sawing prices

[REGULAR GUY]

Hope ya'll are doin good and now the weathers breaking ya'll are starting to make money.  I've seen other topics on this, but I'm still kinda new here in SE Mo., so I'll see if I can start to understand.  I've got some neighbors that want me to saw some of their logs. In one case, Oak logs into 1" material (I imagine just flat sawin), in another case their Pine logs into dimensional 2" x 8" boards. What's a fair price to charge per board foot or hourly? Is there any difference on per board foot charge if one were cutting 1" boards or say 8" x 8" (which takes less time)?  On another note, what if it were my logs I was cutting, how do I know what to charge pbf  on the different species and size lumber, (1" boards or beams)?  Thanks ahead of time fellas, and I understand there are variables....I'm just trying to understand them so I can start with a fair and honest reputation.    Thanks again for your time.        Regular Guy

[hackberry jake]

This topic comes up a lot. It depends on your mill and experience. A beginner with a small manual mill isn't worth as much per hour as an experienced sawyer with a hydraulic mill. It seems like 35 cents a board foot is about the average price for sawing but it varies depending on location quite a bit.

[SawyerBrown]

Hey there Regular Guy.

You lead off with a very interesting point ... making money.  That's really what you have to decide, how much do you want, how much are you willing to live with, what's the point that you'd be saving money by staying home!   ;D

You're right, there are a ton of other strings here on the Forum on this topic, but since we're kind of like neighbors I'll just share what I do (since it's all public on my website anyhow ...).

I have 4 charges: 1) travel and set-up: $1.50/mile (only charge one-way), with a $25 minimum; 2) sawing, $0.35/bf based on theoretical bf in the log(s) using average diameter of the small end and International 1/4" scale, assuming I have someone off-loading (otherwise the rate is higher); 3) $25/blade if I hit something non-wood; and 4) $50/hour if I have to get the chainsaw out, set up in a difficult spot, help clear branches, fold laundry, whatever time is not spent running the mill.

#2 will probably be the most varying and controversial.  I don't like charging by the hour because I'm not that good at it yet, and I'd rather do it right than fast.  So I take my time and spend the extra time to consider all possibilities before I make my first cut.  I also charge by the "theoretical" bf rather than actual.  The reason is that, if the customer has a good log, I'm willing to give him a little more for his money and save my time measuring and counting boards, and if he has a bad/mediocre log, he's going to pay me for sawing it up whether he gets much good lumber out of it or not.  Also, if he can give me his log(s) dimensions over the phone, I can quote him pretty close, only needing verification of dimensions.  The other controversy will be the scale, everybody will tell you to use Doyle, but Doyle underestimates the amount of lumber in smaller logs, so you get credit (and paid) for less lumber, and they're as much work to get down to a saw-able cant as the big brothers.  So I just make sure the customer knows, and that's how I do it.

So that's my strategy, and I'm sure you'll get lots of varying opinions and strategies!  Good luck with that first "customer" job!!

[woodmills1]

start out at a dollar per minute for your time, 50 cents per bd for green pine and a buck and a half for oak from your logs.  You will get and keep customers.  Once in a while give a repeat customer sitckers or and extra board or 2

[Magicman]

Adding your sawmill to your profile helps with answering questions such as this.   ???

[customsawyer]

Another factor is your location. Prices very greatly depending on where you are located.

[Tom the Sawyer]

Regular Guy,

As others have mentioned, the more information in your profile, the appropriate the comments may be.  A search of "board foot vs.hourly" should yield many pages of reading.  I would assume that you already have some experience running your sawmill, whatever type it is.  I would highly recommend keeping detailed records if you are not doing so.   

Whether we charge by the hour, by the board foot, or some combination - most of us have a pretty good idea of our 'equivalent' rates.  If milling "average" logs into 4/4 lumber I know that my .45 p/bf rate means that I am grossing about $80 p/hr.  Even if they are a little more difficult I'm still making a rate that covers my costs and a reasonable profit.  If you charge $60 p/hr. and routinely put out 220 bf p/hour then you then you are working pretty cheap.

If you don't know what it actually costs you to operate your mill you may think you are being 'competitive' and find out that you are operating in the red.  It is highly unlikely that your competition has the same operating expenses that you do.  Some time totaling up your expenses and figuring your overhead will really help you figure out what to charge.

I was a client of several milling operations for 25 years before I got my mill.  I always preferred being charged by the board foot.  I could scale a log (International 1/4") and have a pretty good idea of the costs once I knew the p/bf rate.  There were times when I was charged by the hour and was in for a big surprise.  It levels the playing field for variations in experience and equipment.

As for milling your own logs (I do not sell my own timber, logs that I do provide are ones that I have purchased or otherwise 'obtained'), they should be worth what equivalent logs would cost delivered to your mill.  If similar logs to yours would cost you $600 p/1000 Doyle, delivered to your location, yours should have the same value.   

From seedling to a delivered piece of furniture, there are many steps in the process and each step adds value to the product.  If you provide your own logs you have earned several 'value-added' increments.  A simple business formula is: Sale price = cost of materials + cost of operations + profit.  Each step in the process should pay it's way.   

Some of us list our prices on our websites.  Click on the world symbol under a member's name to check out their websites.

[dboyt]

If you bid different prices per board foot depending on species and thickness, it will soon get too complicated for your customers.  Keep it simple-- at most, one price for hardwoods, and one for softwoods.  I generally charge by the hour, but occasionally charge by the job, if cutting  a customer's logs.  International 1/4" scale + 14% hits it pretty close for a band saw, when estimating volume from logs.  I work backwards from there.  If I figure a job will take 10 hours and there are about 1,400 board feet (Norwood manual mill), and I need to charge $60/hr, I estimate $600/1,400 bd ft, or $.43/bd ft.  An estimate may be off by 10% plus or minus,  but a bid is hard and fast, and I seldom bid on a job.  If I provide the logs, I charge close to what the local flooring mill pays.

Small logs take longer per bd ft to load & clamp, and logs that max out your mill are a pain.  To paraphrase MagicMan's advice on a similar thread, focus on quality.  That will give you more jobs and satisfied customers than competing on price.

[Joe Hillmann]

As far a charging a different price for oak and pine. You should keep in mind that a fresh cut oak log is very wet and cuts much easier than you might expect.  Also a fresh cut pine tree may be full of pitch which gums up your blade and makes it much harder to cut.  Also there are some types of pine that are just known for being hard to cut, so charging less for softwood may not be the best idea.

When it comes to cutting 1 inch lumber verses larger lumber cutting the 1 inch lumber isn't that much more work than the larger lumber.  No matter what you are cutting out of the log you have to get the log on to the mill and squared up into a cant.  Which is quite a bit of work,  and the outside cuts where you are removing the bark are the cuts that damage the blade the most.  Once you have a cant if you are cutting 1 inch lumber you just start cutting away.  If you are cutting larger pieces you my end up doing a lot of rolling of the cant to get the pieces you want.  Larger lumber is also heavier so it is more work to get it off the mill.  If you have someone wanting really small stuff it may make sense to charge more per bdft.

[backwoods sawyer]

Every sawmill is diferent from make, model, to lay out and product.
To set an hourly rate for hardwood I took the lower end of the going rate of bft ($.30) for softwoods (bft rates seem to range from $.25 up to $.55 depending on area) and averaged my production over a period of time, that gave me a rate of $60 hr. Whiched matched other mills in the area.

With changes to my operation I noticed my hr rate was not keeping up with my bft production so I adjusted my hr rate to $75. A change of a nickle a bft would add $12.50 per hour to my rate.

I have milled for customers that have hired smaller mills at $40 hr and their bft cost was closer to a $.75 bft as the production just was not there.

Find a balance with your hr rate and bft rate that both you and your customers can live with.

[backwoods sawyer]

When it comes to cutting 1 inch lumber verses larger lumber cutting the 1 inch lumber isn't that much more work than the larger lumber.  No matter what you are cutting out of the log you have to get the log on to the mill and squared up into a cant.  Which is quite a bit of work,  and the outside cuts where you are removing the bark are the cuts that damage the blade the most.  Once you have a cant if you are cutting 1 inch lumber you just start cutting away.  If you are cutting larger pieces you my end up doing a lot of rolling of the cant to get the pieces you want.  Larger lumber is also heavier so it is more work to get it off the mill.  If you have someone wanting really small stuff it may make sense to charge more per bdft.

[hacknchop]

I mostly charge by the bd ft of product put out no, need of a log scale except for comparing overun. I have charged by the hour sometimes only on account of the fact that most are more inclined to help out when it cost them not to.As far as how much to charge, we need to remember what the value of our product is.We need to keep in mind that if after cutting and hauling logs out and then paying for sawing and in some cases grading,someone might see same product for sale cheaper or even near the same price and be very unlikely to repeat as a customer,this could ruin our own livelyhoods.We  need to make lots of money but not all of it off the one customer.

[Joe Hillmann]

I mostly charge by the bd ft of product put out no, need of a log scale except for comparing overun. I have charged by the hour sometimes only on account of the fact that most are more inclined to help out when it cost them not to.As far as how much to charge, we need to remember what the value of our product is.We need to keep in mind that if after cutting and hauling logs out and then paying for sawing and in some cases grading,someone might see same product for sale cheaper or even near the same price and be very unlikely to repeat as a customer,this could ruin our own livelyhoods.We  need to make lots of money but not all of it off the one customer.

For some items such as 2x4's you are right, by the time you figure in their work plus the cost of having logs milled and graded the customer may be money ahead to buy from a lumber yard.  That doesn't mean you should charge any less.  It means you should direct your customer to having things other than 2x4's cut.  If you cut the items that are much more expensive to buy at lumber yards, that is where your customer comes out money ahead.  Of course that requires the customer having good enough logs to make them out of.

[Magicman]

I charge the same bf or hourly rate for all dimensions or species.  No more, no less, no matter what and it all balances out in the end.  Simple and it works for me.

[Dave Shepard]

Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to charge enough to get people to stop bringing me logs. :

[SawyerBrown]

Wow, Dave, nice problem to have!!