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tough choices on old Black Cherry trees

Started by GlennCz, May 03, 2014, 08:21:03 PM

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GlennCz

So I purchased and moved onto this property 17 years ago which had 60 acres of timber on it, and it had never been sawed since being clear cut long ago.  I had a few foresters on it, and one did an inventory for me 10 years ago for tax basis purposes.  I ended up starting and then finishing a cut 9 years with a logger, after meeting him in the chainsaw store.  I went with him because he seemed like someone I could work with and he was willing to work according to my wishes.  And he did!  He's been pleasure to work with.  So the first go around my philosophy was cut out the crappy trees that were worth something but crowding the nice mediums.  And I took 1/3rd of the nice cherries, always trying to take the ones that seemed defective and let the good one alone.   The maples were easier to decide on, because there was more of a crowd and some for sure had to go.  (2:1 soft vs hard).

He called me once or twice the last few years, but not too  much, and then a few weeks ago said we have to take a walk.  I don't want to cut down any of these trees because I live here and treasure this place every single day.   But, also, I see no reason to let $$$ rot away in my woods. 

We mark one area at a time(10 areas divided by roads) and playfully discuss every tree we mark.  We are probably about 25% done and may end up marking 450 trees. 

The problem is I can see a lot of where my logger is right.  I see no reason to cut down a tree that may??? be putting on woods and enhances my forest and hopefully the $/ft price and quality is going up.  But I am realizing there is a downside to that too!  I have my 2005 price sheet and soft maple prices the same, hard has gone up a big, and the Prime X cherry has dropped to 1/2 of what it was.  That's the grade below veneer and that hurts on many of these nice butt logs with a lot of bd/ft to them!  Prime grade cherry has gone up a bit, 15%, and the #1's have gone down 20%, but that's really not where the money is.

But here is the problem.  We are cutting down some/many? of these big trees and I can see where my logger is right.  Some butt logs have red rot in them, some have shake, some even have holes.  He shows me how the woodpeckers are pecking at them, and he had a top with a perfect example of dead limbs ruining the wood and deep woodpeckers seen when it was laying down.  Then he had another tree (smaller trunk near the top) where the woodpeckers ringed it, you could see the scar circled the tree.  He cut straight through it and you could see he was absolutely right, the tree has all kind of marks growing into it, which the grader wouldn't like, and the tree was simply starting to die.  I guess this slow death is happening to all us woodsman at middle age, but with a timber, at some point it is time to put it out of its' misery and take the money and run!

Another thing the woodpeckers do, he shows me the cherry sap gum coming out of the tree, apparently where the woodpeckers are going at it.  Many times near the base of the tree? He tells me, the woodpeckers like to go after the trees that are dying (although slowly), sort of like the deer seem to like to eat the weakest plants in my landscaping.  We have pilliated and sapsuckers running around this place.  And suckers are another thing.  I notice my big healthy cherries with the wide canopies, don't have the suckers.  While the small ones or even mediums that never really got going, are having more suckers and they also have what he calls a scrunched top.  Probably because crowding or whatever they never took over their space in the canopy to be the king of that patch.  But now that there older, old age is coming quick and slow death is starting. It's time to go???

The maple are easier to figure out.  Although they have their problems too.  I had a huge hard maple on one of my well traveled roads/paths, that I kept last time because it was so nice, but we cut that and it has a big hold in the bottom.  A bunch of the soft maples he cut today had what he called wormy wood.  The maples are easier to figure out because there are a lot of small/medium that will take take the place of what i cut now.  (in most places)

I know it's easy to say, you should have had a forester or get a forester, but at this point, that is simply is not going to happen.  And I have no regrets because I really think I did a pretty good job in being patient, cutting timber, yet leaving my forest intact and restoring it after the first 2005 cut.  We are marking more trees tomorrow. 

My problem is that part of me say, maybe I should take almost all the bigger ones now.  They are mature, and most of them likely have at least a good of a chance in going down a grade as they do going up a grade and getting larger.  But as these logs pile up on the landing, I see more and more where he may be right, some of these trees should have been cut 9 years ago.  But also, i tell him, on the other hand, many of these trees grew and put on wood and are still nice. 

But this is my situation as it stands.  I enjoy my relationship with my logger, he listens to my final decision, he don't paint unless I wave my hand and say paint! And he has plenty of work here in any event.  But of course, as there should be, there is always a bit of skepticism on my part.  Because if it was up to me, I'd leave them all there, and enjoy my big woods, and cut them after they grow bigger, but will they?  I know this is impossible to answer w/o seeing my woods, but thanks for reading this if you got this far!!

mesquite buckeye

When they start to get decadent, they don't put on much growth and they may actually rotting faster than they are growing. :-\

I've been taking it real easy on the cutting in my woods for 23 years now and I can see where it is catching up with me. We are probably approaching mature cut/ clearcut  time in some spots. That will open up space, but it is still sad to see the big old ones go.

On the other hand, my neighbor across the fence has a bunch of trees that are very hard to get to from his farm at the bottom of a bluff right next to my property line. There were many big-huge old red oaks there in the 30-48" dbh range in 1990. They were never harvested and now most have hollowed out fallen and rotted. If you didn't look for them and didn't know they were there at one time, they would hardly be noticed. New and smaller trees have filled all the spaces. There is a maximum size and lifespan for trees, just as there is for us.

I think the challenge for someone who cares for the land, as well as someone who would like to get some money from it without depleting the forest is to read the signs the trees give to us that are clues hinting when it is time for them to cash in their chips and let a new generation take over. Learning those clues can take a lifetime. bon_fire
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

thecfarm

Sounds like you are doing a good job taking care of your land. I kinda went through the same thing here. My big trees was white pine. I grew up with the forest looking a certain way. Sure don't look that way now. But it had to be done,or Mother Nature would have done it for me.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ron Wenrich

Wormy maple is wood with ambrosia streaks in it.  Depending on markets, those sell at a lower price.  Chances are, most of the woodlot has it.

I wonder what the woodpeckers are after?  Do you have gum streak in the cherry?  That's caused by cambium miners.  I believe its caused by the peach borer.  They also attack trees at the base, which says something about those woodpeckers at the base of the trees.  Logging slash left after spring and early summer logging are harbingers for those miners.  Log now and you have a better chance of getting those miners in the residual cherry.  Sometimes timing is everything.

Is the red rot mainly in the smaller trees with "scrunched" tops?  That would indicate that the trees are under stress.  It could be due to being too thick.  It might be a little late for release on those trees.  Trees grow through crown expansion.  If you don't give the crown enough room to expand, growth will be suppressed and the trees will be under stress.  Decline can follow.

Another option would be to open some small clearings to allow the next cherry generation to begin.  Maybe a plot in a couple of your areas so that you can expand them as you continue with the management style.  You would have to take care of some precommercial thinning to get the desired species mix as the stand gets established. 

The big spike that happened in the cherry markets many years ago was due to European markets.  There was a ban on imported rain forest woods and their alternative was to use cherry.  It made a jump in prices with the increased demand.  Economic conditions in Europe as well as the US has brought the demand down, is my guess.  All markets are cyclical, and I remember when maple was labeled as a junk wood not too many years ago.  I was also around when red oak was considered junk wood. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

GlennCz

Thanks Ron.  I know you really know your timber!  I think I might have talked to you on the phone a long time ago. 

re: scrunched tops - I think one of my problems is that this place was ready for a thinning cut when I purchased it in 1997.  A good portion of my cherries don't have that nice wide canopy.  But the ones I really prize do (not too many) When I bought this property I was totally green about land management.  I was busy putting in roads, working a Forest Stewardship Plan with fern control and Woodcock habitat and of course working on my house/yard.  I say 60 acres, it's larger than that, but i have some grown over fields and a swamp, but of the 60a, probably 15-20 are a hemlock forest.

This is a nice cherry with lots of shake!


This is the piece from log above my logger cut off that was laying around the stump. Of course he loves to show me this stuff!!!  I guess I should say Thank You.


One with a small hole starting in it


The bad boys had at this one!  Just imagine taking your sharpest screwdriver and your biggest hammer and trying to reproduce this hole.


Hard to see they their pecks in this pic, but you can see they totally ruined this piece.  My question is, how far down the tree does this damage go?


This one woke me up to the fact my logger is not just messing with me!  This is the top of a maple, small diameter, that was ringed, and healed over.  Like old barbed wire scars I found on my property line.  He cut right through the ring to show me the dead wood inside.


This is from another cut about 6 inches away from the peck ring. Showing the dead wood spreading(upper left).  But of course the grader doesn't miss this stuff.


One of my wormy maples


But This Is What We Are Talking About (I hope)

thecfarm

Looks like you got it.
That does not look good.  :(
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

chester_tree _farmah

Yeah bummer. So would taking core samples be a valid way to check these  trees guys?  The ones you keep would heal over.  Would the ones you take now be ruined by a sample? I mean the obvious ones u know should go but the ones that seem pretty healthy and look decent health wise.  Just curious?
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

GlennCz

Here is an example of a woodpecker ringing a maple, it's like the tree sawed through above.  This particular tree really isn't that big anyway, I guess that part could be cut out if it was to be harvested, but does something like eventually ruin a tree?



Sap oozing out of black cherry from bird peck.


it's me against the birds, and so far they are winning.


what is this redness that is on many of my cherries and to a lesser extent the maples.  there is no mass to it, is this bad?


this one is fascinating.  they hit this tree so hard that the sap actually pooled at the bottom of it, this is on the ground.


yummy for woodpeckers


the cherries in the lowland, wet area with hemlocks have a thick bulky wider bark.  most haven't done so well, but there are a few good ones.

Ron Wenrich

I'm still of the opinion that the damage of the base of the cherry is peach borers.  What I read is that they like to nest there, and that causes a lot of sap to ooze out.  If there is woodpecker damage, it would be that they're after the larvae. 

Woodpeckers go mainly after trees with rot or decay in them.  That would make it secondary damage, as the bugs are in the rotting area.  Especially carpenter ants.  If you have woodpecker damage, they have to be going after something that is in the wood.

Sapsuckers can be a problem.  I've read, the best control is to leave the trees with the damage, not take them.  It gives them a favored tree that they've been using as a feed source.  Take it away and they'll go to an unaffected tree.

The maple isn't what I call wormy.  Usually it has gray streaks when its sawed out.  That would be a gray dot on the end of the log.

Why is the heart so off center in the cherry log with shake?  Was there some sort of damage to the base of the tree?  Sometimes you get that with logging damage.  It doesn't look like much, but ends up messing up butt logs in the years to come.  Sometimes that can be bucked off, and not cause much more than some volume loss.  Unfortunately, its the high value volume.

Can't help you out too much with the redness in the bark.  Bark tends to look different in various areas of the range.  Sometimes it means something.  I remember a logger telling me that white oak that has flat spots on the bark usually ended up having glass worm.  He also said white oak and pine/hemlock often cut out wormy. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

GlennCz

At the landing today my logger was showing me the off center hearts.  He said they put more wood on the side that faces the sun, and they will all lean that way.  The area we are cutting gets a strong sun rise. 

>Sapsuckers can be a problem.  I've read, the best control is to leave the trees with the damage, not take them.

There seems to be too many of them.  Logger says woodpeckers are the worst he's seen, but that's likely because it's the most cherry he's every seen. 

I know there can be a lot of problems in this business.  (like in every business!).  And no one get paid unless I cut a tree, except for maybe a promissory note that may or not come true.  Including me.  I could've burned my woods down a few weeks ago, doing something very stupid with fireplace ash(with a heavy wind going), not being careful after a winter of snow cover where i could throw them anywhere. 

Most of these centers look dead on.   This is our better pile to go out tomorrow, we are hopefully awaiting the better buyer.

chester_tree _farmah

254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

thecfarm

Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

GlennCz

When we logged in 05 we averaged 62 ft/log through the whole job.  this time, with 13K feet down and out, we have averaged 98 ft/log. 

Here's the seconds. 

Ron Scott

~Ron

Clark

One really good reason to hiring a consulting forester, especially in higher value stands, is that they will know how long those big cherry trees have to hang on. It's an expensive lesson to learn on your own piece of property and I realize you are doing it your way. Honestly it sounds like you and the logger have a good system worked out but by going that route you missed out on this piece of the puzzle that a forester would have.

Your picture of the woodpecker damage looks exactly like maple borer damage that we get around here. Granted, I typically only see that damage on the bottom log. Here's more information about the borer:

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/howtos/ht_mapleborer/mapleborer.htm

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

GlennCz

Thanks Clark.  Yes, the maple borer link you gave me looks exactly what i took a picture of above.  Luckily, that does not seem to be a big problem in many trees here, and I've only seen it high up on a maple, but now that I know what it is, I'll try to take better notice of it. 

This business is an art based on a science.  I agree the large majority of people are probably better off with a forester on a property like mine.  I am not sure that absolutely holds true in my particular case.  First of all, as I tell my 1st wife all the time - "I'm having more fun than a boy can have"!!!!!  With a forester I would just be an bystander, sure I'd get some lessons, but.  The loggers would likely be nameless people.  I'd never meet "the guy with the stick".  I'd never study a timber load purchase report.  I probably wouldn't have near the miles walked in my woods pondering this whole thing and observing my logger.  Almost all of that has been plain good fun.  But I do realize, in many cases there is a lot that can go very, very bad!!

As to lessons learned.  I did learn that what my logger things is woodpecker damage is very likely the maple borer. 
But since when a tree is down it's down, and in the pile.  It's hard to say what I learned.  I learned some trees that are big healthy have big holes, shake (in cherry), gum - where they will never be veneer, red rot, etc, and other ones that are medium and healthy make veneer grade NOW, which means they would have to grow almost twice as big to be worth the same value, that is, if something else didn't go wrong in the meantime to ruin their value.  it's complicated and a crap shoot.  The game is to make it an educated carp shoot, like playing a hand of black jack. (which thankfully I don't do!)

A few more thoughts.  One advantage a logger has over a forester is that he has cut thousands or trees down and is able to connect the butt and the tree.  I know that a forester has watched many trees cut down, and likely cut many himself.  But the thing is to connect the butt log with the bark/canopy.  When they are thrown in the pile it's just a log.  I don't think anyone knows for sure what is going to be inside a log when it's cut down.  There are a lot of very little things that can ruin the grade of a log that can only be seen when it's cut down.  In most cases it seems those defects only keep it from not being veneer.  A big straight log will likely be graded Prime X (or plus) vs Prime even with some bad stuff inside. 

I had a real nice guy grading my logs yesterday, right at my landing.   The landing is only about 300 yds from this chair!  Another big factor.  It's plain good fun to play forester, but for sure very few landowners would be involved like I am.

On my 2005 first cut I have no regrets.  We took a lot of junk out that needed to go to free up the better stuff.  The logs averaged 62ft compared to the 99 ft/log we are so far this time.  The stakes are higher this time for bad decisions.

But like I said, it is very likely more of an art than a science.  As in the field I work in on my day job, sometimes we just don't know what the right thing is.  I have the greatest respect for the true professionals in this field.  It's a field where you need a lot of experience to play the chances in the right way. 

SwampDonkey

Sounds like some is sapsucker (ring the trunk), they do this to eat bugs that feed on the sap. Some is worms and a woodpecker after the worms. Some stuff on the but looks like old logging damage to with all those folds and flutes.  I was also wondering if some of that off centre stuff is large limbs or leaners and not really more sun on one side.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

brianJ

@Swamp Donkey  Your words.      I was also wondering if some of that off centre stuff is large limbs or leaners and not really more sun on one side.

Wouldnt those large limbs and a bit of the leaners be from more sun on one side?

SwampDonkey

The tree could be getting full sun and also have large limbs all around. My experience is the off centering is due to gravity.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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