Current Forum Poll

[CHARLIE]

That current forum poll on stem cell research is hard to answer without comments. There is more at issue than just a Yes or No.  I would answer yes but with qualifications.  

[Rocky_J]

It is an illogical and incomplete question which cannot be answered as asked by anyone who knows anything about the topic.

The drug companies and researchers are free to perform stem cell research to their heart's content. The sticking point is who will pay for it. All the campaigning about stem cell research is an attempt to get Federal dollars (read: tax dollars) to pay for it. Private industry can perform whatever research they want on their own nickel. If there is a good chance it will be profitable, private industry will do the research. But I do not believe Federal dollars should pay for private research that would otherwise be unprofitable and unproductive.

Stem cell research is NOT illegal (as some types would have you believe). It is simply not eligible for Federal funding.

[Tom]

I've understood that part of the problem with stem cell research is the "moral" argument over harvesting the stem cells.  Also the insinuation that organ cells grown from them have some viable rights as a "being".

Even the private companies have problems with research when there are people using "moral" arguments to get them to quit.  This world has people in it who are against anything.  I heard, on TV, a self-righteous person say that "the researchers will perform abortions to get stem cells from the fetus'. "   How does the world go ahead when there are people spouting doomsday rhetoric like that?

[ARKANSAWYER]

   Some time back I was at the Hospital to "do lunch" with my wife because I was sawing in the area.  While waiting for her I was reading some mags there that I often do not read.  In it was a story on the price of drugs and why federal dollars are needed to keep the cost down.  When the drug company has to spend it's coin it has to pass the cost on to the consumer.  But they were saying when Federal dollars were used the cost of the drugs would be kept down since the company was not out any thing and every one benifited.  Sounded really good since my GrandMa's spend about $1 grand amonth together on drugs.  Then the story went on to track one pill and how it was developed.  It seems that this pill did not work as it was for a heart drug but they found that it did something else very well.   It cost them about $150 million to come up with this pill and now they needed to sell it.   So an ad campain started and the company spent like $257 million to let evey body know about this little blue pill that can change your world.  Now there are several more like it and they all spend millions to let us know that they are out there.   Drug companys spend millions on Doctors to get then to write the paper so we can buy the pill.  Now here the deal.  If the pill cost $20 each it would take about $0.50 to manufacture and the company would be out about$1.25 to get it on the shelf ready for sale and that includes development cost.  The other $18.75 would be for Ads and profit so they can make more pills for us to take.
  Now since I do not need the pill the ads are wasted on me just as are the millions spent to have Nike shoes on the feet of some basketball star.  After all I wear steel toe boots 90% of the time.   But should the day come when I need the blue pill I may think the $20 is not that bad.  But how come GrandMa lived 75 years of her life with out hardly an asprin and now the Doc has convinced her she needs these pills in order to live?  Coin,  it all comes down to coin.  Why spend your money to develop this or that when Uncle Sam will open the purse and then you can still make the profit or more and risk nothing.
  As far back as written word we know that people have been slected breeding of animals and plants.  Most of us know a prise bull when we see one or a pretty girl.  As we have improved the way in which we can care and doctor people more and more live to reproduce and it is no longer the strongest who live.  Do not get me wrong as I think all life is special and the work of God.  Just the facts.  The more I studied in college the more I learned and the more I became convinced that my fore fathers did not crawl out of some mud puddle.  Life is special and has changed with the enviroment around it.  
  Now that we can mess with the building blocks of the structure of a being or plant we can really mess up.  Caution should be taken with great care here.  Some of this bio corn may produce a strain that we can not digest nor our live stock and insects have no use for it and can not kill it.  This Kudzu Corn will overtake us and be our doom.  This could be the end of grits. :(  Maybe federal money and regulations would guard aginst this.  Maybe not.   I know if I needed a kidney and they could grow a new one that would be really super.  Not that long ago we were debating weither or not we should take part of a dead person and put it into a live one.  Some times it worked and some times not.  Mostly it works now.  Do I have the correct answer? NO, but as we evolve as people we will keep messing with stuff.  Now what they should be spending lots of money on is a DNA upgrade for oaks that grow square tall limbless trunks that add a growth ring every month and add 6 inches per year dib.  Now that would be stem cell research!
ARKANSAWYER

[CHARLIE]

What grinds me is that the pill companies claim they have to charge so much to pay for the research and development. When the truth is, Universities usually do the research and development with government grants.  What drives up the cost?  I think it is all the multiple full page advertisements and TV advertising.  I wish the federal government would pass a law not allowing the advertisement of prescription drugs except in medical journals or directly to the doctors. They are the ones that prescribe them.

[Stan]

What I know about the price of drugs, keeps my teeth short. The countries with socialized medicine, have a maximum they will pay for drugs. Guess who makes up the shortfall? You guessed it, the American consumer.  >:(

[Patty]

 "But how come GrandMa lived 75 years of her life with out hardly an asprin and now the Doc has convinced her she needs these pills in order to live?  Coin,  it all comes down to coin."

You hit the nail on the head there Arkansawyer. So many of the pills folks take are so unnecessary. Our society seems to think pills are magic and will make everything all better, and the doctors and drug companies are campaigning to make sure we continue in this downward spiral. Haytrader got the opportunity to witness recently just how many pills we shovel into old folks in the nursing homes, it is a crime. But nobody seems to mind because someone else is paying for it. So much of this would come to a screeching halt if the cost of all those drugs was coming directly out of pocket...not medicare, medicaid, or health insurance.

As far as the stem cell research....well I absolutely am vehemently against the government becoming more involved in the research. Anytime you resort to using the bodies of murdered babies for profit, you have a very morally corrupt society. I spoke to a friend about this. He has a spinal cord injury that has left him completely paralyzed, and if anyone could hope to benefit from this research it would be him. However he felt so strongly that this research was so wrong that he said he would rather remain paralyzed forever, than to think he somehow benefited from the death of an innocent baby.

[CHARLIE]

I don't know much about Stem Cell research or how they obtain stem cells.  I did read once that stem cells could be retrieved from umbilical cords. That is why I started this thread saying that I would say yes only with comments and reservations.  I would only vote yes if the stem cells were retrieved from the umbilical cords from healthy birth of babies and with the permission of the parent(s).

[Ron Wenrich]

Britain has OKed stem cell research, but the stem cells are coming from frozen embryos.  They only hold frozen embryos for 5 years.  At that time, they are disposed.  They figure it is just as good to give them to research.

I don't think the Brits have OKed cloning for stem cell research.  Could be wrong.

[DonE911]

Although this is not my opinion, I was sitting with a group of educated people ( Not to say I am not educated, just not in this area ) who were discussing stem cell research.  

The general feeling was that no Federal Funding should be involved as compensation to private or public (Universities ect) researchers.  

The fear was that one day soon if research is funded by government,that stem cell research will produce a cure for something that can not be cured or treated any other way.  Once a proven cure has been discovered through stem cell research there will be an huge demand.  Initially only the Super rich will be able to afford it, and the masses will eventually demand the cure at an affordable price.  Where will all the stem cells come from?  

Will there be a stem cell factory right next to the Nike factory in some third world country that is more interested in the $$ than the people who will be exploited?      

I know this sounds stupid and the "morality" is certainly in question....

Seems to me, that the legality of research is not as big an issue as to what comes "after" research.

Someone will tinker with stem cells regardless.... because humans tinker with stuff  until we find something useful... I think they new word for this is technology.

[old3dogg]

I just dont think that"we" have the right to play GOD.
If the big guy says its time to go than it is time to go.
Just my thought.

[Rocky_J]

old3dog,
I'm not trying to insult, but just pointing out a major inconsistency. Have you EVER taken any antibiotics to fight an infection? Have you taken meds for high blood pressure, or any other type of illness in your entire life? I'm assuming you have, since there might be only a couple hundred adults in the US that have never taken any medication or vaccination in their life. Well, unless you are one of those unfortuinate few, you have already crossed your self-imposed line of 'playing God'.

I believe that God gave us the ability to reason and think for the purpose of self-preservation. Man will continue to research and 'tinker' for as long as we exist. To stop and NOT do any research would be an insult to our Creator who endowed us with these gifts of reason and thinking.

But still, I do not believe tax dollars should be used for this purpose. Stem cell research is just as legal as any other type of research for whoever wishes to pay for it.

[old3dogg]

Rocky.
Dude!You cant insult me!Trust me.I will argue over anything.
The more I read about stem cell research the more it sounds to me like cloning.And cloning I feel,is wrong.
I am very thankful for medical research.If not for meds I wouldnt be here.
I just dont feel that mortel people should have the right to make people immortel.That Gods job.

[Rocky_J]

So, it was OK for researchers to use human and animal cells in order to develop the meds that you have taken in the past, but it is not ok for them to keep reaching into new areas of development for other new cures? At what point does it cross the line from 'research' to 'cloning'? And who said we were at that line now?

Again, no antagonism intended. Just trying to flesh out your argument so I understand.  

[old3dogg]

Nah.I thinks its great that we get to defy our own moraitly these days.

[ARKANSAWYER]

   Lets say that some body figures out how to get stem cells from an umbilical cord of a healthy baby which are just going to be desposed of.  He or she comes up with a way to grow good organs or repair spinal cord injuries.  They take a stem cell and some of your DNA and "Poof" your liver is ready to go.  That would be a good deal.   We do not need to abort a baby to get what we need to do this.  Millions of umbilical cords are desposed of every day.  There are babies born dead, for what ever reason, every day.   All life is special and I would not wish that any one child be harmed for this.  But there is an oppertunity for great things to come of this if done with the right morles.
    One time I was electricuted and died.   No heart beat, No sign of life.  Just a limp, smoking body laying on the ground.  Had GOD required my soul at that time nothing any man could have done would have put breath back into my body.  This was over 20 years ago.   Who has the right to play GOD at any thing.  NO ONE!  But due to the abilities GOD has given men I am alive today.  My childern are healther and I can remember when few had open heart surgery.  Now I know atleast 20 who have and 3 of them in my family.  Where did this gift come from?  Do you think that if GOD did not want us to be able to do this that he could not stop us?  We are messing up the rest of the Earth why not our selves as well?  Each time we come to a new cross roads like this we stop and ponder the weight of what we are doing.  Some say NO and others just plow ahead.  In time we sort it all out.
   As for what GOD has to say on the matter I know of nothing.   I know who and how to worship, how to talk, when to work, who to honor, faithfullness, No murdering,lying, stealing, gossiping, or coveting my neighbors ass.  I know GODs Son was a good hand at healing and seemed to take great pleasure in it.  I know I should take good care of my body and cause it no harm.  Many things are told but it does not tell about such things as if I should pay $20 for the blue pill or not.  Maybe I missed it.
  Still I would like to see red oaks with square stems.
ARKANSAWYER

[Bruce_A]

Arkansawyer;  Did that littlle bit of juice change your attitude for a while?  I got a little jolt of 220 about twentyfive years ago and it totally changed my perspective for some time.

[etat]

The day they perfect that cloning I'm a going to do my best to be the first in line.  Two of me exactly alike means I'd only have to work half as hard, and would have twice as much time to philosophize.  And just think how much better off the world would be to have more than one of me, exactly alike. ;D  

[Bruce_A]

CK;  I took a look at my children, and deciced I didn't want to have anything to do with cloning.

[ARKANSAWYER]

Bruce,
   I have no fear of death just growing old...  It is hard to put your finger on it put many things are different.  Since that time I can not wear metal or keep a watch on me that will work for very long. ???
  
  I would be all for about 3 clones of me.  Man what a deal.  You think some sawing goes on this farm now!  WoodMizer  would like it as well as I would be wearing out some mills.
ARKANSAWYER

[Bruce_A]

Now if I cant get away from cloning,  I think I'd have to have my wife cloned.  Fantastic gal and more than one might be ok.

[Furby]

Hmmmm, so it'll mess up your watch huh?
I've never been zapped really bad, but I do like to "play" with a little juice. Ever since I was little, I loved 9v batteries, and I used to touch the electric fences just for fun.   ;D At work we had a HiPot tester and I would take a jolt or two once in a while, just for fun.
The thing is I've always had trouble wearing a watch. The metal ones were really bad. One day it would be fast, the next slow, then it might be ok for a day or two.  :D
Are street lights the same way?

[Rocky_J]

I got zapped about 8 years ago. Not real bad, but I felt it for a day or two. Trimming a tree that had been previously cleared for the power lines, and the sprouts had grown back thick and were about 6' long. I was cutting many of the sprouts out of my way to get up the lead and one caught on my leg and laid across the primary. I finished the job but when I got to the ground I was unable to stand.

Since then I've never gotten a watch to work correctly more than a month or two. Been through a few Timex's and a couple Christmas present watches. I have one now that I only wear for special occassions. Had it since Christmas and it still works, worn it 3-4 times.

How did this thread get so far off topic and nobody has mentioned FOOD yet?  8)

[etat]

The end of my tree topping career was back in the 70's.  I was cutting a limb waay up in that there tree.  Hope I don't bore ya cause I mentioned this one time before.  I cut that limb, the rope broke, and it fell right across some high voltage lines.  .  A big fire ball starts running up and down them lines until one of em finally burns in two.  It hits the ground and fire is still running up and down it.  About that time the transformer doesn't click off, it blows up!   I shinned down that tree, and didn't say a word, just started for my truck.  Guy I'm working for says hey, get back up there, the lines out of the way now.  The thing is I KNEW I was working too close to them power lines with the equiptment we had and had done told the guy.  I messed around and let him talk me into cuttin that limb anyways.  Partly cause I needed the money.  I'd been working up in trees off and on for two years.  That day, that minute I quit.  Very few trees it is that I've climbed since.

[etat]

Bruce_A, Are you SURE you've considered all the consequences of getting yer wife cloned!!!  I'm a thinking either you're a newlywed, or you're NUTS!!!! 8) 8) 8)

[Furby]

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[old3dogg]

I was eating a ham and cheese sandwich the day I got nailed with 480 volts.
I ran a grounding rod across all 3 legs of a plate breaker when I was cleaning an RF transformer.The breaker was "off" but the main power supply wasnt.It blew me back about 10 feet,knocked me out and blinded me for about 30 minutes.The response from the "guy who should have known better"?
"Gee.Darn good thing you wasnt standing in water!"
Hey Rockey-J.I put in some food for you! ;D

[Bruce_A]

ck;  I am newlywed enough that I took my lady dancing this weekend not once but twice.  And this after working all day.  Hit the hay last night at about 1:30 am and was up at 5:30 headed to my favorite auction.  After 8:00 pm here now and the 10 hours sleep I have had the last three days is starting to catch up with me. By the way, I am 55 years old and been married to my lady for almost 26 years.  Cloning still doesn't sound to bad.

[etat]

 :D :D :D :D :DI hear ya Bruce, I hear ya!!!!  Just havin a little fun. Me, I only been married 22 years and going strong, but I still don't think two would be a good idea, for me at least!!!!  Lord have mercy, I just KNOW they'd gang up on me and I'd NEVER get no peace!!!!!!!!

[Bruce_A]

I guess it would keep a man busy job hunting for a second job for more than one woman, but think of the fun.

[ARKANSAWYER]

   Some of this bio corn may produce a strain that we can not digest nor our live stock and insects have no use for it and can not kill it.  This Kudzu Corn will overtake us and be our doom.  This could be the end of grits. :(  

Grits is food and already in here. ;D