Trying to train my helper

[petefrom bearswamp]

I have a fellow who helps me in return for cigarette and gas money as well as all my Hemlock slabs which i cant sell or legally burn.
Yesterday we cut 71 2x10x12 Hemlock planks.
I had trouble getting thru to him not to carry any more than absolutely necessary.
I use the board return and he piles directly behind the mill 5 planks wide  so after carrying one plank on each tier he can slide the other 4.
Wouldn't listen and his butt was sure dragging at the end of the day.
Just for kicks I weighed one plank and it weighed 95 pounds which I think is a good average weight.
He must have exerted a fraction of a  horsepower doing it his way.
I think I remember that 1 HP was 550 pounds per minute.
He carried on the average 1-1/2 per minute when I got the cant squared or .259 HP
What was it Forest Gump said?
I seems to fit this fellow, but he is a good worker and reliable when I need him.

[Magicman]

I like customsawyer's philosophy.  Never carry both ends of the same board.   ;D

[Nomad]

     There's one ranch I work at where I get a helper like that.  He's a great and hardworking guy, but I can't get him to work smarter.  With the trailer for the boards set up behind the mill, he refuses to let me use the dragback.  He'd rather pull the board off the side of the mill, then carry it to the trailer.  I've shown him how the dragback will let him pick it up and slide it directly onto the trailer.  He just won't do it!
     It doesn't really slow me down 'cuz he works HARD.  But it's frustrating to see him put out so much effort with no reason for it.

[petefrom bearswamp]

I like Magicmans philosophy.
But when sawing alone I don't have a choice, so that is why I seldom saw alone anymore.
\Pete

[thecfarm]

Well I was going to say,either he'll smarten up or quit. But nomad proved me wrong. 

[york]

Pete one horse power is to lift 33,000 lbs.up one foot,in one minute...
Albert

[drobertson]

 There are easier ways to carry lumber and those a lil more difficult. Training is a brutal Proposition in regards to keeping the flow.  time will correct these issues. 

[petefrom bearswamp]

Albert you are right on the time aspect, it has been 50 years since I took mechanical engineering courses so i forgot.
it is ft pounds per minute and second not just pounds.
By the way the trailer I bought from you in 2009 is being used by my Alma mater the NYS Ranger School for the forestry competition team.
Pete

[tmarch]

     There's one ranch I work at where I get a helper like that.  He's a great and hardworking guy, but I can't get him to work smarter.  With the trailer for the boards set up behind the mill, he refuses to let me use the dragback.  He'd rather pull the board off the side of the mill, then carry it to the trailer.  I've shown him how the dragback will let him pick it up and slide it directly onto the trailer.  He just won't do it!
     It doesn't really slow me down 'cuz he works HARD.  But it's frustrating to see him put out so much effort with no reason for it.

Sounds like a ranch I work at-oh wait I own it and work it alone.

[Tom L]

I had a guy who worked for me for years, he was an old guy from south america. very talented, type of guy you could give any project too and it would come out perfect.
one time I put a helper with him , he came to me complaining that this guy was a nickel. I didn't know what he meant.
then he explained, no matter how hard you polish a nickel you can never turn it into a quarter.

he was right. the guy was at his max at a nickel. never will get any smarter or worth more than he is at the present time. so the helper that can't stack wood any smarter will mostly never stack wood any smarter. he is at his level
and no matter how much you teach him. he will still revert back to stacking wood like he did when he started. which in all accounts is fine, as long as he is not costing you too much money and shows up all the time.

[sealark37]

My first sawmill/sawyer mentor, Jack Sheppard, once told me that it was hard to get smart people to help on a sawing job, because smart people didn't like to hang around a sawmill.  While on my next break, I carefully considered this fact and determined it to be true.    Stupid IS as stupid does!      Regards, Clark

[Ken]

It is a fact of life that there are some out there with more brawn than brain.  Many of those who insist on doing something a way they are comfortable with are also very loyal employees although often hard to watch.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Often work with a guy who always walks on the wrong side of the board.  Has to pick it up and turn 180 degrees.  Board after board.   Sometimes I step in and move one off without the rotation.  But he doesn't change his ways.

[drobertson]

It is weird how some folks take boards off.  I reckon it could be one of two things, one they don't want to be told, two, they are comfortable doing it that way.  One way seems quicker and easier to me, the other, a lot of battles,
It just takes time, and patience to work with many folks.

[Chuck White]

Often work with a guy who always walks on the wrong side of the board.  Has to pick it up and turn 180 degrees.  Board after board.   Sometimes I step in and move one off without the rotation.  But he doesn't change his ways.

I had a regular helper a few years ago who did exactly this same way!

It's like the old saying "you can't teach an old dog new tricks".  Showed him a few times, then gave up.

He'd even walk over to the slab pile with ONE (1) sticker, instead of waiting for a few!

:-\

[SawyerBrown]

It's amazing how much "smarter" you become after back surgery and loss of strength, and you wish you'd been "smarter" a long time ago, which may have prevented the back surgery in the first place!

I always carry some 2-3' sections of 2" and 3" PVC pipe, they can act as rollers.  Yesterday a guy came with a couple of walnut logs he had loaded on his trailer with a tractor ... now how to get them off?  PVC pipe down, roll the log onto the PVC pipe, and then a gentle push.  (Getting them over the angle at the ramp was a little trickier ...).  I've also used them in combination with the toe rollers on the mill to move big planks onto the trailer ....  Understanding levers and fulcrums has also come in handy SO many times.

[bandmiller2]

Its called BMS (bull moose syndrome) usally trying to impress someone or just plain dumb. What you do in your youth will come back to haunt you when you get old. Some folks never learn to work smart, others can do a tough job and make it look effortless, thems are the keepers. Frank C.

[Magicman]

Sometimes folks have learned how to look or act like they are working without doing anything.  They can stand there with one sticker in their hand and have that huge question mark hanging over their heads.  I call it "learned lazy".

[justallan1]

I've watched guys killing themselves on a green chain in log mills trying to muscle the boards, after showing them the right way of doing it a few times, and for the most part it was a case of some big guy that was just to strong or macho or whatever to listen to someone smaller than them. Other times it was just never going to happen and they were moved elsewhere.
If it's not slowing you down or dangerous I'd let him do it that way. Possibly he feels like it's wrong to be standing and waiting for the next board and is staying busy doing it his way.

Allan

[drobertson]

Kinda wish I had a helper today, ;D  maybe tomorrow,

[Dave Shepard]

What's that saying? Strong like bull, smart like tractor? :D

[thecfarm]

I always look for the easy way to do something. That is just the lazy part of me.  ;D

[5quarter]

Electric Al has a video of him and his Wife sawing up some cherry. Al is running the saw. His wife is tailing the boards. His wife is edging the boards. his wife is stacking the boards. I can't be sure, but I believe his wife was also fixing dinner and running the laundry while she was waiting for Al to catch up. Now there's a keeper.  ;) :D

[Quebecnewf]

This is an interesting subject. Me and my better half log and saw together all the time. With the passing of time and getting older we have come up with many different ways to work smarter. Winches,different sleighs,different strapping of logs to sleighs,Yarding methods, lumber stacking methods, in short everything to handle the logs or lumber as little as possible.

There is one thing  that my better half does , and we have talked about it. When I am sawing and she is tailing, she takes each slab to the slab pile as they come of the log. Given that many of our slabs are small I have told her to wait for the next one and cut her walking down by half. No way. This is the way I do it and that's it.

What you gonna do,  I now just shut up and saw.

By the way she cooks and does laundry. After 30 years I guess she's a keeper.
But if only she would tail the way I want !!!

Quebecnewf

[Magicman]

Sounds like it's the weight.  She can walk easier than she can carry.

[customsawyer]

I have a customer that I saw for about once a year and he is a football coach at the local high school. His helpers are always young men that just came out of the weight room. After the first day of cutting for him I started to take my wife (5'2 and about 120 lbs.) with me. These young men will jump in there early in the morning working like bulls in a china closet but after a couple of hours their tongue will be hanging out to their boots. I might be guilty of turning it up just a bit to give them a taste of what working for a living is like. Well when they stop to take a break the wife will step in and handle the lumber the right way and those young fellers will sit there with their jaws open talking about how tough my wife is, since she is doing what was taking both of them to do and doing it faster. The coach sits back and just grins. I think he has started buying logs and selling lumber just so he can get some of his jocks to stop and think for a minute when out on the football field.

[beenthere]

customsawyer
Your story reads much like a friend who was a home-building foreman who's company boss hired some summertime college football players and put them on his building crews.
Some real problems arose when the FB players could not keep up the pace for more than short periods of time, couldn't handle a 5/8 full sheet of plywood, would have multiple aches and pains and constantly claim they needed to rest, etc. etc. It was pretty sad but the boss finally relented and found something for them to do that wasn't work related and wasn't slowing down the home-building work.

[Full Chisel]

Lol. You have a helper? Sometimes the top-heavy management scheme forget that training requires communication and that's a two-way street.

[Nomad]

     My grandfather owned a company building residential homes.  When I was about 13 or so, I went to help him during summer vacation.  He had a couple of college students working there too, along with his regular crew.
     One day we needed to shovel 2 truck loads of gravel into the basement of a new home.  One was on each end of the building.  He gave one of these big college students one pile, and the other one to a little kid.  (Me.)
     That college student had a bit of a sneer to him, and figured he was pretty hot stuff.
     Well, my grandfather showed me how to operate a shovel smartly and didn't show the showoff.  In a couple of hours I finished my pile and offered to help out the other guy.  He quit on the spot.  Sometimes the trainee needs to understand that training may be required, too.  Even for something as simple as operating a shovel.

[thecfarm]

The shovel story reminds me of just about the same thing. Went to help my brother split wood. He had one of his friends there,a big guy. I was all of 14,100 pounds soaking wet. We got teamed up,my brother made sure of it as he watched out of sight. My brother had some good size wood to split. This big guy walks up to a big piece and kinda pushes a skinney kid out of the way,starts to whale on it with his splitting maul, After he wacks it 6-7 times,he finally stops and looks at me and say,Man,that splits hard. I hand him an iron wedge and said,Try that, He takes it and said,I never seen one of these. I take it back and start to use it. It pops open. He said, Got another one of those? Yep and off we go splitting wood.

[Delawhere Jack]

Hey Pete, is this helper named Mongo?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8cDfnQD0ws

I get some funny looks when I show up at a job sometimes. All 5' 5 9/16" and 148lbs of me....  ;D After a few hours they've either learned a little about leverage and the wonder of fossil fuels, or they're ready to call it a day.

[petefrom bearswamp]

Name not Mongo, name Buck.
Doubt he could do the deed with one punch, might take 2
He should be here in about an hour.
He is punctual and has the mill ready to go with a log on the mill if one is on the deck and the masts and chains lubricated.
Today will be only 2x4x8 and a little order gathering from stock so even if he works dumb he should not be dragging at days end.

[FarmingSawyer]

My first sawmill/sawyer mentor, Jack Sheppard, once told me that it was hard to get smart people to help on a sawing job, because smart people didn't like to hang around a sawmill.  While on my next break, I carefully considered this fact and determined it to be true.    Stupid IS as stupid does!      Regards, Clark

Can't let this one pass...... I think he just insulted us all.... :D
Guess I wasn't too smart tho...I hung around the sawmill chasing the sawyer's daughter.....hoping to own the mill one day. Guess I picked the wrong mill and the wrong sawyer's daughter.... : Where's the singles section of the FF? Been lookin for a new gal addicted to sawdust, diesel and sap......

[delvis]

Some people are 'strong like tractor, smart like tractor' and you cannot convince them there is a better way to do something.  I am incredibly fortunate to have one of the smartest people I have ever met, my father, help show me the best way to do something so I don't work like the tractor. 

Dad is the kind of guy that can have something explained to him and he can picture it in his head and know exactly what you mean.  I am more of the 'show me what you're talking about and then I'll get it' kind of guy.  Lol. 

[LaneC]

If you can, you may be a little more cautious around him also. Loyalty is great and it sounds like you have some good help, but take it from someone who's whole career has been ruined, and an extreme amount of misery, pain and grief has been dealt, because of someone else trying to "do things their way" instead of listening to reason and doing something the right and safest way. If they do not listen when it seems that all is well, they certainly will not listen when the time comes that it is important to listen. Please do not think I am calling the fellow lazy because there are different types of lazy, but there is an old saying that I like to use :A lazy man works the hardest. If you think about that saying I find it true. No matter what type of work you are doing, if you do it right and smart and do not try and work hard at getting out of work, then you are doing it smartly. Just my thought. Hopefully it is not taken the wrong way. Be careful and good luck.

[New Brunswick]

My huge hearted cousin helps me sometimes, he clearly can lift 1/2 a ton, just don't ask him to spell it, bless his big ape body  say_what

[Peter Drouin]

My huge hearted cousin helps me sometimes, he clearly can lift 1/2 a ton, just don't ask him to spell it, bless his big ape body  say_what

I can use a guy like that. 8)

[backwoods sawyer]

I done a big milling job for a guy that hired two helpers when he introduced them he said they come as a "Team" you give the "Driver" all the instructions and he will have the "Mule" get it done

The driver was on another tasked so I asked the Mule to assist moving a log, he gave me this look :-\ Driver soon showed up and the Team had the log turned and headed to the mill. 
They were one of the best teams I have worked with ;)

[Magicman]

My customer's two helpers called last night and said no.  We will decide what to do when he get's help.  I have enjoyed my unscheduled day off.   ;D

[Sawyer4fun]

One of the best things I ever learned was actually from my son.  He was helping me out one day and I noticed he was approaching the job differently than I had and that his way was much more efficient (time and effort, same quality).  Of course when I asked him how he figured that out he said "Dad, if you ever want to find the best way to do something ... just get a lazy person to help you".  Every job I do now I think about this and have saved myself from doing things the "long" way many times  

[blade69001]

    It cracks me up, reading this thread. Peter's Principle does not only apply to management that is just where people know the term. Every week day I have 20 or so guys come to work who prove it to me.  I have learned in life that some I can teach, and some I cant. So I let those I can't go learn from a better teacher than I am. I teach the ones I can to do it my way because we all know that I know the best way to do everything right? :D

Peter's Principle essentially states that one shall rise to their own level of incompetence. Now for me the question is " Am I at that level or are they at the level? Either way in order for improvement to happen something has to change.

just my $.02 and some sarcastic perspective


Sean P.

[petefrom bearswamp]

Well, Buck is making progress.
Did well at the mill today and kept busy while I was gabbing with 3 customers as well as getting a log truck to the mill in very slippery mud.
Tomorrow I am giving him the ultimate challenge.
I have a customer coming at 4pm and need to be at a dinner party AT 5.
Have to leave early.
Will school him on the essentials and hope all goes OK.
Also hope the customer doesn't screw him (me) too.
Plan to give him a bonus of a pack of cigs if he does well.
Peter

[beenthere]

Plan to give him a bonus of a pack of cigs if he does well.

That is sad. Why not something to help him quit, rather than aid and abet?

[FarmingSawyer]

Working at sawmills is one of the reasons I quit smoking...... it plain wasn't allowed. Too risky for fire, either from the sawdust or the fuel shed, or out in the woods cutting. Everyone else used snoose, but I couldn't stand the stuff. The ole sawyer chewed gum incessantly...picked it up in the army in Korea....plain chewing gum is a great alternative. I always got a brick of it to start the month out with, then I was on my own . Guess I got lucky and got addicted to sawdust when I was 22 and didn't keep hammering away at the coffin nails......