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Question on homemade bandsaw head lift

Started by Swatson, May 11, 2014, 11:58:44 AM

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Swatson

I am in the process of upgrading my homemade bandmill.  I started using it with a 5 hp single phase electric motor.  It does okay for small stuff and I probably cut about 4000 bdft of various wood with it.  I cut about 1000 bd ft of walnut recently and as long as the blade was really really sharp it did okay but there really wasn't enough power and it took forever.  Recently I came across a 20hp three cylinder diesel relatively cheap ($700) and I am going to put it on my mill.  Now it weighs about 350 lbs where as my old electric motor weighed about 100 lbs.  Would a cable hoist be adequate for lifting the head with a much bigger engine?  I don't really like the cable hoist because its not real accurate but when it comes to maybe doing a roller chain lift I'm kinda lost on the mechanics.  Acme thread is a possibility but I don't want it to be too spendy.



 

I did order Cook's 1.5 inch roller guide complete retrofits.  Ive heard really good things about those and they would be leaps and bounds above my present bearing setup.  I am going to rebuild the carriage so making changes to the lift wont be a big deal if I can get a good picture in my head.



    

Biggest question I have is I guess do I stick with the cable hoist or look to acme or roller chain?

By the way the mill only cost me $100 dollars to build.  I used nearly all my good "junk" to build it.  All I had to buy for it was a pulley and a new belt. 
I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

ladylake

 I just visited a Amish mill yesterday that had a crank up -down head with a counter weight that cranked up with very little effort.  Also a torsion type garage door spring or 2  would help a lot.    Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

backwoods sawyer

Don't be afraid of a chain lift with a simple "S" drive system.
two idlers that allow a loop in the chain for a set back drive sprocket anchor both ends of the chain and the drive walks up or down the chain.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Swatson

Quote from: backwoods sawyer on May 11, 2014, 12:46:37 PM
Don't be afraid of a chain lift with a simple "S" drive system.
two idlers that allow a loop in the chain for a set back drive sprocket anchor both ends of the chain and the drive walks up or down the chain.

I know what your are talking about with the "S" drive.  Simple to build but How would you lock the head in place?  And would you need to build in some mechanical advantage?
I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

VictorH

Welcome to the forum Swatson!!  Can't help you on your lift but I would encourage some guards on that mill.  At a $100 bucks yours may just be the best valued mill on here.

Delawhere Jack

Welcome to the FF Swatson. I'll second Ladylake about the hand winch and counterweight idea. The counterweight would not need to equal the weight of the sawhead, just use enough that it makes using the winch manageable. In fact, with a little (200-300lbs) difference it should help the sawhead "settle in" better. A ratcheting hand winch is also much easier to set at precise heights.

Oh yeah...... get some guards on that mill.....soon.  ;)

Swatson

I actually do have guards for it.....the picture is a little old and I haven't taken any recent ones since it is in pieces right now waiting for the retrofit.  Maybe the hand winch I have now is a little more finicky than it needs to be because I have issues getting it set within a tenth of an inch of where I want it.  I have a ways to go before I settle on a lift system.  This week I am working on mounting the motor in a frame.  Trying to make it a self contained unit so I can pull the motor off easily as an assembly and set it off to the side or hook it to an armature if needed (had a nasty ice storm in '09 and lost power for two weeks).
I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

hackberry jake

I have some 1.5" acme threaded rod. Just hit me up if you need it. I'd let it go pretty cheap. Also have two sets of nuts for them.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

Magicman

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Swatson.
Quote from: Swatson on May 11, 2014, 01:07:42 PMSimple to build but How would you lock the head in place?  And would you need to build in some mechanical advantage? 
A wormgear would keep it locked. 

Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

21incher

If you have room you could always add another set of pulleys to double the power and accuracy of the hand winch you now use.
Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, a logrite cant hook and a bread machine. And a Kubota Sidekick with a Defective Subaru motor.

coastlogger

I have the 2 acme threaded rods setup and am very happy with it.Have a hydraulic motor to power it,quite fast and deadly accurate. Cranking by hand not so good,I tried it for awhile then arranged for power. LOTS of cranking esp if youre cutting thru and thru(basically thru and thru is an impossibility if youre cranking by hand,you need to remove each board as its cut)
clgr

leroy in kansas

Welcome to the form.

It looks to me like it would be pretty easy to double the cable, which will increase the accuracy. And as said, a garage door spring wound around the shaft your rolling the cable on. Watch those springs when ya wind, they'll get ya. I know this after getting knocked off the ladder.

sawdust joe

I think puting a 300lb. motor on the frame you have in photos will not work so well. 
It needs to be beefed up quite a bit . I personaly like the roller chain method.using garage door torshion spring as a helper Take note of cooks saw they use a break with the hand crank assembly as a locking device. Welcom to the forum and happy sawing.
Sawdust joe

redprospector

Quote from: Magicman on May 11, 2014, 07:31:10 PM
Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Swatson.
Quote from: Swatson on May 11, 2014, 01:07:42 PMSimple to build but How would you lock the head in place?  And would you need to build in some mechanical advantage? 
A wormgear would keep it locked.
You hit the nail on the head Magicman.
I put a worm drive on my mill when I built it. It never moves once I stop it. The worm drive actually gives you a mechanical advantage through the gear ratio, you just have to keep it greased good. Mine is hydraulic driven, but could be hand driven pretty easy.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

Swatson

Quote from: sawdust joe on May 11, 2014, 09:42:40 PM
I think puting a 300lb. motor on the frame you have in photos will not work so well. 
It needs to be beefed up quite a bit .

I agree....thats why I am rebuilding the carriage.  The saw head I am actually happy with.  It has worked well except I am going to replace the underweight 1" axle with a 1.5" inch truck axle.  With the one inch drive axle I could not put enough tension on the blade.  The truck axle is made from much better steel than the shaft I was using and I don't think the small shaft was even heat treated (it was off an old Massey Ferguson manure spreader).

I do appreciate all the input from you guys.  Got the wheels turning in my head now.
I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

kelLOGg

A roller chain, gearing and handcrank/brake (extreme right) can be seen here on my MP32.
Bob

 
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

36 coupe

Might be easier to use a larger electric motor and keep a sharp blade on the mill.Looks like you will have to do a rebuild for the diesel engine anyway.

EZ

I used a 2000 lb warn winch on my lift. I removed the cable and put a chain spocket on the in side of the drum. I split. The spocket in half and bolted it on. It's been like that for a12 yrs now and no problems with it. It's fast up and down and the head stops where you want it.                                 
Ez.

MSSawmill

Quote from: Swatson on May 11, 2014, 01:07:42 PM
Quote from: backwoods sawyer on May 11, 2014, 12:46:37 PM
Don't be afraid of a chain lift with a simple "S" drive system.
two idlers that allow a loop in the chain for a set back drive sprocket anchor both ends of the chain and the drive walks up or down the chain.

I know what your are talking about with the "S" drive.  Simple to build but How would you lock the head in place?  And would you need to build in some mechanical advantage?

Someone explain the S drive to me or point me to a diagram/picture of it, please? Advantages/disadvantages of the acme rod over a chain lift? We're probably going to be rebuilding our mill head this summer because of... well... several problems with the design, and I'm going to be looking for a better lift idea, too.
Home-built bandsaw mill
2004 Kubota M110 with LA1301 loader

leroy in kansas

Quote from: MSSawmill on May 21, 2014, 02:20:46 PM
Quote from: Swatson on May 11, 2014, 01:07:42 PM
Quote from: backwoods sawyer on May 11, 2014, 12:46:37 PM
Don't be afraid of a chain lift with a simple "S" drive system.
two idlers that allow a loop in the chain for a set back drive sprocket anchor both ends of the chain and the drive walks up or down the chain.

I know what your are talking about with the "S" drive.  Simple to build but How would you lock the head in place?  And would you need to build in some mechanical advantage?

Someone explain the S drive to me or point me to a diagram/picture of it, please? Advantages/disadvantages of the acme rod over a chain lift? We're probably going to be rebuilding our mill head this summer because of... well... several problems with the design, and I'm going to be looking for a better lift idea, too.

Swatson, I'm going to be working on the lift mechanism for the swing saw build soon. I'll put up some pics that may help.

backwoods sawyer

The first one is the feed chain on the wm


 
This is the up down drive looking from the bottom up


 
This is the up down on the Cooks


 
Hope these give you some idea of how s drives can be configured.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

york

Backwoods sawyer,ok i can see lift chain,going over the lift shaft,then to first idler sprocket,then on to 2nd idler sprocket,then this is where i am lost with the S lift system,could you please show another pic. how the chain ends up or is taken up as the saw head lifts,thanks Albert
Albert

backwoods sawyer

 On the WM lift chain it is simply anchored on each end and the sprocket climbs and lowers on the chain.

The Cooks is a bit more involved it anchoers to "4" points on the saw head, and one shaft turns to raise and lower all at the same time. To take up slack on the other end of the cables they attach to a spring then a cable that goes to a pully and end with enough wraps on the same shaft.
This system has a tendency to jump a cog if you do something like lower the saw on the end of the log or lower head with the saw in the wood or any other time slack is generated in any one of the four chains. All picture are of just one side (2 chains) as the other side is set up the same way.


 


 


 


 


Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

york

Backwoods,thanks for bringing me up to speed,good pictures.....
Albert

Swatson

Okay been a long summer.  I feel bad for posting this thread then disappearing for so long but I had a good reason.  Had a son born in July.  Rebuilding the bandsaw fell off my list of priorities.  I just acquired some steel so I'm back to planning.
I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

5quarter

Swatson...Glad to see you back. congrats on the birth of your son.  8) 8)
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

Swatson


Making good progress.  I need to break out the camera before dark but that is when the work stops.  I need to put in some more braces here and there but I am a visual guy so I like to see what I have and what fits where before I plan to far ahead.  It turned out to be way heavier than I planned it to be but better err on the heavy side than the bendy side.

[]


I should have the basic design complete this week some time.  I need to find a suitable pulley for a tension belt clutch as the ones I have are universal and too deep to let a belt slip when slack.  Used a modified electric winch to lift the beast and doubled the pulleys to halve the lift effort.
I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

beenthere

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Swatson

Quote from: beenthere on October 21, 2014, 11:36:03 PM
What size cable do you use to lift it?

The cable is about 3/8ths diameter.  It came on the 2500 lb winch and was actually a good quality cable for its size.  It was not as stiff as some 3/8 cable I have in the shop.  I put a scale under the head assembly and it weighs in at a hefty 975 pounds so far.  Using the cable at four points to lift puts the strain on each cable well within the rated load of the cable.  I welded some stops onto the upright beams so that in case of catastrophic failure the thing wont slam into the bed and hopefully the worst that would happen is a busted band.
I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

blade69001

 I have no idea how to tag this post so I can finish reading it later so I am posting to bookmark it.
Just being me, But it is ok you do not have to like me.

beenthere

You just tagged it by replying to it.
Then at anytime, you can go to your personal page and click on your Posts to pick out the one you replied to. Voila!
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

CaseyK

Great pics Swatson,
What size and type main motor did you go with?
Home built automated twin blade

Ga Mtn Man

Quote from: blade69001 on October 23, 2014, 04:56:14 PM
I have no idea how to tag this post so I can finish reading it later so I am posting to bookmark it.

...or you could just click "ADD BOOKMARK" at the bottom of the thread. :)
"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

thecfarm

BOOKMARK it! I have about 50 that are bookmarked. Than go to the Menu Bar,starts out with Home,Help,Search.Hover the mouse over Profile and a drop down menu will appear with Bookmark,click onto to Bookmark and that's where it will be. Much easier to find there than go through all my past threads.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

hackberry jake

Swatson, you aren't too far away from me. Maybe I could come over and check out your build one day.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

blade69001

Well lookie there a button that say "Add bookmark" sometimes I really am blond.
Sean P.
Just being me, But it is ok you do not have to like me.

Swatson

Quote from: CaseyK on October 23, 2014, 06:00:27 PM
Great pics Swatson,
What size and type main motor did you go with?

Casey, the motor is an Isuzu 3 cylinder diesel that came out of a tow behind generator.  It is rated at 18 hp and since its a diesel it will be heavy on the torque side which is good for this.  I picked it up for 700 dollars off of Craigslist and after pricing some little gas V-twins I decided this was a steal.  The purr of a diesel sure does make this mill sound mean.
I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

Swatson

Quote from: hackberry jake on October 23, 2014, 08:10:45 PM
Swatson, you aren't too far away from me. Maybe I could come over and check out your build one day.

Sure thing!  Another week or so and I should be there.  These days getting shorter are really cutting into my build time.
I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

CaseyK

Swatson, what size tires do you have on your mill? What is your max log diameter & what size blade did you use?
Home built automated twin blade

CaseyK

For a good video showing an S wrap do a google search on:
A close up look at my home made portable twin blade ...
Video for homebuilt twin blade sawmill► 6:24► 6:24
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooi0iFTlrK8
Jun 10, 2014 - Uploaded by Buddhanz1
He has 2 s wraps on each side but it looks like it would be overkill for a bandmill.
Home built automated twin blade

Swatson

Quote from: CaseyK on October 25, 2014, 03:22:06 PM
Swatson, what size tires do you have on your mill? What is your max log diameter & what size blade did you use?
I use some trailer tires, they have 14 inch rims and with the tires it gives the wheels a 21 inch diameter. I bought some weld on stub axles for the wheels, One side uses the original hub and bearings (idle side) and the drive side I used the hub and just put some weld on hubs that they use for sprockets or pulleys to match my shaft size.


Here is a picture.  The hubs for weld on pulleys take a little bit of grinding to get a good fit but this is what I did on my old mill and it worked fine for more than a year.  I upped my shaft size from 1" to 1.5" this time so I had to rework the old hub with some new weld ons.

Welding steel to cast iron is pretty tough and not completely reliable but I did weld it after heating the cast iron hub up real hot and I got a decent weld and using the locks on the weld on hubs will keep the works together even if my weld breaks.  I recommend using 5 lug hubs instead of the 4 lug hubs.

As far as blade size I am using 1.5 in wide lennox blades that I used on my old bandmill.  I wish I could tell you more details but I have long since forgotten the specs.  I will say that they were recommended for lower powered mills (I was using a 5 horse electric at the time).  I am going to order some more soon and will get some that have a bit more offset since I have more power available now.  As far as length goes I can run anything from 12.5 feet to 16 feet (I built my tension arm long and rigid) so I have plenty of options. 

As far as guides go I have some Cook's rollers that I used on my old mill and they are going onto the new one.  I will try to remember to post some pictures in the next couple days.  I have the works complete I just need to work out my drive belt system and I will be making sawdust really soon.

I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

Swatson

Sorry Casey I forgot about log size and Im going to say 34"-36" would be the max but I dont come across those sizes.  I did cut a 28 inch walnut on my old one and it had the same track spacing. 
I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

CaseyK

For your belt drive system are you going to go with a clutch system (centrifical or electric) or with a belt tensionersystem. I am building a twin blade saw with a 4cyl 30ish HP motor and looks like i am going to go with some type of belt tensioner system to engage and disengage the power. Im off the coast of brasil for another 2-1/2 weeks but lookinh forward to hopefully completing my sawmill the first week back home. Also if you are going to use a belt tensioner are you going to apply tension from the outside or inside of the belt?
Home built automated twin blade

Swatson

I am going to use a belt tensioner for now.  I am going to work on it today so ill have to get back to you on which way I went.  I dont have it completely worked out in my head yet.
I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

Swatson

Anyone have any idea for a belt tensioner that is of the lockover kind?  Where you pull the lever and spring tension keeps the belt engaged.  Ive searched through probably 40 post on here and havent found what im looking for yet.  Ive found a couple ratchet type but the self locking type is what im looking for.  My system will have the idler inside the belt travel and pull down on the slack side of the belt.
I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

Swatson

I am getting so close I can taste it!  All I need now is to fabricate some guards and get my log holding setup complete.



I made a critical error when wiring the motor controls and put them all on the opposite side of all adjustments, so I have to move those else Ill run my self ragged.  I painted all adjustments and linkages red, only because I ran out of black paint...but it is what it is...only for rust control.



The time change is gonna really slow me down.  It gets dark just as I pull into the drive but Ill squeeze some time in somewhere.  I acquired a non functioning stainless steel commercial fryer from a local restaurant when it shut down for free.  Looks like the side panels from it are just about the perfect size for making guards over the tires.



I used a top link to adjust the blade tilt angle.   It is overkill for the job but it has been hanging in the shop for nearly ten years now.  I didn't know they made top links with 5/8ths holes but obviously they do and I needed 3/4.  I was tired of seeing it do nothing.  Now it does next to nothing but hold the blade angle...



I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

fishpharmer

Swatson good use of toplink bar.  I look forward to seeing the fryer guards too.  Well done.

Won't be long till your done.  Anyway you can rig up some lights to work on the mill?  I now remember running into the same problem of no daylight after work.

Keep up the good work.
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

slider32

Can you give a few more details how you did the idler/clutch system.  I can see the lever, does it just flip down and put enough tension on the belt to drive the bandwheels?  Do I see some threaded rod in there to make adjustments on it?

Thanks.

DMcCoy

Swatson - I used a 'cam over' or 'toggle over'.   

 

The arm that moves the idler is in the slack position in this picture.  When I flip the lever @180 it goes past top dead center and then rests in that position by resting on the metal that hold the closest bearing.  Belt tension is adjustable in increments by moving the bolt on the right end of the arm into different holes.  The idler pulley came off a lawn mower and is fastened onto 1 sq tubing and that bracket rides on 3/4 sq tubing.

Swatson

That is essentially what I used.  Once the lever passes below the center line of the rod connecting the tensioner it locks into place.  The tension from the belt holds it in place.  My brother actually came up with the design.  His kids had some K'nex building blocks and I knew the basic concept so he tinkered with a way for it to work in the orientation I needed it.   The all thread link in the picture on mine is just to adjust the tension as the belt stretches.
I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

DMcCoy

I see it now - the red handle and red connecting rod.

Swatson

My lever is not quite as tidy and compact as yours is.  That is a good looking saw you have going on there.  If I ever manage to come across some good cast iron pulleys I am going to redo mine just like you have them with the pillow blocks in the front and rear.  I imagine it would be a little tougher to adjust to get the wheels in the same plane but that is a much more robust design than I could use with my trailer tires. 
I cant figure out which one I like better: working with wood or making the tools to work with wood.

William1961

Quote from: kelLOGg on May 12, 2014, 06:31:13 AM
A roller chain, gearing and handcrank/brake (extreme right) can be seen here on my MP32.
Bob

 

Hello
What are the gear ratio on the carriage hand crank.

The sprockets are #40?
The amount of teeth on each stroke the would be nice to know.
I am building a bandsaw sawmill that I also want a electric reduction gearbox lift with also the manual crank as a back up.
Any help or advice would be appreciated.

Kbeitz

Wheelchair motors ... They work great for this.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

kelLOGg

Wm1961,

Here are some pics with the no. of teeth on each gear. The gearmotor is made by Wagner Electric and I was told that it was probably made as a tarp motor for trucks. I got it from the Surplus Center but they no longer carry it. The gear with 14 teeth is not shown and is behind the 60 tooth gear and its chain lifts the sawhead. The hand crank (radius 5.5") has a tight belt whose only function is for friction to stop and hold the sawhead. The head descends by gravity turning the motor backwards. All chains are #40. In my design process I measured the force needed to turn the hand crank and calculated the torque (force in lbs x distance [5.5"] ) and selected an appropriate gear motor.) I added all this about 12 years ago and have had no problems with it. If I can dig up anything else just ask.

There was an earlier thread on the subject:
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,16775.0.html

Bob



  

 
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

William1961

Bob
Thanks for the sprocket info.
Will be buying those.
Much appreciated.
William.

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