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laser range finder for tree height - cheap 1?

Started by rebocardo, June 29, 2004, 04:52:20 AM

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rebocardo

I could use a laser range finder for tree height because having it would let me take more urban tree jobs that I pass on.

???
Though the ones I have found are high dollar, are there any cheaper then the one ($589) that follows
???

I can usually guesstimate pretty well, but, once a tree is over 80 feet it gets hard. The reason the height is so important for me is not about where I want it to fall so much, it is about where it might fall if things go totally wrong, like flipping over sideways and hitting a neighbor's house or power wires.

If I know a tree is 120 feet tall and the neighbor is 100 feet away and I have no attachment for a deadman line to prevent it falling that way, I just might skip even doing it. Though if I know the tree is 95 feet and the closest house is 160 feet, then I would be good to go.

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Here is one I found on opticsplanet.com:

OpticsPlanet  introduces the LH Series of hypsometers by Opti-Logic includes models that measure over 600 (800 for 800LH) yards on non-reflective targets and up to 1000 yards on highly reflective targets. Each hypsometer model is capable of measuring the height of a structure to +/- 1 foot (+5% of reading) in about ten seconds.

The LH hypsometers have four operational modes and can measure line-of-sight distance, horizontal distance, height and angle. Distance measurements are +/- one yard and angle measurement resolution is +/- 0.2 degrees. Each LH rangefinder model is user programmable for distance and height measurements in feet, yards or meters. In addition, angle measurements can be displayed in degrees or percent grade.

With four distinct measuring modes and simple one-button operation, the LH Series has far-ranging applications in construction, forestry and many other industries. Whether used by a forester to measure the height of a tree or by a crane operator to measure the height of a structure, the LH rangefinder provides an ergonomically friendly design that makes transport and usage convenient in almost any working conditions.

Features

Line-of-Sight (range) 400 Yards
Range w/Reflector 1000 Yards
Single Button Operation
Distance Measures in Feet, Yards or Meters
Angle Measures in degrees or percent grade
Accuracy  +/-3 Feet
4 Yards Minimum Range
Angle Resolution +/-0.2 degrees
Audible "Chirp" mode
automatic Rain Mode
9 Volt Battery
Available in Yellow, Black or Camouflage color
1 7/8 x 4 ? x 5 inches, 11oz


Mark M

Hi Rebo

Why don't you get yourself a 100 ft rope and a protractor and just calculate the height?

Use the rope to measure out 100 feet from the tree then hold the base of the protractor level. A 100 foot tall tree will measure 45 degrees. Better yet use a marker and put a percent grade scale on the protractor and just read the height directly.

You may need to consider the hight of th protractor from the ground to get the exact height. At 5ft a 105 ft tree will measure 45. Usually just knowing the height within 5 feet is good enough.

beenthere

Mark has the idea I was thinking too, as I too slow to see the reason for needing the accuracy of the expensive laser hypsometer (unless that is what you want and that I can understand  :) ). I was thinking inclinometer (found a ton of different uses for those when doing a search) and ran across this 'cheap' one.

http://www.exploratorium.edu/math_explorer/howHigh_useInclino.html

And the clinometer
http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/astro/abney.htm
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Norwiscutter

Go to cabella's web site and take a look at their LRF's, they should be cheaper than 550.00. You don't need an 800 yard range finder unless you plan on felling trees that are about 500 feet high, so if you plan on using it just for trees, get a smaller one. But if you do any long distance shooting, a good LRF beats out the DanG MIL dot system... until the batterys go dead( which they always do)

That protractor and level will probably be just as fast and will work the same every time... for about 545 less dollars.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Tillaway

We have just got through looking at the Opti-Logic, it would probably work for you.  We chose not to buy it since the peformance was not up to speed, but I didn't try it myself.  the new guys did and they had problems with it.

The cheapest, fastest and most accurate way to measure is with a long tape measure and clinometer.  Any hundred foot tape will do and a clino is about $80 bucks.  Its much more accurate and and a whole lot cheaper.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

Ron Scott

I'd go with the clinometer and a logger's tape. As Tillaway said, a lot cheaper and accurate.
~Ron

Bruce_A

All of the above seems real good to me.  I personally use a stick the length of my arm, holding my arm horizontal and the stick at 90 degrees to my arm, sighting along to the top of the tree, then stepping off the distance to the tree and adding 10 feet for safety, thus figuring the height of the tree.  Again, works for me.  Good luck.

ADfields

I use a $5 angle finder from Harbor Freight and a short level to put myself 45 degrees from the tree top then pace off how far from the trunk I am.   For felling, if I stand at the house I don't want to hit and the tree top is over 45 degrees I know right off it wont reach the house.   Got to count for the slope, your eye hight and what not but like Bruce it works for me.

Now I thunk I was right smart to come up with this all on my own. ::)   After all I got most of my sleeping done in high school math class. ;)   So how many of you other guys failed geometry class and still came up with this system. ??? ??? :) :)
Andy

Kevin

I have one of these ...Cross Sight
and it works very well.
On uneven terrain you need to compensate some but the instructions explain it.

rebocardo

Thank you for all the information everyone! That Cross Sight tool looks like the ticket. Best of all the place is only 40 miles from me in GA and it looks like they offer forest training too  8)

I have been using a 300 foot tape measure to draw a circle around the tree and distant to potential obstacles, I just need something a bit more accurate and easier to use so I can take more jobs or rest easier on the ones I do take. Especially when laying the crown of a tree between two objects or in a back yard where a fence is involved.

I love this board  :)

SwampDonkey

Rebo: Why not the clinometer as Tillaway suggests. Its not hard to figure the math. Get one with a % percent scale. And use your tape.

{top reading - bottom reading} X horizontal distance

= {0.98 - (-0.10)} X 60 feet
= 1.08 X 60 feet
= 64.8 or 65 feet

make sure that you stand back far enough so that the top shot is under 100 % for increased accuracy. ;)

If you take the bottom reading AT the height the tape was held, add the height from the ground up to the position of the tape measure. Example: you held the tape 5 feet above the ground, add 5 feet to the tree height. ;)

On steep slopes you'll correct slope distance to horizontal distance.

horizontal distance = slope distance X cosine (|slope reading from your clinometer|)  

Hold the tape at eye level or the level your reading the clinometer at, when correcting slope. ;)

I know the math might a pain, but in your urban setting your not likely to be on steep slopes. To circumvent this correction you can use the contour of the hill in your favor and stand across slope instead of walking up hill from the tree. :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

rebocardo

Has anyone used the clinometer from Brunton, sold by Bailey's? I did not know they sold them.

The price, $90,. I can live with and it seems likely to be more accurate in my hands.

What I like is the 66 foot deal, that is about the height of trees I like to take down and usually about the room you have in an urban setting to look at a tree.

From the ad: ----------------------------------------------------------

Brunton® Clino Masters are designed to measure angles, slopes and elevations, including the height of trees to 200ft. Sighting and scale readings are accomplished simultaneously.

All Clino Masters have a percent scale on the one side of the sight used to measure any elevation to an accuracy of ± 1° or ± 1%. Use the degree model for a 0-180 degree angle reading. Use the 66' model for measuring the height of an object from 66' away (standard chain distance).

Survey Master has dual instrument capability because it has a sighting compass with reciprocal bearing and clinometer. "

----------------------------------------------------------

Is this the best one to get under $100? Thanks.





Tillaway

Check out Forestry Suppliers or Ben Meadows, they are usually the cheapest.  You have a choice between % and topo or % and degrees with clinos.  The % and topo scale ones allow you to take heights at 66' off the topo scale.  Its the same as the brunton one that Bailey's has.  Suunto is usually the brand everyone uses.  Have not seen a Brunton before.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

SwampDonkey

The reason I use a % scale clino is its just quicker to figure the math in your head. No real advantage over the chain scale. SUUNTO is a reliable brand, but SILVA used to have a different model which housed the eye piece inside a popup case, which kept the water and crud out of the unit. It also kept the eye piece from fogging up in wet environments like in the Pacific northwest. But, they were discontinued I believe. I found the SUUNTO clino often times sticks because of moister and dirt getting inside. But, as I recall they do warrentee against this failure. I work in a dryer climate now and don't have the sticking or fogging up problem. Wasn't Brunto the company that aquired Silva? I see their compasses and they are identical to SIlva Ranger.

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tillaway

Heck... I use a relaskop almost exclusively.  I carry a clino but don't often use it.  I second the percent scale, its what I use the most.  I use the topo scale only if I happen be standing at 66'.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

SwampDonkey

Yup, used those relescopes also on the west coast. But, their correction isn't good over 60 %. We were required to correct steeper slopes with a SUUNTO and tape if the tree was borderline. But, for the most part it was because of moss buildup on the tree trunk that had to be scraped before measured. ;D

Using the metric scope we used BAF=12.25 mostly, sometimes 16 in sitka spruce or red cedar stands. :D Had 25 m plot spacing once in juvenile wood that had a few scattered veteran red cedar. There were 4 plots with this monster red cedar in each plot. That was with 8 BAF :D We'de have to measure them Dang things with 2 dbh tapes and those tapes were 7.5 meters long. I can't imagine measuring those Soquia trees in northern Cal., I hope there's hills cause even if ya could see the bottom, you wont see the top on flat ground with under 100 % slope (top reading). We never could with old growth sitka or veteran red cedar anyway. I don't miss those days much. ;)

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tillaway

Yep, have to pull LD's all the time.  We never swung variable plots in the old growth.  To much chance the tree over the ridge would be in. ;D  Particularly in redwood.

I gave up trying to keep my shots under 100.  A bit too time consuming if you are paid on production.  Never had a problem with QC checks either.

I noticed that the "keep it under a 100: is a BC MOF deal.  You had to put your top and bottom shots on the cruise card if I remember correctly.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

SwampDonkey

Tillaway:

The MOF never did quantify the accuracy under 100 % in the cruising manual. They only suggested that in 'general' it increases accuracy of the height measurement. I've searched the web and never seen any reference to it on survey pages. I here ya on the production pay rates, but we never worried if we did at least 6 plots per day. Hmmm big wood = lotsa money to get it right the first time. ;D My blocks all passed also, but I hate doing blocks for others that didn't hold up. Alot of times it was just things over looked. But, dbh measurements was a big thing too. I always had to keep an eye on where the compassman was wraping the tape. Sometimes I was tempted to mark a line on the guy. Or a great big X for 'out of my crew'. :D :D

Did Terry Hamond do your checks? He did most all of mine, since he was most experienced at the QC office.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tillaway

Compassman?  What have you heard of this mythical person?  I always thought it was a legend. ;D  

Lets see, generally I expect about 20 to 24 plot per day for cruising.  10 or 12 for inventory.  Basically 3/4 of a mile of line a day average is what this works out to.  No compassman, usually armed to the teeth with data recorder, relaskop, impulse laser, 2 tapes and a GPS.

One of my old employers expected 32 plots per day average.

Oh ya, we do count plots, usually 1/2 the plots installed in everything but inventory.

That name is vaguely familiar, I did mostly cut block layout and roads.  Only cruised about a week or so up there.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

SwampDonkey

Tillaway:

We never had too many 10 or 12 plot days in inventory cruising on the west coast unless it was small wood. The interior doesn't do tree quality. Especially difficult to do more than that with all the pathology and quality to be done, scraping loose bark and moss, marking trees, centre stakes and reference trees. All takes time. Even count plots with estimation of diameter would be limited to 12 or 14 plots per day. Different circumstances I suppose with different jurisdictions. Here on the east coast, 30 inventory plots per day isn't bad. You can do even better in hardwood stands without alot of under growth. I have alot of professional contractors that estimate volume and they come pretty close to the cruises. But not volume by species, just total volume.

Do you use Trimble's WinCE GPS's. Instead of packing around a datalogger why not use the WinCE device and Visual CE and synchronize with your main database.?

http://www.syware.com/prodlib/win_ce/vce/vce.htm

Some screen shots of my Cruise Tally Form on my WinCE GPS. There is a report generator as an addon, Visual Report.







And it synchronizes with my main database here
http://www.klondikekonsulting.com/Website/kruse.htm

With VisualCE you just import your tables from the main database on your PC and built your forms.

Just thought I'de mention it because it may be something you've not considered. ;)

cheers

Those compassmen are as mythical as the Dungarvon Hooper. Its another myth here in NB. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tillaway

I have done several different cruises, with permanent inventory plots getting two points to 5 points of a five point cluster plot done in a day is good.  They require stakes, tree # tags, dbh nails, references and such.  

The point sample inventory is a beefed up cruise where growth and site productivety are measured as well as down woody debris, vegetation, regeneration, total tree hieghts, and dbh to the .10" inch.  No plot references are used since they are temporary.  You can get around 10 or 12 of these a day.  the sampling intensity is lower so its a long ways between plots.

Thata an interesting user interface on the ce device.  I haven't used one like it.  I do not have any trimble GPS units and can not justify the expense.  My current empolyer , state, uses garmin with the DNR Garmin extension for Arcview.  I will be getting a Thales MobilMapper as a demo here pretty quick.  I have to justify the price since it is 5 times more expensive than a Garmin but it is also about 4 times less expensive than a Trimble.

There is one cruise program on the US west coast that is the most popular.  That is Atterbury Super ACE, it runs on a ROS or DOS based handheld.  There are better programs, just that this one was first to market with usable documentation so everyone has it, it works, and no one can or will justify changing it since change costs money.  In fact Super ACE will not run on Windows XP.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

SwampDonkey

Tillaway:

I had it in the back of my mind that you were getting the Thales Mobile Mapper from another thread. But, I thought maybe you had a TrimbleCE device also, wasn't sure. I know Trimble is extremely over priced, even when they discontinued their old GEO models they wouldn't drop the price on them much. That Thales unit should be nice, I'de be interested in reading your comments on it when you get time, maybe this winter. ;) I can see switching from your datalogger to a WinCE device would not be neccessary just for the sake of integrating your inventory collection with GPS in one handheld. No need of fixing what isn't broken. ;D It would be nice though if the Mobile Mapper was non-proprietory, and compatible with WinCE. I think you will be quite happy with the Mobile Mapper, none-the-less.

Certainly, the math involved in calculating your cruise would be the same, I would hope , as making your own MS Access database and using a customized VisualCE data entry Form. I can certainly see that having the majority of folks using the program you folks have avoids some compatibility issues. The thing about VisualCE is its compatible with MSAccess and you can customize your own forms as you wish. Those forms are just a front end to the database as you know. I was only posting the screen shots to show you an example. I hope it didn't seem like I was offering to customize and build a database for you. ;)

I use a Panasonic GPS, but not the SOKKIA CF module. I've had reasonable success with it for cruising (point location), but our forests are not real tall here and more hardwood and poplar which leaves the sky open in the dormant season. Cedar and softwood stands are a challenge with 90 % C/C. But, I always tote along the string box.  Early spring time in my region is poor GPS satellite coverage, even the $20,000 GPS surveyors complain about it. ;)

The SOKKIA module in the Panasonic CE device would set you back about the same as the Trimble unit. I got my Panasonic imbedded GPS on the CF-P1 for $1700 CND, plus the purchase of ESRI's ARCPAD 6.x.

I've tested the Garmin MAP 76 with the Trimble GEO's and found it was just as accurate. Those GEO spikes are definately multipath, so their post processing definately doesn't filter it much. ;) :D Just a week ago I know two GEO's that were almost 2 ha in area difference and the maps were identicle.The blocks were measured a couple weeks apart I think. :D hmm. A real head scratcher. ;) I discovered that once on a couple my blocks to, and I even did a traverse, and my GPS and the traverse where within 0.03 ha of each. Toss that GEO :D

Most professionals have concluded that its best not to believe all the claims made by the manufacturer of any particular GPS. It all comes the light when we test'em in the field. ;)

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

rebocardo

Well, I bought the cross sight tool since it is so inexpensive and it is something I can leave in my truck without worrying about it getting heisted or damaged. Though I probably will get a better clinometer too. I do have a question about this tool from those have used it.

When sighting on the tool, do you use the tops of the blue open triangles, like the one above Tim Curds signature, or the tip of the points on the plastic cross?  

Do you change the angle of the tool to get the tree within the marks or are you suppose to keep the tool level at all times.

I have been doing some testing on shorter objects and the height/distance does not match up, so I figure it is probably user error.

SwampDonkey

Tillaway:

I see Thales is about to release a Windows CE verision of the Mobile Mapper with DGPS through WAAS, post processing, and a beacon with blue tooth connectivity to the GPS receiver. Trying to find additional info about the software which comes with the unit from a dealer. SO far I only got a quote on the base unit. The post-processing option would be available in summer '05 they say at the dealership. Uses RINEX or Ashtech data from any reference station. I'm not sure if this is the same for Trimble or not, checking that too. WAAS isn't accepted by forestry companies here as it's unreliable for DGPS.

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tillaway

We bought the MobileMapper, souped up color Magellan Meridian, and so far it is working very well.  It has the post processing option and WAAS as well.  I correct of the USGS CORS website using a nearby Coast Guard beacon.  The files are Rinex.  The beacon Bluetooth combo would be sweet but not avalable for our unit but, so far, sub-meter realtime is not needed for our use.  The only complaint I have is that the .shape files I import can be larger than the unit will swallow.  It has a memory card but we don't have a card reader yet that will accomdate it.  So far this small issue is the only complaint outside of how long it takes to load a job file.  The larger ones take 5 minutes or so to load.

The office software works well and the CE version should be the same as I am using.  The issue must be with the GPS unit collecting and storing the C/A code or phase data.

You can correct Trimble data with RINEX as far as I know.  I think I saw that option in the software where it might ask for file type when looking for base files.  The Trimble software seems to look for Trimble base stations as a default.  The Thales software does not automatically search the web for base data.  You have to track it down and match files the old fashion way.

Right now we have one GPS unit and five management units wanting to use it.  It stays real busy and all the data comes through my desk.

One other thing, the unit we have does not have any position filters (PDOP mask, SNR, velocity, number of SV's) so I preach about watching PDOP and getting 4 satellites.  So far they seem to forget and bring back 2D data pretty regularly.  That data will not post-process let alone even resemble what is on the ground.  Also ask your sales rep about when they are going to fix the distance units in the units software.  There is not an option for feet only or meters only and will state distances as miles if the distance is more than 528'.  Its really annoying.  It will go to kilometers from meters at some point to but fortunately for you the math is much easier.  ;)
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

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