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Black walnut myth or truth?

Started by hunz, May 15, 2014, 08:25:59 PM

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hunz

So an older fella I sold some locust to today, asked me if I did portable milling, as he had a couple of black walnut trees down that he'd like to turn into lumber. He asked me if I had heard to buck them up and let sit for a full year before milling to "increase grain appearance and darker color". I myself said that I had never heard of such a thing, and didn't see how allowing a log to sit for a year after being fallen would alter grain appearance or color. I have noted that dryer log ends have a darker appearance compared to fresh sawn lumber. I do know, that it doesnt take long for that lumber to turn the color of its parent dried log end.

He said a sawyer of 50 years had told him this, and he wanted a second opinion on when was a good time to saw them. I said I don't see a need to wait, although I would check with the guys who have experience, and get back to him. I did make a suggestion of anchor seal, hopefully I didn't miss the mark on that one.
Dream as if you'll saw forever; saw as if you'll die today.



2006 Woodmizer LT40D51RA, Husqvarna 372xp, Takeuchi TL140

mesquite buckeye

Sounth like a mythtery to me. ;D :snowball:
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

drobertson

Maybe if they are in a pond?  saw them green and go!  some folks have lots of misconstrued ideas, and what works for some does not mean the norm. 
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

WDH

My Granny also thought that if you killed a snake and hung it on a limb before sundown, it would rain. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

hunz

You guys are hilarious! I got a good laugh from every post, so much so I find myself all too often sharing FF humor with my wife. I am still unsure of her true interest in logs, lumber, and mills, but she must love me enough to listen to it all while acting interested. :D

I let our Jon doe know that all engines are a go for me milling them. Thanks guys!
Dream as if you'll saw forever; saw as if you'll die today.



2006 Woodmizer LT40D51RA, Husqvarna 372xp, Takeuchi TL140

landscraper

About the snake ....

I heard a variant of that - a guy that used to work for me swore that if you killed a snake during the day and _didn't_ hang him in a tree, that the snake would resurrect himself during the night and slither off.  Only by hanging in the tree were you assured of his demise.  I said: what proof have you of this wives tale?  He said: snake is always gone the next day when you leave him on the ground.  I said: maybe a fox or possum or something comes at night and takes him away for a snack?  He said: Hmmm. 

He also used to make a "X" with his finger on the windshield of whatever vehicle he was in whenever he saw any of several items that he deemed unlucky.  Cats, firetrucks, cars with one headlight, stuff like that. 

Nice enough guy, superstitious though I guess.

Sorry that this has nothing to do with walnut but the Snakes and Rain reference made me remember this.
Firewood is energy independence on a personal scale.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

.....and Beets grow REDDER if grown in a CEDAR planter.  :D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

WDH

Hunz,

Good luck on the milling.  If you get tired and need a day off, kill a snake, hang it up before sundown, and you can take a rain day  ;D. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

WoodenHead

Quote from: WDH on May 15, 2014, 09:23:49 PM
Hunz,

Good luck on the milling.  If you get tired and need a day off, kill a snake, hang it up before sundown, and you can take a rain day  ;D. 

Someone must have tried that around here today.  Tomorrow we're supposed to get an inch to an inch and a half of rain.  ::)

taw6243

Quote from: hunz on May 15, 2014, 08:25:59 PM
So an older fella I sold some locust to today, asked me if I did portable milling, as he had a couple of black walnut trees down that he'd like to turn into lumber. He asked me if I had heard to buck them up and let sit for a full year before milling to "increase grain appearance and darker color". I myself said that I had never heard of such a thing, and didn't see how allowing a log to sit for a year after being fallen would alter grain appearance or color. I have noted that dryer log ends have a darker appearance compared to fresh sawn lumber. I do know, that it doesnt take long for that lumber to turn the color of its parent dried log end.

He said a sawyer of 50 years had told him this, and he wanted a second opinion on when was a good time to saw them. I said I don't see a need to wait, although I would check with the guys who have experience, and get back to him. I did make a suggestion of anchor seal, hopefully I didn't miss the mark on that one.
MY REGULAR WALNUT CUSTOMER has me saw his walnut after a year for the darker color also. For the darker sapwood too. So maybe not so easily discounted as myth Huh! And he regularly sells his walnut wholesale to Woodcraft of GrandRapids, Michigan.
Tim
4500 hours on my 2004 LT40HDG28, CBN sharpener and auto setter, 25" woodmaster planer with 9'auto leveling bed and trac vac chip handling system, 1998 L3010 kubota, 2010 L3200 kubota Festool TS75 rail saw with 42", 75" and 106" rails.

Ocklawahaboy

I've heard to let magnolia logs sit, for the same reason.  I've also heard that the fish bites when the owl hoots.

hunz

Quote from: taw6243 on May 15, 2014, 09:30:09 PM
Quote from: hunz on May 15, 2014, 08:25:59 PM
So an older fella I sold some locust to today, asked me if I did portable milling, as he had a couple of black walnut trees down that he'd like to turn into lumber. He asked me if I had heard to buck them up and let sit for a full year before milling to "increase grain appearance and darker color". I myself said that I had never heard of such a thing, and didn't see how allowing a log to sit for a year after being fallen would alter grain appearance or color. I have noted that dryer log ends have a darker appearance compared to fresh sawn lumber. I do know, that it doesnt take long for that lumber to turn the color of its parent dried log end.

He said a sawyer of 50 years had told him this, and he wanted a second opinion on when was a good time to saw them. I said I don't see a need to wait, although I would check with the guys who have experience, and get back to him. I did make a suggestion of anchor seal, hopefully I didn't miss the mark on that one.
MY REGULAR WALNUT CUSTOMER has me saw his walnut after a year for the darker color also. For the darker sapwood too. So maybe not so easily discounted as myth Huh! And he regularly sells his walnut wholesale to Woodcraft of GrandRapids, Michigan.
Tim

Maybe not! I am still not seeing the reasoning as to why it would become darker. Have you noticed a difference in between his "sit for a year walnut", and fresh cut and milled logs in terms of distinguishable color change? Isn't black walnut sapwood undesirable regardless of shade of color?
Dream as if you'll saw forever; saw as if you'll die today.



2006 Woodmizer LT40D51RA, Husqvarna 372xp, Takeuchi TL140

beenthere

QuoteMY REGULAR WALNUT CUSTOMER has me saw his walnut after a year for the darker color also. For the darker sapwood too. So maybe not so easily discounted as myth Huh! And he regularly sells his walnut wholesale to Woodcraft of GrandRapids, Michigan.
Tim

Still a myth, but just one that some truly believe in, so best to go along with it. Leave it to the customer to decide, IMO.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Magicman

Fresh felled Black Walnut has a wonderful greenish purple color when freshly sawed and only us sawyers get to witness it.  When oxygen and sunlight contacts the boards they quickly darken and loose these colors.  It still happens with old dry logs but the change is not as dramatic.  In my opinion the lumber from fresh and old logs will reach the same degree of darkness.  That degree of darkness will vary from tree to tree.  Some are inherently darker/lighter than others.

Now, where is that snake??   ???
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

hackberry jake

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on May 15, 2014, 09:08:50 PM
.....and Beets grow REDDER if grown in a CEDAR planter.  :D
heck, everybody knows that... ::)
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

OffGrid973

My sides are hurting after this post and I am no closer to my walnut answer...thanks for the chuckle, however my other half would not understand the laughter :)
Your Fellow Woodworker,
- Off Grid

reswire

Quote from: WDH on May 15, 2014, 08:50:18 PM
My Granny also thought that if you killed a snake and hung it on a limb before sundown, it would rain.
Yep,,, been there done that.  Actually it worked.... he he
Norwood LM 30, JD 5205, some Stihl saws, 15 goats, 10 chickens, 1 Chessie and a 2 Weiner dogs...

Brad_bb

It's oxidation that makes it dark.  Shouldn't matter if it sits or not.  You might get more end checking by letting it sit.  If it's let sit, seal the ends and keep it in the shade.  The other downside to letting it sit, is that it will be another year before the lumber is usable or sell-able.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

SLawyer Dave

I was taught with black walnut, (as well as oak), burls and stumps to let them sit at least a year or two before slabbing them.  That was not for color purposes, however, but because if you slabbed them when green, the slabs tended to crack and twist a lot more. 

backwoods sawyer

Gary Cohan build up a hardwood buisness back in the 70's that he sold after many years of working with OSU on drying Madrone and developing a wood fired solor kiln.

I spent a quite a bit of time working with Gary on his WM mill while looking for mine. One day he pulled a nice 32 walnut log out of the black berry patch he had dumped it in a year earlier because it had a six inch rind of white sap wood and was not in a hury to mill it. When we opened it up the sap wood was as dark as the rest of it, so we quarter sawded and got some wide QS boards. If the sap had been cut off the volume would not have been even close to the same.

Does every log darken, no, Gary told me he had used this method to improve the value several times over the years. Tucked out of the sun in a miost berry patch seemes to create the right conditions for the color to bleed thru out the sap wood.

And you all can keep yours snakes :snowball: ;D
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Ron Wenrich

I've sawn year old walnut.  We always waited until we had enough walnut to saw for the casket market.  All the veneer was taken off, and they were mainly second cut logs.  Since we were doing mainly woods grown timber, walnut was not a mainstay.  Logs may lay for a long time until we had enough to make a couple of lifts of lumber. 

The sapwood does turn browner.  There isn't as distinct of a line between sapwood and heartwood.  Sapwood amount also seems to be diminished.  Some logs don't take a year, as it would depend on the season.  There is little happening in a log in January in my part of the world.  I also think that the heartwood takes on a darker color when its sitting for awhile.  But, I also find that there are variations through a run of walnut. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

BBTom

I was under the impression that most commercially used Walnut is sawn without regard to sapwood, then steamed in a special kiln to leach the color into the entire board.  I have a distant relative that does truckload after truckload of it.  He must have the formula right because his steaming kilns are always full. 

When compared to the steamed walnut, heartwood of non-steamed walnut is darker and richer color.  Could that difference be what they be chasing?
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

Jemclimber

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on May 16, 2014, 06:22:50 AM

The sapwood does turn browner.  There isn't as distinct of a line between sapwood and heartwood.  Sapwood amount also seems to be diminished.  Some logs don't take a year, as it would depend on the season.  There is little happening in a log in January in my part of the world.  I also think that the heartwood takes on a darker color when its sitting for awhile.  But, I also find that there are variations through a run of walnut. 

+1  Sapwood does turn browner, but depending on timing it can also be blotchy.  I have no idea if letting it sit effects the heartwood because I have no way of seeing what the heartwood would be like if cut right away vs cutting it later and different logs do vary somewhat in color. Most of my walnut logs are cut a year to many years after felling because I have too much on my plate to saw everything as it comes down, and walnut is one wood the will last quite awhile.
lt15

kelLOGg

I sawed walnut for a customer who had let it sit for sometime to allow the "heartwood color to bleed into the sapwood", as he put it. There was less distinction between the two but in his case he let it sit too long because there was some rot.
Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

Ron Wenrich

Commercial walnut is steamed.  There's a couple of reasons for that.  Fresh sawn logs saw easier.  Steamed walnut sapwood turns brown.  Customers want brown heartwood to make standardized furniture, moldings, etc.  It also reduces the need to have capital tied up in a log supply.  Quicker turnover of the dollar.

But, hobby and small time cabinet builders may have a different view of things.  If you are catering to those markets, maybe aging the logs isn't a bad thing, especially if you don't have access to a steam facility. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

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