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What are you really selling your lumber for?

Started by Kelvin, June 24, 2004, 08:32:17 PM

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Kelvin

I've seen and heard lots of different prices on lumber, from wholesale price lists to what my local woodworkers store sells for.  I've been having a heck of a time selling any lumber here in central michigan.  When i was thinking of buying my mill i talked with lots of mill owners (1/2 dozen) and i remember one fellow pointing at a stack of green cherry, ungraded, right off the mill and he said i just sold that 1,000 bd ft stack for $3,000!  That sounded good to me.

What do you guys actually sell your kiln dried hardwood for?  Is it easy?  I've been advertising in a couple of different papers with ads for 100 bd ft, 50 bd ft, and always say more available with no luck for a year or so.  I'm sitting on a couple thousand bd ft white oak, hard maple, and this and thats with a yard full of logs.  I can't stand to sell lumber for less than the mill will sell me a log.  (which seems to be about $1.00 bd ft in the log for a nice grade white oak)  I've been selling quarter sawn white oak onesy twosys at $3.00 a bd ft, but not enough to pay for the power in the shop.  Do you find you are better off selling a lot at really low prices just to get rid of it and get your name out, or sit on it till that right guy comes along.  

Home Depot sells red oak here for $7.00 a bd ft, and poplar for over $2.50 a bd ft.  Local woodworkers store sells quarter sawn white oak (which includes rift!) for $5.00 a bd ft.  I don't know how much they are really selling, but i've been seriously thinking about quiting the sawing thing do to a lack of sales.  I just can't find a demand for the lumber around here.  At estate sales and auctions hardwood (walnut, cherry, oak) goes for .50 bd ft.  ( mixed grades, mostly No. 2's with some No. 1's) Maybe this is the real price of wood?  I believe i'm making a judgement error somewhere in the process.  Either i'm thinking my wood is better than it is, or i'm really not trying to sell it.  I've tried setting wood out infront of the house as well.  Plenty of traffic, and i know that the people driving by are buying wood all the time.  Red oak off the mill, mostly No.2's, green, i've tried to sell for .75 a bd ft.  Sat there for 2 months till i took it in for being sick of looking at it.  

When i started i wanted to do higher end sawing.  Pay for the nicer logs, saw quarter sawn.  You know, sell higher because my LT-40 is not a production machine, and i'm a one man show.  I can't compete with the big wholesalers around here with the cabinet shops, and i don't want to saw plain red oak.  I've come to have an adverse relationship with any potential customers in my mind.  I feel their goal in life is to rip me off so that i can't make a living wage.  Its like they're all waiting around for when i auction off all my equipment, and all that lumber i've been hoarding.  I certainly can't seem to sell the low grade material.  The pallet mill pays .37 a bd ft if you saw and trim to their demensions which is 1/2" thick and 48" long so by the time you saw that pallet log you might as well pack up and go work at home depot for $9 an hour.  What do you guys think?  Does it take more time?  More advertising?  Unloading your lumber cheap to get your name out?  (If so, how do you ever raise your prices?)

There are quite a few ads in the local paper for hardwood lumber.  Maybe i've got a saturated market?  It doesn't seem like there is too much demand for plain old lumber.  Should i go out and buy that logosol 4 head molder and make flooring like magic?  Or molding?  Spend another $10k in the hopes of finding a market?  SHould i screw trying to sell lumber and build garden sheds or coffins or something?  What do you think?  Thanks for any ideas!  Sorry for the long, meandering post any help would be appreciated.

Frank_Pender

Yep, I can relate to all of your questions and answers and I do not come close to having the same sorts of trees you have in your neck of the woods.  I have been at this for almost fifteen years now and still have stacks of lumber piled around for months on end.   I have had to resort to giving whacks of lumber to some of the local high schools.  Which in and of itself is rather rewarding to have the students send you thank you notes and pictures of their finished projects. I have even given several loads to one of the state reform schools, which is perhaps the most rewarding.
Frank Pender

Hokiemill

Kelvin,

I can't speak much to the selling aspect since I've only recently acquired my mill and I'm just getting started down this path.  But I am an avid basement woodworker with lots of amateur woodworker buddies.  Our town of 60,000 (200,000 within a 40 minute circle) has a couple of lumber sellers, but one guy has pretty much cornered the market.  He's a broker not a sawyer and he just does it as a side business.  He's also a woodworker.  Three qtrs of his basment is stacked with lumber and he has a storage facility where he stores more.  Pretty much all of the local, amateur woodworkers buy from him.  Here's a sampling off of the most recent price list (I'll only list the 4/4):

Cherry           select & better   $4.50
Hard Maple    select & better    3.44
Soft Maple     FAS/1F              2.20
White oak      FAS/1F              2.40
     qtr sawn    FAS/1F              4.75
Red oak         FAS/1F              2.40
     qtr sawn    FAS/1F              3.90
Walnut           FAS/1F              3.00 to 5.00
Cedar (aromatic) 1 com            1.75
Poplar            FAS/1F             1.65

There is a 10% increase in the price if you buy 50 bf or less and if you want to pick through a stack there is a 20% upcharge.

My biggest suggestion would be to find the local woodworkers club/guild and start going to their meetings.  Spread your card around along with a list of what you usually have and what the prices are.  As a woodworker I'm only looking for select and better, kiln dried, with minimal sap (you know - the good stuff), usually 4/4, only occassionally do I need 8/4.  Wide boards don't do much for me (my jointer is only 8"), but others seem to drool over it.  Some selling features that the local broker doesn't offer, but that I would be interested in would be boards in sequence marked (for bookmatching), boards from the same tree marked (easier to match wood tones), and I would love to have access to slabs with live edges.  If I'm buying kiln dried lumber, I want to see that it is being stored properly (inside with dehumidification) - it may have been kiln dried but I need to feel confident that it is still at 7% (I don't own a moisture meter and most woodworkers don't).

I think the most important thing out of this long-winded reply is to get involved with the local woodworkers, get to know them, and get your name spread around among them.  Woodworkers are notorious for spreading knowledge among themselves and the first question that always comes up when a new woodworker comes to town or when someone starts woodworking is -  where do I get wood.

Hokiemill

Just went to your website and saw that you're a furnituremaker yourself.  Sorry, I probably told you a bunch of stuff you already know.

Rod

I use my lumber for building homes and when I sale the home I am getting retail price for my lumber.

Home buyers are not experts on lumber.,nor are the banks who loan the money to the home buyers.

When you are a small time sawmill people think they can get stuff cheap,so cheap were you can't make a living.

Brian_Bailey

Here are a few things that I've discovered travelling down the lumber trail  :D.

1) Selling your lumber to professional cabinet/ furniture makers is a tough sell.  They can't afford the risk of buying lumber from an unknown source.

2) Location, Location, Location

3) You should identify your market first, then produce the product to supply it.

4) Follow my own advice  :D !

This is an excellent thread and I feel that the scenario that Kelvin and Hokiemill described is what most of us small timers are up against.
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

Kedwards

definite business plan, market niche, and a marketing plan. Marketing to me has been 1/2 of the work with sawing, drying and processing the other. You have to get your name out there. I joined a woodworkers club, work with woodworking stores for consignment, EBAY, word of mouth etc etc..It takes time and lots of commitment.
His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like socks in a dryer without cling free

Captain

I find with a yellow page listing under "sawmills" that most of my first time calls come from folks who can't get their product anywhere else.  These custom sawn orders draw them in, and they return again and again as needs arise after seeing the inventory on hand.

How much am I selling for?? Hard to answer as my inventory fluctuates too often.  I have normal stock of very little hardwood at any given time....usually less than 2000BF, and varied species.  Usually it gets priced at time of sale based on quality, quantity, and the customer.  Keeps it personal.

CAPTAIN

Ron Wenrich

Yours is a classic problem amoung many mill owners.  I don't have a small mill, but work on a larger circle mill.  We saw for grade and production.  We get rid of the log into blocking when the grade starts to give out.

The blocking - pallet cants and railroad ties - are sold for a good price.  We don't like to fool around with low grade.  Sawing into pallet boards is a losing proposition, especially on a band mill.  If you want to do that, you should have a resaw.  I can get nearly that price without cutting them into boards.

We also don't fool around too much with our grade.  We get it to a wholesaler ASAP.  That provides a continuous cash flow - something you are lacking.  

You may want to consider selling your non-specialty woods to a wholesaler.   Although it may not be top dollar, you have a lot lower expenses and improved cash flow.  You won't be losing any money due to degrade, shrinkage or holding costs.

Your high end stock could then be taken another step, like kiln drying, planing or making molding.  But, markets for high end material is limited.  You may have market saturation or the market may not know about you.  You have to figure that one out.

The laws of supply and demand - the lower the price, the higher the demand.  The auction hits the equilibrium price where the price satisfies the demand.  Doing it without an auction is a little trickier.  If you can double your sales by reducing price a little, then its worthwhile.  Again, it goes back to cash flow.

Looking at retail outlets doesn't do you much good.  I don't know how much business they really do.  I went to one local shop, and they had some really memorable wood.  I went back a year later, and it was still there.  It could be that the stuff I remembered was such junk that nobody wanted it, or that they have a low volume of business.  I suspect some of each.  The shop made most of its money in hardwood flooring.

The chains don't depend on hardwood for very much of their revenue.  They can afford to sit on lumber a lot longer than you, so they can put on that high price tag.  I doubt if serious woodworkers go there.

Woodworking clubs can buy in bulk, if they pool their bucks.  They can get wholesale prices, if they shop around.  We have several that will deliver in 1 Mbf lots, and they can pickup for a lesser amount.  Guaranteed they beat the box stores and probably you.

Buying logs from a mill might not be the best option.  I'd only sell you a log if I can't make more sawing it.  So, you are already paying a premium for your resource.  That has to be passed on.

What you need is a niche market.  I helped put on guy in the mill business and he went and started to make moulding, flooring, custom doors and windows.  He saws about 30 Mbf a month on a circle mill, kiln dries, and does a little logging.  They are swamped with orders, even though their attitude turns off a lot of people.  Their location is not that great, but their product and pricing is.

Maybe you want to investigate going another step.  Custom doors, for example, have a wider market than a quartersawn white oak board.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

twoodward15

here's a reply from a woodworker.  I don't have a mill, I just love this site.  It helps me keep up with what I am trying to buy.
     Your basic weekend woodworker wants to buy wood on Saturdays!  I don't want green wood.  It needs to be air dried and ready to work soon.  Most of us don't have the time or money to buy 3 or 4 hundred bd ft of green wood.  We need 20 to 50 bd ft lots from the same tree.  It all has to match.  I need to be able to get in and get out during my lunch hour if I buy during the week.  Personally, I don't like to pay a lot for my wood.  I don't want to spend more than 2 dollars a bd ft for ANYTHING!!  And I also don't have a problem getting what I need and want at that price, to include cherry, walnut and maple!!!!  You wanna see us flock to you?  Next time you get someone there buying lumber, through in a real nice board for free  (a big one, it'll cost now, but he'll keep coming back).  I hate paying for knots when I'm supposed to be getting top quality lumber, I also don't want to pay for bark and I only pay to the most narrow point in the width of the wood.  if it's 6 inches at one end and 10 at the other, I pay on 6!  Do us a favor and DON"T I repeat DON'T surface all the lumber.  I only want rough lumber as do a lot of the people I know.  And we want a full inch thick on 4/4 wood.  I know we are demanding, but If you could market your wood around here at that price, I'd be spendig my wood money there!!!
108 ARW   NKAWTG...N      Jersey Thunder

beenthere

twoodward15
You have written a 'classic' list of demands for the 'want-to-sell' lumberman to ponder.  8)

Seems to me, paying a visit to the sawmill to place your order in advance would help you get dry lumber, with no knots, no wane, 50 bdft from the same tree, under $2/bdft (also, throw in that big, clear board at no charge), and picked up over the noon hour or Sat. morning  would be on your list of things to do.

I apologize if I am sounding sarcastic, but I can't imagine expecting someone to have lumber for sale, where I (as a buyer) could expect or demand such treatment.

But it sounds like you are all set, as you state ""And I also don't have a problem getting what I need and want at that price, to include cherry, walnut and maple!!!! ""

Is this for real? ::)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Brian_Bailey

twoodward15,  

I find your post interesting and pretty much on target with the feelings of most of my weekend woodworking customers.

I wish I could sell FAS & Btr. lumber for 2 bucks a bf.
For me to get that kind of lumber for you, I have to pay a dollar + a bf for the log. Doesn't leave much for my efforts.

Heck, I just paid $1.70 /bf  for a red oak log. The lumber that came out of that log would make a serious wood enthusiast drool. It was a veneer log full of curl. You just might get my interest @ $10 / bf but I doubt it  :D.

Sawyers can be demanding too and also need to eat.   ;D :D :) ;)



WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

Hokiemill

twood,

Let me preface this by saying I am not intentionally trying to be an butt.  With that said - I assume you aren't buying much wood from someone in business.  $2/bf for cherry and walnut just won't happen unless it's coming from a farmer who has this stash in his barn......etc.  Both are going for better than $4/bf for 4/4 around here (central VA).  As far as knots, wane, and other defects go, that $4/bf is for FAS and FAS can include some of the above.  If I want a board with no defects at all, then I better be ready to pay the price.  By the way sap isn't considered a defect so my $4/bf cherry board may be part white.

I understand completely your desire to get the most for the least - I'm a woodworker too and I'm constantly on the search for low cost wood and yes, I would give all my business to the guy who can sell per your requests.  But, I also have a mill and hope to sell wood one day and I realize logs can cost money, equipment costs money, my labor costs money, and drying wood costs money, so I'm going to have to charge a fair price if I want to make a buck.

If you find some kiln-dried $2/bf FAS cherry or walnut let me know, I'll take a 1000 bf and sell it for a profit.

Capitalism and fair market values - ain't it grand.

Buzz-sawyer

twoodward15

In regard to  expectations placed on a lumber seller.......why not free.......and delivered as well????
What I am saying is, you are unrealistic as to what you expect, from someone trying to make a living............now SOME men do sell lumber as a side line to thier hobby of cutting lumber, they may not pay for logs, and may cut thier own therefore selling at less than cost of log.....If so you go for it.....you''ll both be happy.....there are not a lot of these fellows doin mass production though....and dont expect all to meet those prices let alone your numerous requirements of service....
best wishes
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

MemphisLogger

twoodward15,

If you came to my place with that attitude, I'd have Ol' Blue put you up a tree!  ;D

Now, if'n ya came by and bought a "log run" (read matched set) o' Cherry, Walnut or QS Oak and paid MY (furniture maker) time for retrieving, sawing, and stacking FURNITURE grade lumber --$3-4/bdft AD. THEN, I might kick in a couple of nice sticks.  :)

Of course, you'd have to come by at MY convenience and bring some barleypop with ya.  ;)

If you couldn't meet those demands, I'd just have to sell my wood to someone else who APPRECIATED my work.  8)

Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

ronwood

twoodward15,

I am both a woodworker and sawyer so I see it from both side. I just don't see how you can demand that kind of service and quality of wood for $2.00 bd. ft. especially for cherry. I recently cut some curly cherry for my friend here in St. Louis that he had no problem selling for $9.00 Bd. ft. kiln dried and surfaced.

More power to you if you can buy the high quality lumber out there for that price. My friend does it full time and at times it is a struggle to make a living even when you can sell a few board for a very good price.

Ron
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

oakiemac

twoodward15,

I liked the reply from Urbanlogger and I ditto it.
Everyone wants the most for their money, but it sounds like you want to rape the poor sawmill operator.
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

twoodward15

ahhhh, I guess I should have been a bit more specific, sorry I was at work and in a hurry when I wrote that.  Where I live and in the places I buy lumber, the sawmill owners aren't paying for logs.  One of the places that I frequent still has wood that his father cut 30 plus years ago.  At another place, The man builds boats and runs a mill.  He sells at $1 per bd ft off the stack.  I never said that I didn't want knots or bark, I just said that I don't pay for them (if they are significant I should have added),  an example is that I bought an 8/4 piece of gum 12 inches wide.  The outside 2 inches was bark  (12 inches on the big side 10 inches on the small)  I won't pay for a 2 by 12 when it's a 2 by 10.  Yes I'm sure that I sound like your typical weekend woodwroker, but I'll add that, number one,   I was trying to get this mans lumber moving so that he could pay the bills and number two, if your wood has been sitting around for 30 years it is obviously not moving and therefore taking up VALUABLE space and could make you money at any price at that point.  Yes I do get cherry up to 16/4 for a dollar a bd ft WHEN I have to pay for it.  I mostly get it free, but that is another story.  Maple is the same as with any other northeastern wood.  There is a business that sells birds eye maple within 10 miles of my house all day long for about $3 a bdft.  Those are higher than your normal red oak prices!!!!!!!!  you can get the best most figured BEM for 4 bucks a bd ft!!!   www.exoticwoods.com    bulk lumber section.  Let's look at it another way.  Say I hire you to come to my house and cut my wood in to lumber.  You'de get about 30 cents a bd ft around here and thats stretching it.  I can find a few guys still charging a quarter.  You can sell your oak for 4 dollars a bd ft.  I understand the whole buying logs thing, but where did the $3.70 more come from.  I am not trying to cut anyone down or try to get wood cheaper or insult anyone.  I hope to be one of you guys soon.  But If I buy a log for say $1.75 a bd ft and have you cut it a 30 cents, then we are still at $2.05  so we have $1.95 to come up with somewhere????  Storage to dry it???  Sorry you guys only sell the green stuff, remember???  Let's say its profit, but what about profit on that 30 cents you are charging me?  It's already added in.  I'm sure noone will see it my way, but I can get lumber at my local lumber yard that is kiln dried for less than you guys are charging.  What happened to cutting out the middleman and saving a buck???  For the most part we (as woodworkers ) don't want FAS, we just want to either pay the lower grade prices or not pay for the huge knots and bark.  Again red oak in this area at 4 and 5 bucks a foot better be clear and thick at that price or you won't move it.
       Back to the original question, If you can't sell wood at these prices what would YOU do.  If I had a family to feed then I'd lower my prices so I could buy food and try to get another job.
     Your weekend woodworkers are looking for a deal, not on the whole lot, but maybe a couple nice boards.  I don't think this guy shopuld be throwing wood in for free all the time, just until he gets a name for himself and starts moving product!  
    I don't know what you men sell, but I'd be willing to bet that the weekend woodworkers aren't buying up all your 20 inch wide boards or all your 20 footers either,  I'll bet they are buying you 4 to 8 inch wide boards that are 8 foot or less, down to the 3 foot range.  Are they worth 4 dollars a bd ft???  a 4 inch wide 3 foot long board????  I wouldn't give you 4 bucks for it, but I'd gladly give you a buck for it before you through it in the burn pile!!!!
    Just remember that everything on your lot isn't gold.  I know it is your bread and butter, but when it won't move what is a man to do.  I'm sure that if you aren't having a problem moving your wood then this doesn't really pertain to you, but someday it will or already has, and I'm sure you ALL have sold at $1 a bd ft at some point or even less trying to keep that mill running making pallet wood at 37 cents a foot.  Now, who is worth more , me and my 1 to 2 dollars or them at 37 cents if we are buying equal amounts???
    And the last point on my rant.  I frequent a website called www.woodnet.net.  Occasionally I see people all getting together and meeting up at a sawmill on a Saturday.  Normally about 20 to 30 people go and usually buy up anywhere from 50 to 500 bd ft at a time.  I think the last time they bought in excess of 7500 bd ft.  Take a step over there and introduce your selves to the crowd and post where your mills are located.  I'll bet it brings someone some business, and they'll tell someone and so on.  You wouldn't believe how hard it is to find you guys.  I've lived in my house for 3 years now and am still finding sawmills!!!!  List yourselves in the yellow pages and get into the woodworking forum, even if you just post where your mill is once a month or invite people out to see you.  More wood would be sold and I think the prices would come down.  I'm not trying to rape the operator, I pay his stated price, I don't like to haggle on things like that.  If he'll sell it at that price I'll buy it as would most of you I'm sure!!!
    I didn't think I came in with any attitude Urban Logger,  I respect what you do, I just pay their asking price.  I can buy green red oak all day long here for 75 cents a bd ft, their logs and sawn to my specs, and I don't have to work the dumb end of the mill!!!!  they'll load it on my truck or trailer if it's parked there for them!
    As I keep rereading your posts you all make me out to be the one with the attitude problem and treating the mill operator poorly.  I'm one of the friendliest guys you've ever met.  I'll pay whatever he asks for when I go there, I have just never been asked to pay more than 2 a bd ft.  I'm happy and he's very happy!  i'd buy from any of you and am sure I will someday On one of my many trips back and forth across the states and world.  I'm in the military and try to look for different lumber when I travel so I can get better prices than I can get here!!!  Some day I'll hopefully be buying lumber at Bob Smalsers place if he'll have me.  I'm dying to see some of that wood.  I'll pay what he asks!!  I've even asked people on other forums if they need any wood that i can get cheap here, if I'm flying out west or overseas.  
108 ARW   NKAWTG...N      Jersey Thunder

twoodward15

when you get wood cheap, you sell wood cheap!!
  Anybody care to list their prices for air dried oak in your different grades or log run????  How many northeasterners are over $2 a bd ft for 4/4 wood????  Funny I'll bet not many are!!  
     I guess I just find deals, and I'll ask my mill owner if he has any good deals.  If it's good, then I buy!!!!
108 ARW   NKAWTG...N      Jersey Thunder

FeltzE

Interesting thread... ;) I belive that wholesale pricing for #1 Common cherry starts at around 2.20/ ft KD and for #1 Common oak around 1.08/ft. Those prices I've found with only two clicks of the mouse on the net... I think that if anyone is interested they can purchase a one time subscription of one of the lumber buying pricing guides such as Random Lengths and get the current industry pricing for their region.

That being said ... price what your market will bear... :-*

I often sell "mill run" my version of what ever the log bears at .75 / ft for oak straight off the mill  and into a waiting pick up to 1.75 for 4/4 rough cut kiln dried . Cherry starting at 1.50 green off the mill up to 2.50 RC KD.

It was mentioned earlier where is the difference in the cost of sawmilling vs selling the lumber. Well it isn't simple math of log + sawmill rate = product price. There is a lot more to it than that. When I go out on a on site job the owner provides some labor. They stack the lumber, I leave the slab, sawdust edgings and drive off with my profit. In the yard I need to stock logs (invested time and money) handle the logs to the mill. Sawmill the product, sort the lumber sticker and dry the lumber, wherehouse the lumber to keep the value up. Maintain the work site, handle all the waste stream of sawdust, edgings, slab and other culls.  Each step requiring additional labor, attention, and investments.

In my area a hardwood mill I occasionally had buisness relations with went out of business last year. The regional furniture market that they supported over the years has dried up. That being said. They set the local price for grade hardwoods here at around 325/mbf doyle for oak poplar and a little cheaper for gum if I remember right. On occasion I have needed some and they were happy to sell me some at a small margin of profit. I am really supprised that anyone is paying over $1/ft in the log! But then again that can be a regional market issue. I have been approached by some local tree services with an offer to sell me some walnut or cherry ALWAYS at exorbinant prices and they always leave with their timber in hand. There are some interesting urban legends on the value of veneer grade trees... and everything over 12 inches is veneer grade even with the screws and nails from 20 yrs of hanging baskets and bird feeders in them... NOT.

I used to saw oak and tally my fortune at the end of a day... now I saw and tally how much the elves cost...

Eric

Wes

Twoodward15,  After spending .30 bf or more to buy the logs or a fiew hrs. to [get them for free]. My time here in NJ is worth $ 50. hr. then mill them for .40 bf to grade saw, handle and stack the lumber at $50. hr. then meet the customer on sat for a special request,min. 1 hr. @ $50. hr to dig through the pile and nit pic .for a $100. sale really isnt worth it. when on that same saturday I can mill and sell 1000- 1500 bf  of fencing or decking  green for $ 1.- $ 1.10 bf .
 If you have special requests you have to pay for the service, and that is anywhere you go not just the sawmillers who get the logs for free.

DansSawmill

hmmmm i'll put my bit in,
 i have sawn for the last 5 years for hobby, before that for 10 for a living, ties run .45 or so in my area, so i sell boards for .45 to $1
GREEN
if i have to store the lumber to dry it, price goes up. if i have to buy the logs ( i usually get the wood for cutting fee 50/50 , or free )  i have a element of risk involved, the price goes up.... anyways you get the idea.... i live in a rurral area, and have several thousand bdft of oak air dryed  under sheds right now, dont advetize, but if pepole ask me, i'll sell... so i'm the kind of guy woodwards talking about... however , i'm also in the process of getting a dh kiln and woodmaster  setup so i can do a lil more work on my wood and get a healthy profit..... at which point the cheaper wood will go away...
 8)
so anyways, what i'm tring to say is i can see both sides, and the points of both....
as a custom sawyer ( orders backed up a month behind), when i had a offer to work for TVA, i went with it for the retirement....46 looking down the road. didnt want to  have to wrestle logs when i was 70
so live and let live
dan
Dan's Sawmill
Custom Sawing since 94
CNC woodworking too
now with a 98' lt40 super

Brian_Bailey

Just to somewhat clarify my operation.

1)  Very few of my sales are in green lumber.

2)  I don't buy logs from any tree services. My grade logs come from a professional logger who deals in the global market.

I buy the real stuff not legends and it don't come cheap unfortunately.  ;)
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

twoodward15

Brian Bailey,  I see you live in Attica center.  If you get your map out and look east, over by the lake, you'll see a small town called Forestville.  This is where 90 percent of my $1 a bd ft wood comes from!!!  I can't believe someone in that area (where you live) would get that kind of money for a log!!  I am very surprised the local economy can support that.  I guess times have changed.  I dropped a couple loads of logs somewhere near there about 20 years ago with my uncle.
 

Soooo, nobody charges more than $2 a bd ft for red oak in the northeast for the most part!!!  

Wes,  I agree with you to a point, but if you'll look aat your figures, your sawing 6 days a week and making over 1500 a day.  That is 495,000 dollars a year with a 2 week vacation.  That is of course figuring that you do this full time and are sawing monday through saturday  (you'd rather get the fence money than a woodworkers on a saturday, so I assumed you do that all week as well, especially for that money, I'd do it too).  So you won't have to do this very long to retire!  lol  just kidding of course.  I understand your point, but not all the local mills are like yours.  I was at one on Sunday way down south in Dorchester.  27 cents my logs, 60 cents a bdft his logs green.  I'd have given him a buck for the green, but he said his standard price!!!  He moves wood like you would not believe I hear.


Please guys, I am not being sarcastic, I just pay regular price, but I'm waiting for everyone to tell me what they pay for oak.  Now, where's Jeff,  after getting in to this one (on my own)  I think I need some kind of members priviledge or something like that.  hahaha  lol
108 ARW   NKAWTG...N      Jersey Thunder

sawmillsi

Hi guys,

Although I'm in Australia we have very similar issues.

As Australian agents for Peterson Sawmills I get to talk to a lot of mill owners about the timber they cut and the prices they get.

We are timber merchants ourselfs (www.mullumbimbywoodworks.com.au) and buy timber from around Australia. We beleive in a fair go and always pay fair prices. About the average we pay for slabs (bark to bark flitches) is around $1000 per m3 (about $2.22bft), paying more for special peices. NB. We usually only buy slabs so we can resaw them into what we want, and they are nearly always green.

About the cheapest we sell for is around the $2000/m3 (about $4.44bft), with more for kiln dried, dressed and of course more for speciall pieces.

We have a reputation for not being the most expensive, but not the cheapest (by a long shot). We also don't mind a good haggle over a price, but will draw the line at an unreasonable offer.

We would rather burn it than give it away too cheap!

We don't market our product toward the general building market (not enough money in it - about $750/m3) and shy away from the big cabinet/joinery side of things - they want too much timber at too cheap a price. We go for the craft market and small cabinet shop - mostly one offs (with lots of repeat).

We use a solar kiln (www.rosegum.com.au) - the 20' container one and kiln dry nearly all of our stock. On average it takes us (between cutting and selling) about 2 years to move the stuff.

We have an unwritten policy, if your not happy with the timber, we'll replace it and you can keep the stuff your not happy with.

We do throw in a free bit here and there - especially with bigger orders or school kids. We also give a 30% discount to retailers and clubs to encourage repeat business and have about 12 shops around Australia who buy about 1350bft annually each. Not much but it adds up.

We go to feild days, exhibitions and trade shows and sell direct to the customer (at retail prices) - in fact most of our income comes from this.

I'll post some pics of a display later.

twoodward15, don't take offence at this but we probably would give you the name of another timber merchant as we wouldn't want the stress of dealing with you.

We have been in business for going on 27 years and we have both happy and unhappy customers Australia and New Zealand wide (more happy of course), we do very little advertising.

We currently employ 3 people fulltime and a casual fella as well.

Good luck guys, people think that being in business for yourself must mean that your rich or something and that your fair game - thats bull s#%$!

Simon

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