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Where does hickory grow?

Started by NBaxeman, April 28, 2014, 02:57:05 PM

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NBaxeman

Gents;
I'm looking to buy some hickory logs on occasion for axe handles.   My first purchase goes down this week in Connecticut.    How far north does hickory grow?   Mass?  VT? NH? ME?

No guesses please.

chester_tree _farmah

It is fairly common in Southern Coastal NH. I have not seen much of it to speak of North of there. There is zippo where I live in North central Maine. Except for my kitchen cabinets.  ;D
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
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beenthere

NBaxeman
Which species of hickory are you interested in for axe handles?

What grade of log are you looking to buy?

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

chester_tree _farmah

Good questions. Shag bark are all I have seen in NH.
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

GAB

On my property approx. 10 miles S of Burlington VT in the Champlain Valley I have a few Shagbarks and some smooth bark also called Bitternut hickory.
To date I have not harvested a Shagbark hickory that was not hollow.
Gerald
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

mesquite buckeye

I have plenty in Missouri. Bet lots of others here to. We also had lots of them in OH. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

beenthere

Quote from: mesquite buckeye on April 28, 2014, 08:25:36 PM
I have plenty in Missouri. Bet lots of others here to. We also had lots of them in OH. ;D

Meaning shagbark hickory?  or?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

WDH

Here hickory is like Savoir Faire, it is everywhere  :D.

(Anybody else remember Savoir Faire?)
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

KBforester

Champlain Valley is the farthest north I've seen it, as GAB said.
Trees are good.

WmFritz

Quote from: WDH on April 28, 2014, 09:36:02 PM
Here hickory is like Savoir Faire, it is everywhere  :D.

(Anybody else remember Savoir Faire?)

I lived for Saturday morning toons.  :D

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VMt3GOyRkU4
~Bill

2012 Homebuilt Bandmill
1959 Detroit built Ferguson TO35

NBaxeman

Thanks guys - Looks like Vermont is my closest source.   
Most axe handles are made with what people call "American Hickory"...so I'm not to sure what species of Carya it actually is.   I think I'm getting a few logs of each (shagbark, bitter & ??) and I'll process them and try each - hopefully I'll be able to see what is best. 
I typically use white ash - it is more pliable and shock-absorbing, but the hickory I have tried seems to be stronger wood - not sure yet.

I split my bolts "pie shaped" ...then take the inside triangle off - leaving the outside sapwood in the shape of a rectangle.  The bolt then is easy to use on a bandsaw, and the grain is running the length of the eye - which I have found makes for a much stronger handle, and less chance of shearing along grain lines.  I usually use ash that is at last 12 inches DBH, and the log needs to be straight and no defects.  I'm essentially buying veneer quality...but if it's not perfect, no beg deal, I'll just pay less and use the defects for firewood.......but mind you it can be pretty expensive firewood if not much of the bolt results in good axe handle wood.

Magicman

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, NBaxeman.  Have you ever considered Elm?
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Dodgy Loner

I'm not sure why one would consider elm if they have access to hickory ???

I understand that some eastern Europeans use it, but the benefit of hickory (besides its tremendous strength) is the ability to rive the wood to get perfectly straight grain, as NB axeman describes. You won't be doing that with elm. I use hickory exclusively for axe and hammer handles. I don't think there is a better wood in the world for the purpose.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Magicman

Quote from: Dodgy Loner on April 29, 2014, 03:02:16 PM
I'm not sure why one would consider elm if they have access to hickory ??? 
Just because John Neeman does, but he probably does not have access to Hickory.   ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Claybraker

The Swedes (Gransfors/Wetterlings, Hultafors) all use Hickory. Maybe John could get some from them?

I have to laugh at the irony though. I recently paid good money for a Gransfors Bruk Small Forest Axe, made in Sweden with a premium American Hickory handle, so I can do TSI hack-n-squirt. One of the target species is hickory of course. :-\


chester_tree _farmah

Well if it is elm u don't have to worry about flying objects if the handle breaks. The head will just flop around by the twisted strainds. I like hickory handles best. I have never seen it in a floor but want to. My cabinets are used hard and they are still solid and look good.
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

NBaxeman

Hey dodgy loner - how do you process your wood?   Do you quarter split/saw the wood and use just the sapwood as I describe, or can you saw hickory differently?   Will it split as easily as ash?  Ash I can process with a maul and metal wedge - wondering if I can do the same thing with hickory, or will I have to use my woodmizer to saw off my pie-shaped pieces?

SPIKER

Here we have lots of Hickory both shag bark, king hickory & pig nut (smooth bark.)   

As far as handles go heck if ya are going into production then you have access to about any good wood could work in a pinch.   I have some pin oak handles for a driving hammer that broke on the first swing...   I have some slippery elm that is not real stringy (in same as red elm fam which is real stringy) and white elm is softer & bouncy so maybe not great but useable...

mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

NBaxeman

I've been in production for over 25 years now.   Most of the handles I make are made to fit racing axes - the 5 pound, razor sharp axes you see on TSN and the STIHL Timbersports series on TV.  I have sold Tuatahi axes for years and make nothing but the best of handles for these axes.....so unfortunately, "any good wood" is quite limited IMHO.   Ring porous
wood is a must for tools that absorb vibration, the denser Hop hornbeam I use for peavey handles. 

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: NBaxeman on April 29, 2014, 08:26:38 PM
Hey dodgy loner - how do you process your wood?   Do you quarter split/saw the wood and use just the sapwood as I describe, or can you saw hickory differently?   Will it split as easily as ash?  Ash I can process with a maul and metal wedge - wondering if I can do the same thing with hickory, or will I have to use my woodmizer to saw off my pie-shaped pieces?

NBaxeman - I always split my hickory for axe handles. I think you will find that the hickory will split quite nicely. You mentioned that you are essentially looking for veneer quality logs. Hickory of that quality will almost always split well. I have noticed that, in the South, at least, there is a correlation between growth rate and how easily the wood splits- ie, slower-grown wood will split more nicely than faster-grown wood. I usually prefer about 1/8" spacing between the rings. Faster grown wood is stronger, but it also is more likely to have somewhat interlocking grain that is much more difficult to split. For me the tradeoff is not worth it. Of course, if you have hickory that is really slow-grown (basically the earlywood rings are so close to each other that there is hardly any room for the latewood), then you will find that the wood is brittle (or "brash"). We don't have much hickory down here that grows so slowly, but it may be something to watch out for up North.

You obviously know what you are doing (Welcome to the Forum, by the way! Great to have someone with your experience around!), but if you are interested in seeing how I make axe handles, feel free to check out this thread I posted a few years ago. Also, I posted about harvesting hickory bark and splitting the wood into billets on Reply #58 on this thread. That log was an absolute bear to split. Usually I wouldn't fool with riving a log like that, but since I already had it around for the hickory bark, I hated to waste it.

Again, welcome :)
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

coxy

I am on a job that has lots of it and you cant cut it splits as soon as you cut the tree to log size then I have lots of pre split fire wood  ;D

mesquite buckeye

Quote from: beenthere on April 28, 2014, 09:31:20 PM
Quote from: mesquite buckeye on April 28, 2014, 08:25:36 PM
I have plenty in Missouri. Bet lots of others here to. We also had lots of them in OH. ;D

Meaning shagbark hickory?  or?

On my place shagbark and bitternut hickory. Nearby lots of pecan. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Chuck White

Hickory is common in this area!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Black_Bear

Quote from: NBaxeman on April 28, 2014, 02:57:05 PM
Gents;
I'm looking to buy some hickory logs on occasion for axe handles.   My first purchase goes down this week in Connecticut.    How far north does hickory grow?   Mass?  VT? NH? ME?

No guesses please.

The silvics manual has decent maps that depict range for common tree species, including quite a few hickories.

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/silvics_manual/volume_2/vol2_Table_of_contents.htm

coxy

wow better go back to school and learn my trees did not know there was that many oak trees  ;D

tj240

i do alot of work in the albany new york area and we come across quite a bit of hickory if its not a veneer log we sell it for firewood some of it is real good size. where are you located? message me maybe we can work out something
work with my father[jwilly] and my son. we have a 240 tj 160 barko[old] works great three generations working together

bill m

I live in western Ma. and we have a lot of Hickory here. Shagbark and Bitternut. We don't have much of a market for it here so it gets left for wildlife food.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

Al_Smith

FWIW I have all three varieties in my woods .Shag bark,shell bark and bitter nut (smooth bark).Fact the floor my desk chair is on while I type this post is hickory veneer  .Something is causing the shag bark to die .Odd 90 -100 foot healthy looking trees too .

NBaxeman

Great answers guys.  The maps are great and show shagbark up into southern Maine, Pignut into Mass.  I landed 10 - 16 inch logs here in New Brunswick 12 foot long just yesterday.   Peeling the hickory was a rough job.  It must peel better in a week or two once the cambium starts working - anyone know the answer to this?   

Hey - great pics of you making axe handles.   I'm curious though, do you use both sapwood and heartwood>  Also I see you actually draw your pattern at 90 degrees to what an old fellow here told me.   I draw my pattern on the smooth side that splits off directly opposite the bark (so when I saw it on the bandsaw, bark side is face down).  I was told if the grain runs the length of the eye it is stronger than across the eye where a split may follow the grain.   

I've split out 13 - 3 foot bolts so far and you are spot on with splitting.    Any bolts with knots, burls or other imperfections split lousy.....but man, the veneer quality logs split like a dream - true and straight.    I'm very impressed so far- hickory is stringy, heavy, seems very strong, and not quite as flexible as ash.....but should make for some great handles.   I'm air-drying it in my carport at present, and I'm hoping it will be usable as early as this fall.

I also use mostly a spoke shave to shape my handles, then finish with a rasp, sometimes broken glass or sandpaper.   Most of these racing axe handles are 30" long, but if someone brings me the original, I'll make anything from an offset hewing axe to a removable pick axe handle and peavey handles.   I'm really looking forward to working with these blanks this fall.   Thanks for all the great info here guys. 

Hey New York - thanks a lot for the offer, but I'm trying to find a place as close to Maine or in Maine as I can.   It was an 18 hour trip last week to get these 10 logs, but as \I said, the way it's splitting, I'm very happy and should be able to get quite a stockpile of handle blanks.   Hopefully you'll be seeing them on TSN and the STIHL series before long!~


Al_Smith

The only "real " logging I ever did was a 5 acre patch of large hickory about 1980 .

It was during a time period that farm land prices escalated and thousands of acres of 5-10 -20 acre patchs of woods fell to the mighty D8 Caterpilars .

The logs were on 50 percent with the land owner but they didn't pay much .Probabley a little more than firewood with less work in involved .We cut the tops for firewood and I think the logs went to Louisville KY .

Nice logs about 24" and you might get 35 feet of clear log per tree .

mesquite buckeye

Good tree country, but taxes and land cost so high it is hard to justify unless it is rock. Then it isn't good tree country. :-\
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: NBaxeman on May 06, 2014, 09:22:59 PM
Peeling the hickory was a rough job.  It must peel better in a week or two once the cambium starts working - anyone know the answer to this?   

Peeling the bark is difficult during winter. Once the leaves start pushing out and the sap starts flowing, it's stupid easy. The bark will peel off in a solid sheet. Obviously, I prefer to harvest my hickory in the spring!

Quote from: NBaxeman on May 06, 2014, 09:22:59 PM
Hey - great pics of you making axe handles.   I'm curious though, do you use both sapwood and heartwood>  Also I see you actually draw your pattern at 90 degrees to what an old fellow here told me.   I draw my pattern on the smooth side that splits off directly opposite the bark (so when I saw it on the bandsaw, bark side is face down).  I was told if the grain runs the length of the eye it is stronger than across the eye where a split may follow the grain.   

It's different for different woods. USFS testing has showed that ash is stronger when oriented as you describe, but hard maple is actually stronger when oriented the other way. I'm not aware of any research on hickory, but it's so strong that I don't believe it matters. I orient it the way I do for two reasons: 1) if there is any tension in the wood than causes the handle to bend over time, the bend will be parallel to the blade, where it won't matter as much, and 2) the way I split out my billets, the radial dimension is usually the widest. With hickory, though, do whatever makes ya happy. It'll last.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

beenthere

Quotetesting has showed that ash is stronger when oriented as you describe,
DL
Have you a source for this info?  My understanding is there is no significant difference found between bending strength parallel to grain vs. perpendicular to grain. 
However the baseball bat industry has for good many years acted like there is a difference with ash (strike the ball with the brand up), as well as the tool handle industry such as shovel handles.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Black_Bear

Quote from: beenthere on May 07, 2014, 07:17:27 PM
Quotetesting has showed that ash is stronger when oriented as you describe,
DL
Have you a source for this info?  My understanding is there is no significant difference found between bending strength parallel to grain vs. perpendicular to grain. 
However the baseball bat industry has for good many years acted like there is a difference with ash (strike the ball with the brand up), as well as the tool handle industry such as shovel handles.

This paper may have the answer you are looking for:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_05.pdf

Al_Smith

It makes a lot of difference in selecting a good axe or sledge hammer handle .

It seems here of late I go through a lot of them that don't suit me if I were to purchase one .Old school ,I go with the Louisville slugger theory .

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: Al_Smith on May 07, 2014, 07:34:29 PM
It makes a lot of difference in selecting a good axe or sledge hammer handle .

It seems here of late I go through a lot of them that don't suit me if I were to purchase one .Old school ,I go with the Louisville slugger theory .

I really think that it only matters with ash. I don't think choosing hickory with the rings oriented parallel to the swing is particularly old school. I got the suggestion to orient the rings perpendicularly to the swing from an early-1800s reference. But darned if I could remember where. The reasoning was to prevent a bent handle in the case of stress that manifests itself over time. Works for me. But either way is fine.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: beenthere on May 07, 2014, 07:17:27 PM
Quotetesting has showed that ash is stronger when oriented as you describe,
DL
Have you a source for this info?  My understanding is there is no significant difference found between bending strength parallel to grain vs. perpendicular to grain.

Good reading: http://www.woodbat.org
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Al_Smith

Now as far as a ball bat I've seen many a good old Louisville slugger break from hiting it cross grain .

I've also seen cheap shovels break like tooth picks and a good old Ames bend like a noodle and not break .

Couple years ago I made a handle for a cant hook from a sharkbark hickory sapling .Took me a couple hours with a draw knife .I'll gaurentee it will last longer than I will .My grandson probabley will able to use it and he's only 4 .--ornery got that from his grandmother  ;)

Dodgy Loner

I made an axe handle with the rings oriented "baseball bat-style" about 3 years ago.



The stock had been air-dried for 5 years, and the handle was perfectly straight when I made it. After a few months, it looked like this:





No doubt the handle would have still bent had I oriented the grain the other way, but the bend would have been in line with the direction of swing and pretty harmless. As it is, this axe is useless. I need to make another handle for it, but I have more axes than time ;D

Come to think of it, I wish I had used that blank to make a handle for a broadaxe :D

"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

WDH

Dodgy,

It is not good to have too many axes to grind.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

NBaxeman

DL - I don't think the bend in your handle has anything to do with grain orientation, but everything to do with it being leaned against a wall during the time it wasn't used.   I have found this in many axe handles that have not been hung on a nail or laid flat - the weight and lean cause the wood to sag when a handle is leaned against a wall.   Many a lumberjack have experienced this and then tried to "blame it" on hanging or worse - the wood itself when really it's all about long-term storage.

Our hanging techniques vary a little bit, but I'm hanging a 5 pound razor sharp axe whereas you are hanging a bit more rustic pieces.  I'm sure there are as many perspectives on this as there are tree species!   I started hanging axe handles similar to your technique, but got my hands on a DVD from my axe manufacturer in New Zealand that had a bit more advice.   Now, I spoke shave the handle so the head fits easily 3/4 of the way onto the handle, and gently tap the head into place the last 1/4.   If is doesn't go easily, you need to rasp/spoke shave just a bit more off so it fits snugly.    I have found over the past 25 years that if you drive the axe head on the last 1/4 and compress this wood at the base of the head, it becomes a stress point and the handle will break here routinely.   Also, cutting a "shelf" for the axe head to rest upon, or driving the axe head on with "wood curl" at the base - both of these also create a stress point and the handle will typically break at this point at some point.

Again, perhaps the size of the head and the actual use of the axe makes this a bit more critical in our world when you have a crowd of 1000 spectators watching you chop only 50 feet away and if the head comes off you have a 5 pound razor blade flying into people.....so it matters a bit more than if it's a smaller axe used to split kindling or something.  Just some food for thought.

I have really enjoyed the information and advice here men - thanks

beenthere

DL
Was handle in the axe one that you hand split out of a block? Or a sawn blank.

Just wondering if the grain along the length was straight and didn't run out along the length.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

mesquite buckeye

I looked over the technical report. Elastic bending does not equal impact stress.

I have had lots of practical experience with landscape crews breaking wooden handles from various types of abuse. The very first handles to break are the ones with sloped grain across the handle. Shovel handles like that will be broken in the first day or two.

Picks, axes and hoes (usually hickory and ash in that order) both seem to shatter more quickly when the grain/head orientation is anything other than parallel to the grain.

Most of the old, well used tools I have seen have parallel grain. Survival over time is a good witness to durability.

I spend a fair amount of time when I buy a new wooden handled striking tool to make sure the handle is perfectly straight and the grain as close to parallel as I can find. My tool handles last a very long time. ;D

Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Dodgy Loner

The cause of the bend was without question due to latent stress in the wood. It was a riven blank, not sawed (like all of my axe handles). I hang my axes on a nail for storage. There is no way that leaning a handle against a wall could result in the severe bend in my handle, anyway.

If you look at the rings on the first picture, it's easy to see why the problem occurred. The blank was taken from a smaller diameter tree, as indicated by the absence of heartwood and the curvature of the rings. The center rings contain juvenile wood, and the outer rings more mature wood. The differential stresses between the juvenile and mature wood caused the handle to bend over time. While drying, the blank was much thicker, and the greater beam strength of the thick blank was sufficient to hold the blank straight. Thinning the blank for the handle reduced the beam strength, increasing the flexibility of the handle, and allowing the distortion to manifest itself over a period of a few months.

The lesson here was to not make axe handles with juvenile wood. The same defect could occur in a tree with tension wood due to a lean. This can be avoided if you have picked out and felled the tree yourself (as I do), or detected in a log as evidenced by an off-center pith.

Also, I would like to point out that I do not leave the shelf created by driving the head onto the handle. After this step, I remove the handle and fair the area to avoid creating the stress point, as you noted. I have never noted a problem of compression. The only time I have ever broken an axe handle was using a sawn, store-bought handle. They always break along the grain - I have never seen hickory break across the grain. But as you pointed out, I am not helving 5-lb heads for professional axemen, either. I have no doubt that your work demands greater precision than mine. I also have no doubt that the handles I make beat the pants off of anything you can buy from a hardware store ;)
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: mesquite buckeye on May 09, 2014, 11:19:27 AM
Picks, axes and hoes (usually hickory and ash in that order) both seem to shatter more quickly when the grain/head orientation is anything other than parallel to the grain.

Most of the old, well used tools I have seen have parallel grain. Survival over time is a good witness to durability.

I'd love to see you try to shatter one of my axe handles :D
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

beenthere

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

mesquite buckeye

Quote from: Dodgy Loner on May 09, 2014, 11:40:59 AM
Quote from: mesquite buckeye on May 09, 2014, 11:19:27 AM
Picks, axes and hoes (usually hickory and ash in that order) both seem to shatter more quickly when the grain/head orientation is anything other than parallel to the grain.

Most of the old, well used tools I have seen have parallel grain. Survival over time is a good witness to durability.

I'd love to see you try to shatter one of my axe handles :D

I don't like breaking handles.

But I know a guy who can break anything. He has a gift. ;D

I've found perfect handles in hardware stores. Perfectly straight parallel grain, perfect manufacture, perfectly straight. I might have to look through 50 handles to find that one. Guess they just get lucky once in a while.

As the old saying goes, "Even a blind sow will occasionally find and acorn." ;D

Ever make a handle out of figured hickory?
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

NBaxeman

DL - definitely on the same page asyou in regards to younger trees.   I too use the oldest, largest trees. I then split the wood on the outside (sapwood - usually whiter in color on ash and hickory) from the heartwood, and try not to use them together in the same handle.

I have one more question - how many here make handles from hickory heartwood?    Seems strong and durable enough.  If it will work, remain strong and not bend (as in DL's example of more curvature in smaller diameter wood) It would double the number of handles one could split from a block.    I have split these out and have them air drying along with the other......just trying to avoid return handles down the road.

mesquite buckeye

The sapwood has more spring. In the old days (1920's and 30's) my dad said the handle guys wanted second growth hickory, which would have been faster growing and with thick sapwood. I think the trick is to get the entire handle out of sapwood. Big fast growing logs would do that. ;D

If it was all sapwood instead of half sap/half heart, maybe you would get less curvature.

If you were worried about curving, you could cross cut the billets to near the center but outside the finish handle depth to get it to pre move before thinning them out for finish. Might help.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Farmer Jim

Quote from: Dodgy Loner on May 09, 2014, 11:40:08 AM

Also, I would like to point out that I do not leave the shelf created by driving the head onto the handle. After this step, I remove the handle and fair the area to avoid creating the stress point, as you noted. I have never noted a problem of compression. The only time I have ever broken an axe handle was using a sawn, store-bought handle. They always break along the grain - I have never seen hickory break across the grain. But as you pointed out, I am not helving 5-lb heads for professional axemen, either. I have no doubt that your work demands greater precision than mine. I also have no doubt that the handles I make beat the pants off of anything you can buy from a hardware store ;)


I make my own tool handles also.  I believe that the head is not to be driven on. It is my understanding, and the way I helve a tool, that the handle should be started into the eye and then the tool lifted off the ground and using a mallet strike the end of the handle. The tool will climb onto the handle and the tool head is never struck or marred. If the head doesn't climb on then more rasp or shave work is needed.
"I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."  J.B.Books

Dodgy Loner

Yes, Jim, that's how I do it as well. You can see it in the tutorial i linked to earlier in the thread.

NBAxeman- it is my understanding that hickory heartwood is just as strong as the sapwood. All early references recommend using only the sapwood under the assumption that the heartwood was more brittle, bu USFS testing in the early 1900s disproved the assumption. However, this is secondhand knowledge, I'm afraid. I do not know where you would find the original references for this data. I rarely run across hickory with a significant percentage if heartwood, so I have never made a handle using the heartwood. I wouldn't hesitate to do it if I had high-quality heartwood, but then, I'm not selling my handles. Traditions can be hard to break.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

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NBaxeman

I've tried to make a few handles out of the hickory, but I find it pretty frustrating to work with a spoke shave and rasp when it's wet.   Ash actually works much easier when it is freshly cut.    I think I'll need a few months drying the hickory until it's decent to work.   

Dodgy Loner

Yes, hickory is really stringy when green and less so when dry. It usually works nicely with a drawknife when green, but I can imagine that the rasp and spokeshave would be frustrating until it dries out some. If I knew what I were making ahead of time, I would go ahead and rough out my blanks while they were still green. But I never know what I need until I need it, so I just dry the riven blanks and work them down when I need something.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

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mpuste

Has anyone tried making axe or other tool handles from black locust?  Black locust is heavy, hard, and shock resistant like hickory.

Dodgy Loner

No, but I think black locust would be a decent substitute if you are unable to find hickory.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

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Magicman

Black Locust splits very easily.  I would imagine that that (Tom) quality would/could/might have a negative affect somewhere in the handle building or handle use.
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Dodgy Loner

Ash, white oak, hard maple, and the best hickory also split very easily, and they are all good woods for making handles. That is one of the defining traits of woods that make good handles - they allow you to exploit the weakness across the grain (by splitting, rather than sawing) so that you can maintain maximum strength along the grain.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

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Magicman

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It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

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SwampDonkey

NBAxeman, I don't know why you don't source some ironwood (O. virginiana). ;D This is a traditional axe handle wood up here in NB. Use of white ash, as far as my knowledge goes, was a commercialized venture because it grows bigger and very abundant. They make ash handles nearby here at Garant's in Woodstock.  But mom's uncle made handles from ironwood for 70+ years. My uncle (mom's brother) once split lots of firewood by hand and would find out real quick how good a handle was. Red oak was useless, ash was a lot better, and ironwood would never fail as a handle, other than from wear around the base which gets chewed up when splitting a lot of wood. Not even hickory will withstand this wear. It happens, as not all wood splits even, it's often jagged, and this bites into the wood of the handle over time. An axe handle rarely used will last a mighty long time. ;D I've make axe handles from hard maple. The last ones I made about 30 years ago and I've never broke any of them. One is with me camping all summer. They were all hand carved.

Natives here used ash traditionally, and not white ash at all, it was black ash. It was used for basket weaving and snow shoes. It was lighter than white ash when it dried. I grew up near a reservation and they only used black ash. Even though there's lots of white ash to, they never touched it. They would pound the ash to loosen the fibres. It was a common sound to here, kinda like the church bells in a sense. They used to make baskets for potato picking, the farmers would buy a lot of them.

My father would also cut ash saplings and rive them in the spring to fix barrels, by replacing the outer hoops. The barrels were cedar, light. A full barrel of potatoes (165 lbs) is heavy enough without using a heavy wood. Those barrels were plenty strong to and made locally. ;)

Now-a-days you buy a tool with an ash handle and the replacement handle is often hickory and expensive, relatively speaking. Nothing wrong with hickory, but why import wood for such small market? If I had a choice, I'd reach for ironwood. ;) ;D
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Dodgy Loner

Quote from: SwampDonkey on May 19, 2014, 05:47:47 PM
NBAxeman, I don't know why you don't source some ironwood (O. virginiana). ;D This is a traditional axe handle wood up here in NB. Use of white ash, as far as my knowledge goes, was a commercialized venture because it grows bigger and very abundant.

I think the use of ash as a handle wood goes back way farther than that. Hickory is absent from Europe, so the finest wood at their disposal for thousands of years was European ash. Ash is still the predominant wood for handles in most of Europe. When the Europeans came to North America, they began utilizing the familiar white ash for handles before learning about the incredible strength of hickory. White ash is still a fine wood for handles, but hickory is, of course, better. Since we have hickory down here, I have never been tempted to use ironwood, but I have no doubt that it makes a fine handle. :)
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

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SwampDonkey

Could be, but I'm in NB not Europe, thus our tradition is different. I have heard over the years from many people, that they would like some ironwood for this handle or that. It is a tradition. Lots of people cherish a nice ironwood, while others consider it a weed. Hickory is another traditional wood down your way. That is my point. ;) Ash is a lot more abundant than ironwood, thus a lot easier to commercialize.
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1 Thessalonians 5:21

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Mark Wentzell

Used both white ash and ironwood handles when I competed in lumberjack competitions. Ironwood ones seemed to break less although it took a lot for either woods to break.

Seems a lot of the ironwood around here likes to grow crooked, might make it hard to find one that'll make a handle. A lot of it gets cut as firewood.




SwampDonkey

Ones I have grow nice and straight, so it could be site as much as anything I suppose. At the front steps of the 'Old' Forestry building at UNB is a big old ironwood tree. 8) :)  Most of that building was from local material. The birdseye maple laboratory tables in the wood products class, the slate steps and chalk boards, the maple floors, and the stone exterior walls. My grandmother's cousin was in the first graduating class of Foresters from there, who became chief forester of NB. ;)

I have two here on the lawn, I like the papery fruit sacks when they are still green, real showy.
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1 Thessalonians 5:21

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WDH

When you open up the canopy here on the hardwood sites, the ostrya goes wild.  It is hard to control, and it will take over as it is shade tolerant. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Magicman

One more "nother" question about Black Locust.  When I am clearing with the tractor, I see that Black Locust will break and shatter more easily while Hickory, Elm, etc. will bend.  How would this figure into the handle equation?  Still just curious.   ???
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LeeB

I got a nother nother (Tom?) question. What about some other none tradtionals like hackberry and sycamore? Too weak, too interlocked? What other woods wood you mebbe use?
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Dodgy Loner

Quote from: Magicman on May 20, 2014, 08:36:43 AM
One more "nother" question about Black Locust.  When I am clearing with the tractor, I see that Black Locust will break and shatter more easily while Hickory, Elm, etc. will bend.  How would this figure into the handle equation?  Still just curious.   ???

Strength characteristics don't tell the whole story, but the modulus of elasticity and modulus of rupture for air-dry black locust is comparable to hickory and higher than ash. I still think that quality black locust would make a decent handle. Black locust down here tends to be small and to have a lot of defect from locust borers, which may help explain the weakness that you have noted. Larger, healthier trees will yield better wood.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Al_Smith

I have no doubt that the wood might change depending on the area .Mineral content climate etc .

I've seen black locust up to two feet in diameter and once a honey locust over 4 feet . Ironwood (hop horn beam ) seldom over 12 inches with maybe over 100 growth rings in that small of a tree.Talk about dense .

I've got both 3 feet ash,EAB dead of course and 3 feet shagbark .The shag is stronger but will not take weather .Ash to weather is so so ,not the best .

NBaxeman

Swamp Donkey;

Actually, we shouldn't steer people too far down the path with Ironwood.  Traditionally, NOT being ring porous it has poor shock-resistance - unlike ash, oak and hickory.  However, it's tensile strength is incredible due to its dense nature and is why it was always used for whiffle-trees here for centuries.   Even now I use Ironwood for turning peavey handles....you simply can't break them cross-grain.    However, Ironwood in a chopping (axe) handle is murder.....white knuckle you to death as it carries all the vibrations right into your hand.   

I will only use Ironwood in a handle that is not used for chopping (like a throwing axe handle, or a kettle boil handle).   I've made a few because they sure are pretty.....but pragmatically, pretty useless in a chopping handle.   I have turned out 5 peavey handles recently - all of ironwood and they are certainly impressive.  Hey Mark - who made your ironwood chopping handle??

By the way donkey - I'm here in Keswick Ridge.

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: Al_Smith on May 21, 2014, 08:09:57 AM
I have no doubt that the wood might change depending on the area .Mineral content climate etc .

I agree. Down here, our ash is useless for chopping handles. It's green ash, not white ash, which has always been considered inferior, but I made a hammer handle from it once for lack of hickory, and the thing broke cross-grain the very first time I used it. I've never seen anything like it. It was frighteningly easy to break. I still use our ash for things like froe handles, but never again for a hammer or axe. Even though I'm referring to two different (but very similar, from a morphological viewpoint) species, it would not surprise me if a wide variance in wood properties were present within a single species, either. Especially a species as variable and with as wide a range as black locust.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

isawlogs

 Traditionaly I have always made my axe handles with Ironwood, only recently have I tried White ash, I may be getting some hickory this summer if a friend here comes across some that I could go pick up.  :)
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

SwampDonkey

I never remember my uncle complaining about ironwood when splitting several cords of stove wood by hand every spring by the barn. Tough I guess. I do remember complaints of broken ash handles, when he went to his uncle to make a good ironwood one. What ash does, and every handle I've seen is it splits right down the pore wood and now you have a head with a spear on one end and a shortened handle with a spear point on it to. I don't remember ironwood doing that. I only seen ironwood fail when the wood was chewed up so bad it had no choice but fail. :D ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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