??Calculating board feet on framing lumber??

[caveman]

When sawing framing lumber, 2x4's may be sawn from green logs at 1 5/8" x3 5/8" (assuming shrinkage when drying).  Do you calculate the board footage to determine the fee the customer pays by multiplying 2"x 4" or the actual sizes sawn?  My intention is to charge a board foot rate based on the numerical size of the boards rather than the actual size but would like to know what is the common practice among you with more experience.

As an example, eighteen 2"x8"x12' would be 288bf.
The same stack measured at 1.625" x7.375" x 12',(assuming a fresh rough sawn 2"x8" is 7 3/8" wide) would be 215bf. 
At the end of the day, these differences can make quite a difference on the final price.  Thanks for your suggestions,
Caveman

 

[ladylake]

I charge for the actual size ,not air.    Steve

[bandmiller2]

I always cut to the inch size less kerf in other words a 2x4 is 1 7/8x 3 7/8. I'll cut anything they want but its considered special order if it varies from my standard. Frank C.

[TimGA]

Actual size.
Use this to your advantage 2x4x8 =5.3 bf  $3.00 at Lowes. You can cut him same 1.5 x 3.5 x 8 =3.5 bf for $1.23
at .35 bf rate. That's using his logs he still has to stack and dry and take some loss on a few that will go crook. Just my way.
                                           Tim

[drobertson]

I figure it like this, anything over 1-1/2" is considered 2".  Some folks want full 2x's while others prefer closer to dimensional.  Changing the pattern to suit any request is really not an issue with the Accuset  works, so special cuts make no difference to me. I just need to know what is required.  I have noticed quite the dissatisfaction in recent years from folks regarding lumber yard quality.  It seems one has to sort through bundles just to get straight boards,

[WDH]

Actual dimensions.  No air for me, either.  A 1.5" board is not a 2" board.  It is a 1.5" board.  Calling a board a 2x4 is just a product name, and while calling a 1.5" board a 2" board is the convention in the Industry, when the day is done, it is still a 1.5" board if you measure it. 

[Magicman]

I do not sell lumber, I provide a sawing service.  I saw whichever dimension the customer wants, (actual or dimension) and the price is the same.  I do not adjust my sawing rate for sawing different dimensions.

If the customer prefers that I saw "hourly rate" then that is OK too.  My job is to provide a quality product and satisfy the customer.  All charges and rates are discussed and signed off on before the sawing begins.

[Chuck White]

I'm a mobile sawyer and when I saw the customers logs I always ask if they want the lumber sawed by the quarters scale (which allows for shrinkage) or just go by the yard-stick!

Usually customers will say I would like 2x4's as close to 2" x 4" as possible, so I just saw by the yardstick and the lumber will be half the kerf off!

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

All the large companies and all the grading associations for softwood lumber will count the BF based on the nominal size, not the actual size.  This has been the tradition for over a century. 

However, a large number of people selling 2x4x8' pieces (5.33 bf per piece) will sell on the basis of the number of pieces and not the footage.  In other words, one buys 400 2x4s, 12' long and not 3200 bf of 2x4s. 

I have seen several sawyers that have two prices available, one based on the nominal footage and one based on the actual size, but the bottom line is the same for either one--Magicman already said this.

[backwoods sawyer]

I mill 2x4 at 1 5/8 x 3 5/8 unless the customer request a different variation. At the end of the day i measure the stack, no air but some sawdust between layers, in some cases the stack moves so I tally pieces and multiply 1.63 x 3.63 x length x pieces x $.30 bft

Since i do not have a lumber yard I am not selling a product that the century old scale books refer to but rather a service using modern thin kerf saws to get the most recovery from the customers logs. I don't like being charged for air so I dought my customers would either.

If my customer wants 2x4 or 4x12 it still cost the same to mill the deck of logs, as the recovery from the logs will be close to the same. Where using the methods in the old scale books and milling 1 1/2 x 3 1/2 you will end up with considerably more bft out of the same logs on paper only which don't add studs to the walls. 

Good question as there is two sides to this question. If you are selling out of a lumber yard then it is a diferent senerio as it is a product not a service.

[Rockn H]

 I'm not selling them wood just a service.  At the same time I don't want them wondering if they're getting charged if I have to stop sawing for some reason, so I charge by the board foot based on the nominal size.   I have an example on my contract so it's there in writing.   It's how my prices are based, it's understood up front, and I've never had a complaint.  If they ask for 2x4's I'll ask if they want an actual 2x4 or if they want "store bought" sizes.  Same goes for 1" boards.  If they want 1/2" thick cedar for example, I charge based on 1x's.  It takes longer to saw two 1/2" boards than one 1" board, they wind up paying more than if I charged by the actual thickness, but they're paying for a service and not the lumber.   

One thing I've found is that most people I've sawn for figure the lumber needed for a project by nominal board foot.  They figure they need Xbf of 2x4, and not Xbf of 1 1/2x 3 1/2 if that makes since.   So at the end of each day, my saw tally is more useful for them to see where the BF is according to what they are needing.   Also, I charge 250/mbf, so a  2x4x8 or a 1.5x3.5x8 both cost you $1.32 for me to saw it. ;)

[lyle niemi]

I dont do any fancy charging, its either a 2x4, 2x6, 2x8  etc

[red oaks lumber]

i don't charge for something that isn't there when you buy logs you pay for whats there in the pile ,not 25% less

[ladylake]

At least some people have integrity.  Steve

[drobertson]

I reckon I have no integrity, but when I buy a 2x4 from the lumber yard, I have never seen a full 2x in any stretch of the imagination.  I am real glad I chat with folks with integrity,  I guess when we saw  5/8" or less stock, it is figured the same by footage?  There is a scale, and a cut is a cut.   Just saying, never had any complaints.  Lots of praise,   quality speaks volumes.  And there is volume when done proper and not in a rush for  bdft'g. 

[ladylake]

I really don't see what quality has to do with a 2 x4 or a 1.5 x 3.5. I saw quality and don't charge for air.  Steve

[drobertson]

Steve, I did for quite a while,  found I lost  in the matter,  If it works, then use it is my motto.  No disrespect intended at all for those who chose their scale.   

[red oaks lumber]

drobertson
awhile ago you were outraged at the price i would charge for 1 board, remember that? something to the effect "i was gouging" you said. well seems to me if you charge to saw something that isnt what it is, you are in effect gouging right? :(

[beenthere]

I saw quality and don't charge for air.

lady
Whatever trips your trigger, as long as you and the buyer are on the same page.
Others do it different, and doesn't mean they are wrong, or more "right"... IMO  ;)

Also, for this thread:
A "2x4" has long been just an identifying name for a product, and has also for a long not meant to be 2" x 4" size of wood.

[Brucer]

All the large companies and all the grading associations for softwood lumber will count the BF based on the nominal size, not the actual size.  This has been the tradition for over a century.  ...

In Canada the NLGA (National Lumber Grades Authority) specifies how softwood lumber is be measured. Specifically, the calculation is based on the nominal dimensions, while the length is rounded down to the nearest foot.

The whole purpose of this standard is to put everyone on the same page. Without some kind of standard you have the risk that someone will accuse you of selling them a 1-19/32" x 3-19/32" while you charged them for a 1-5/8" x 3-5/8".

The rules also allow the buyer and seller to establish a contract based on whatever standards they wish.

Having said all that, I am going to charge the customer enough for a piece of wood to pay for the raw material, cover my operating expenses, pick up a share of my overheads, and put enough in my pocket to make it worth my while to saw.

For the guy off the street I quote a price per linear foot for a given dimension. For the contractor familiar with the NLGA rules I'll quote a price per BF.

[backwoods sawyer]

All the large companies and all the grading associations for softwood lumber will count the BF based on the nominal size, not the actual size.  This has been the tradition for over a century.

This is for equalizing the "sale" of lumber not for providing a service. Many here do both sales and service and some do one or the other. So finding one answer that fits everyone is as Gene stated

I have seen several sawyers that have two prices available, one based on the nominal footage and one based on the actual size, but the bottom line is the same for either one

We all have our reasons to charge the way we do and both methods are sound.

[WDH]

If you sell a 2x4 that is 1.5" x 3.5" and it is planed and finished on all four sides, then I can see charging as if it is a 2x4 (in terms of BF) you buy at the store because it is the same.  If you rough saw a 1.5" x 3.5" piece that not planed and finished on all four sides, it is a 1.5" x 3.5" board, not a 2x4. 

You cannot call a rough sawn unfinished board the same as a planed and finished-all-four-sides board the same.  They are clearly not the same. 

[backwoods sawyer]

That is a good point when I worked in the production mill we milled white fir at 1.575  +or- .005 and Doug fir at 1.625 this was all checked thru out the day with calipers that down loaded into the computer and made corrections to saw sets if needed. Once stacked it went directly to kiln infeed doug fir was 72 hrs white fir 56 hrs in the kilns, using those grade rules that Gene refers to to skip plane down to 1.55. Everything went thru a high speed four head planer that shot out over a million bft in one day. (Two ten hr shifts)  That high speed planer that takes off just a few thousands cost as much to install and run as the sawmill its self. It is required to meet the rules in the grade books. The old 1940 Woods planer done the same job but at ¼ the speed.
Grade rules are there to insure equal product and the production mills adhere to all the rules that apply rather than picking out just one. We had weekly meeting to insure that they were being followd to the letter.

[Nomad]

If you sell a 2x4 that is 1.5" x 3.5" and it is planed and finished on all four sides, then I can see charging as if it is a 2x4 (in terms of BF) you buy at the store because it is the same.  If you rough saw a 1.5" x 3.5" piece that not planed and finished on all four sides, it is a 1.5" x 3.5" board, not a 2x4. 

You cannot call a rough sawn unfinished board the same as a planed and finished-all-four-sides board the same.  They are clearly not the same.

     As Backwoods points out, it's also kiln dried.  (Sorta.)

[WDH]

Good point.