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Tree Falling Direction ?

Started by Robert11, April 20, 2014, 02:27:02 PM

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treeslayer2003

almost the same exact post was made on AS over a year ago.

CCC4

Quote from: treeslayer2003 on April 21, 2014, 05:18:36 PM
almost the same exact post was made on AS over a year ago.

Yup....LOL! Word for word if I remember right!  :)

John Vander

Robert11, here is another calculation that needs to be taken into account: Making a face cut 60% into the wood makes sense on paper, but there is also the issue of gravity (down force & kickback). If the hinge on a tree with a too deep scarf (face cut) breaks, all that weight sitting in the crown will push the tree back over the stump, killing the faller. The way felling cuts are made has more to do with safety rather than mathematic calculations, although we cannot leave the math out of it all together, especially when rigging is set up and forces are measured. Your skills would come in pretty handy here!
Tree and saw accidents nullify years of forestry experience.

luvmexfood

And there is the ocassional tree that no matter what you do is going to go where it wants too. Cut one last month, checked the lean, cut a good notch, used wedges and did not want to fall. Couple of good wacks on the wedges and heard it creaking and groaning. One more hard wack on a wedge and down it started. Exactly backwards of how it was cut to go. Right over the wedges and here it came. No one hurt and a good lesson to always have a good escape route and when things go awry forget about the saw.

Get the heck out of Dodge.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

John Vander

Tree and saw accidents nullify years of forestry experience.

gologit

Quote from: treeslayer2003 on April 21, 2014, 05:18:36 PM
almost the same exact post was made on AS over a year ago.

True.  But people over there weren't as polite and helpful as they've been here. ::)

About all I can add to this thread is to agree with Redprospector.  He's been there.  He knows.
Semi-retired...life is good.

redprospector

1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

David-L

Physics are always in play when cutting trees, I would suggest a lesson or two in directional felling and chainsaw use and saftey. Sometimes no matter what, you can end up with a tree that does not cooperate. This was a White Pine I cut recently that after numerous wedges  and cutting the hinge to try to get it to move did not budge. It was in a funky spot and the skidder was not in play, cut the hinge on one side finally with escape route planned and away she went. Back to the post, be carefull of barber chairs and face cuts to deep, they can be killers my friend.

                                                          David



 
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

SawyerBrown

Quote from: chester_tree_farmah on April 21, 2014, 01:36:49 PM
My reply was to sawyer brown who sounds like he is truly interested in learning the art.

Well, I wouldn't go that far -- I'm going to leave this to you professionals!   :D  I'd just like to be able to talk intelligently with these guys (like those clearing lots for building, or tree services), so that I can say, "Hey, would you mind using an open face plunge (for example) so we don't get so much tearing in this nice log?" 

I've done just a little independent research, and I'm still not sure I get it, chester.  With an open face plunge, you're actually cutting through most of the hinge, right?  So do you end up with two "short" hinges out in the sapwood area?  The other thing that's confusing is how you end up with holding wood.  I understand the concept, but one article I read said to plunge cut all the way to the other side ... so where is the holding wood?  Or, do you not cut all the way through, but try to come out the sides to give you an opening / starting point for finishing the hinge?

OK, I guess I am interested in learning the art!  Thanks, Professor!
Pete Brown, Saw It There LLC.  Wood-mizer LT35HDG25, Farmall 'M', 16' trailer.  Custom sawing only (at this time).  Long-time woodworker ... short-time sawyer!

chester_tree _farmah

Lol. No u don't cut all the way through as u are cutting towards the back of the tree. u stop before that and leave a small amount of holding wood on the back. The hinge is the same as any hinge. But by using a plunge cut you get to cut your hinge to its finished thickness before u release the tree. Plunge cutting into the face is usually only done if u are cutting a tree that is wider than twice your bar length. To get get the wood in the middle your bar can't reach from either side. But some bore the into the hinge to it to prevent pulling. Adds to the danger though as u reduce the hinge strength.  I know it's confusing to get from words. I will look for a good example with pics on line. Off to work now though.....
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

treeslayer2003

Quote from: SawyerBrown on April 23, 2014, 07:29:21 AM
Quote from: chester_tree_farmah on April 21, 2014, 01:36:49 PM
My reply was to sawyer brown who sounds like he is truly interested in learning the art.

Well, I wouldn't go that far -- I'm going to leave this to you professionals!   :D  I'd just like to be able to talk intelligently with these guys (like those clearing lots for building, or tree services), so that I can say, "Hey, would you mind using an open face plunge (for example) so we don't get so much tearing in this nice log?" 

I've done just a little independent research, and I'm still not sure I get it, chester.  With an open face plunge, you're actually cutting through most of the hinge, right?  So do you end up with two "short" hinges out in the sapwood area?  The other thing that's confusing is how you end up with holding wood.  I understand the concept, but one article I read said to plunge cut all the way to the other side ... so where is the holding wood?  Or, do you not cut all the way through, but try to come out the sides to give you an opening / starting point for finishing the hinge?

OK, I guess I am interested in learning the art!  Thanks, Professor!
I think you are talking about boring from the face? that is for a heavy leaner or certain trees that split or pull fiber bad. don't confuse this with GOL that bores or plunges from the side behind the hinge and out the back. there are many different cutting styles, to add to your confusion.

chester_tree _farmah

See if this helps. They guy has one of those cool mule forwarders too.

http://timbergreenforestry.com/Felling%20an%20Oak.html

Here is thread on this site with a video and opinions which we all have. Wish he used a larger tree but a good video.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,39973.0/nowap.html

254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

Farmer Jim

I am not a professional and I didn't stay at Holiday Inn, but I am a graduate student at Trial and Error/Self Taught U..  I was having problems with splitting at the hinge and fiber pull on Ash until I started boring parallel with the hinge and setting the proper hinge width. After that proceeding as normal if it's a leaner or one that needs wedging etc... . Has helped me stop messing up the butt log.
"I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."  J.B.Books

Ianab

Quote from: Farmer Jim on April 24, 2014, 06:45:39 AM
I am not a professional and I didn't stay at Holiday Inn, but I am a graduate student at Trial and Error/Self Taught U..  I was having problems with splitting at the hinge and fiber pull on Ash until I started boring parallel with the hinge and setting the proper hinge width. After that proceeding as normal if it's a leaner or one that needs wedging etc... . Has helped me stop messing up the butt log.

Sounds correct.

That's the GOL preferred method, and the best way  to fell trees with a heavy forward lean.

This old thread is about dropping a big forward leaning cypress. Same method you describe, but 54" across the stump.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,22582.0.html

But what you have described is legit felling technique, and good for trees that are prone to splitting or heavy forward learners.

Carry on

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Big Rooster

I will agree with the engineer on this one and even praise him for finally pointing this out.

I tell my guys if you are wedging a lot you are losing money.  Now yes everyone must wedge some trees every day but if you follow the engineers train of thought you can vastly improve your number of trees cut per day.  Even many so called professional fallers out here only take that 1/4 to 1/3 face. What you have to do is not necessarily go 50% but look at that tree and figure out where the hinge( center of gravity) should be.  Next you have to make your back cut (using this momentum) and finally you have to cut your holding wood all the way up to 1/4 or 1/2 inch.  This is critical if you don't cut that holding wood up it won't work.

This technique works on softwoods (no hardwoods out west here).  But I always get a kick out of the OSHA approved way where you take 1/4 to 1/3 face and then leave 1-2"holding wood back and up and then put 8 wedges in and pound the living pith out of it.  They do this on wildfires a lot...real safe. 

Find the center of gravity, make a face (Humbolt), and come in dead level on your back cut and leave almost no holding wood.  It works like a charm....though certainly not the safest way to learn to cut.  This technique comes from sawing 300-500 tree a days for line machines and cat skidders for 10 years.

My disclaimer for the engineer would be don't use this on hardwoods, or over 35" trees, and everything must be adjusted for lean, sweep, rot etc.  After cutting 10,000 trees you'll put his whole deal all together and read the tree in your head for center of gravity, lean, diameter, etc.

ANd lastly if you think you may need a wedge with this technique just stick it in the back cut by hand and that is normally all it takes. 

And yes I do get stuck!!!

mesquite buckeye

Seems like a great way to lose control of the tree and get killed. :-\

The reason for the higher backcut is to keep the tree from coming back over the stump and hitting the logger. You can probably get away with level cuts as long as there is no chance of hitting another tree on the way down, at least for a while. The holding wood keeps the log from breaking free from the stump prematurely and spinning out of control when hitting a side obstruction like overlapping branches. Combine the two and you can get a log that spins and flies back toward you at the same time. No thanks. I want no part of that. If I have to wedge it to get it to go over, so be it. I would rather live and be uninjured for a little longer than gain a little production at the risk of my life or health. The woods is a dangerous enough place without adding unneeded risk. I hope your luck continues to hold. Really.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

CCC4

Guys...This is ALL good information and people can learn from some of the posts in this thread, but before any tempers flare or the topic starts getting touchy...I would like to reinforce my opinion that this thread is most likely a farce. I don't know what exactly the OP's goal is here but...he ain't coming back. Any "put forth" effort at this point is pretty much mute.

I may be totally wrong... and will apologize to the OP if I am...then ask him if he has his original published somewhere that he can just randomly post the exact question once a year on random logging forums, then never have the courtesy to at least Thank the members here for their time and information.

redprospector

Quote from: Ianab on April 24, 2014, 07:29:51 AM
Sounds correct.

That's the GOL preferred method, and the best way  to fell trees with a heavy forward lean.

This old thread is about dropping a big forward leaning cypress. Same method you describe, but 54" across the stump.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,22582.0.html

But what you have described is legit felling technique, and good for trees that are prone to splitting or heavy forward learners.

Carry on

Ian
I'm not going to start a pissing match here. But to say that any method (GOL approved or not) is the best way to fall any tree is painting with a pretty broad brush in my book.
There are many ways to deal with heavy head lean (boring included), and each one should be just another tool in ones bag of tricks. To say that any method is the best, or only way for every tree, or situation is to limit yourself, and your ability.
Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

redprospector

Quote from: CCC4 on April 25, 2014, 12:46:50 AM
Guys...This is ALL good information and people can learn from some of the posts in this thread, but before any tempers flare or the topic starts getting touchy...I would like to reinforce my opinion that this thread is most likely a farce. I don't know what exactly the OP's goal is here but...he ain't coming back. Any "put forth" effort at this point is pretty much mute.

I may be totally wrong... and will apologize to the OP if I am...then ask him if he has his original published somewhere that he can just randomly post the exact question once a year on random logging forums, then never have the courtesy to at least Thank the members here for their time and information.
Yeah, you're probably right. But it's so much fun.  :D
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

SawyerBrown

chester, good videos, very helpful, thanks!  For the few trees that I'll be cutting, I'd rather be conservative/safe than trying to meet a production quota.  And, at least in the video, there wasn't much tear with the well-cut and thin hinge.  So, the key seems to be to have a nice thin hinge, and you can get there AND keep the tree stable by using the holding wood and maybe wedges.  Is that about it?

Back to the original theoretical question ("perfect" tree, dead straight, no wind, etc etc), it seems to me the tree would initially tend to lean backwards, since the center of the tree is in compression and the outer part is in tension.  So as you release / cut through the tension on one side, the tension on the other side would upset the balance, and you'd never recover without the use of a wedge.  (Again, all theoretical ... from another engineer ...).
Pete Brown, Saw It There LLC.  Wood-mizer LT35HDG25, Farmall 'M', 16' trailer.  Custom sawing only (at this time).  Long-time woodworker ... short-time sawyer!

chester_tree _farmah

You are welcome Mr browne.

To all:

We know the original poster is a troll but it's fun to talk about this stuff as prospecter says and we learn from each other sometimes.

Just to be clear. I don't use this cut for every tree nor do a wedge every single tree. If I am cutting pulp wood and the tree is small I use the traditional open face with no bore. If the tree is small and leaning just enough in the right direction I don't always wedge it. But I do find myself at least popping a wedge in by hand more and more, even on no brainers. Nothing worse than having a saw pinched to slow u down. Takes about 5 seconds to reach into your pouch and grab a wedge and pop it in the back side cut.




254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

gologit

Semi-retired...life is good.

chinahand

I think you've answered your own question, Robert, though my answer probably suffers from some technical inadequacy (apologies to the logger-physicists among us).  By envisioning a wedge cut that removed 60% of the diameter of the tree, your intuition--which is correct--is that the tree would "naturally" fall towards the wedge.  Even a 30% cut has displaced a significant enough mass that the tree will begin leaning in that direction.  Cutting from the back (or using a plunge cut, wedging, then nipping the back), releases the compensating counter force from the back; gravity still wants the tree to fall forward.  The reason we don't cut 60% is that doing so releases the dynamic forces of gravity too early, which spells danger, since the wedge--and your saw--will not have been entirely removed (key to a controlled fall, and the health of both you and your saw). You want to be able to cut in a non-dynamic situation. 

chester_tree _farmah

Myself. I have a 90 acre track up here in Maine and I have been cutting 3-5 wheeler loads a year plus my firewood. Been doing it since 93. Working to improve my stand and it keeps me in shape. I have loved the woods and trees since I was a boy. It's a sickness I think.  My best friends father was a  logger so I worked for him when I was a boy. That may be where it started. Or it is my French Canadian mothers blood. I do know how it is to have to rush though. Between the wife and kids and all I never seem to get enough time out there. :-)
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

BEEMERS

I think that if someone wanted to get a discussion,perhaps heated..this would be the topic! Noone technique works for all trees.I usually come in flush with my falling cut...On Soft woods..that are on a very slight lean or none. I stay a couple inches higher on hard woods like was said its a great safety measure and it seems to cause the pulls to come out of the stump moreso as opposed to the butt log.
Wedges are your best friend..Talk all you want about loss of production but have a tree come backwards or sit back on your saw..see how the production goes.
The plunge cut..unless every tree you cut has no more than very slight lean.. you better learn this..not only to save the log but to save your life..It prevents barber chairs..You have a tree split and end up horizontal ten or more feet in the air above your head..you better clean your pants out a reread what Ianab posted.
Like  said its a perfect way to start a heated debate..If I was gonna do it...Id pick.."Whats better tree-farmer vs Timberjack"...or "Do Iron Mules really even exist" or "Do Grits exist in the North"..."Morel Mushrooms are poisonous DONT EAT"..That would get somebody goin... :D

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