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Cooks Super Sharp

Started by delvis, March 31, 2014, 10:00:43 PM

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delvis

Is anyone using Cook's Super Sharp blades on a Wood Mizer mill?  I have only used WM blades since we bought the mill but I used Super Sharps when we had the Timber Harvester and they seemed to be a pretty good blade and they certainly were sharp.  Wood Mizer's Resharp is great, but there is a guy locally who can sharpen Cook's blades.  He doesn't have the right cam to sharpen WM blades so I stopped using him.

I am still having a bit of an issue with my blades diving in Knotty wood and really diving in Ash.  The new WM Turbo 7 has helped but I don't remember having this problem with the old mill and the Super Sharp blades.
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

Peter Drouin

Quote from: delvis on March 31, 2014, 10:00:43 PM


I am still having a bit of an issue with my blades diving in Knotty wood and really diving in Ash.  The new WM Turbo 7 has helped but I don't remember having this problem with the old mill and the Super Sharp blades.




The mill is out of alignment, It's not the blade, would be my guess. :)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

delvis

I've been over the alignment more times than I can count and even had WM service show up last year to do a servicing.  He checked our alignment while we explained to him the way we checked it and said we were spot on.  I don't have a problem with the blade diving in knot free wood or in any hardwood but ash.  The problem is when we run into knots and when sawing ash.  We're running the 38 horse Kohler and I feel like I have more power than the blade can handle.  I can't imagine how bad it would be with a diesel.   
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

Peter Drouin

Then I don't know, My 51 horse cat will cut anything nice and flat , I use the WM 1/¼ 55/ 7.
Not sure if your 38 will pull the 55s through the log. I sharpen my blades and push out the set to 30 and that helps
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

YellowHammer

i have used Cooks Blades, both the Super Sharps, and the Cooks Xcel blades.  The Xcel blades have what they say is an "industry standard tooth profile."  I have used both types of blades with my LT40 diesel with no problems.  Both are good blades.

The Super Sharps have a much different profile than WM blades but the Xcel blades are very close

If you buy the Excel blades, Cooks can also provide a cam which I have recently been using on my WM blades, as it fairly closely follows the 10° profile.  You can give this to your sharpener guy, and he would be able to sharpen your old WM blades.
YH

 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

36 coupe

When the Ross band mill was selling here there was a problem with new blades not cutting well.Fellow who had a Ross gave me a dull blade to look at.When a blade is sharpened and then set you get a negative rake on the tooth face.I talked with a dealer that said he was resharpening brand new blades before selling them.I was running a Belsaw planer making door and window trim and didnt have the time to go into sharpening band saw blades.I had a Belsaw SharpAll but couldnt figure a way to sharpen band mill blades on it.Not enough head room where I had the Sharp All.A fellow ran some tests on shop band saw blades.He found a new blade took 20 seconds to cut thru a piece of mdf board.After he ground the tops of the teeth it took 6 seconds to cut the same length of mdf.He used a weight to pull the miter gauge.I see no need to grind the gullet and the backs of the saw teeth.I focus on the tooth face and top when sharpening.Since band mill blades break in the gullet I think a coarse grinding wheel leaves grooves that start a crack.I think diving is caused by over feeding and blades with a negative rake on the tooth face.Ive sawed and molded a lot of ash.Ash is usually knot free.I started work on a grinder to sharpen band mill blades but never finished it.The fellow that sharpened just the tooth tops proved that the point of the tooth does all the cutting.

ladylake

Quote from: Peter Drouin on March 31, 2014, 11:28:17 PM
Then I don't know, My 51 horse cat will cut anything nice and flat , I use the WM 1/¼ 55/ 7.
Not sure if your 38 will pull the 55s through the log. I sharpen my blades and push out the set to 30 and that helps

Those 55 blades must be the way to go if they use all of the power of a 51hp Cat and still cut straight in wide white ash.  I'd guess your feed rate is over 60 fpm.    Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

bandmiller2

Delvis, most bandmills will sometimes dodge around hard knots its usally a band that is bordering on dull ,fed too fast, or set ether not enough or uneven. Myself I'am not sold on the idea that exact gullet shape is very important, it just needs to be there. Give your sharpening guy a couple of WM bands and tell him to use the closest cam he has, then try them, I bet you won't notice any difference. Coupes you have some interesting thoughts on gullet cracks I won't disagree but a lot here will. There are a lot of old wives tails that have been bantied around forever and are excepted as the truth. Delvis I have used Cooks and WM and consider them equals. If I didn't look at the band I couldn't tell which I was using. Try different bands some will seem better on your mill. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Peter Drouin

I just did a job all ash


 
cut 3/8 and 3/4 x 4" the blade cut flat, It did dull after I hit frozen mud and rock. That pile I use 4 blades
Don't for get to tighten the blade right up too. I like the WM blades, For me they work well, And besides I dance with the one that brought me to the log. Wood Mizer keeps me working I keep them working, Just the way I am, loyal ;D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

drobertson

I believe I would go ahead a get a box of Cooks, cant' hurt anything, if you have a local sharpener, have had success in the past with them, almost sounds like a no brainer, I use the Cooks, SS,  thinking about switching to the Kasco, or at least giving them a try,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

barbender

I have sawn both black and green ash, black ash is problem free but green ash is a bugger. It has a very low moisture content right off of the stump, and I found it takes a sharp, sharp blade to saw it straight. I was only getting about 200bf on a blade >:( I avoid that stuff if possible ;)
Too many irons in the fire

petefrom bearswamp

I have used WM, Cooks and Suffolk.
All cut good but I stick mainly to WM as I seem to have the best luck sharpening them with my older WM sharpener.
I saw mainly hemlock and set to 28-30 before sharpening.
IMO gullet grind is a must.
WM and Cooks profiles are very different.
Ash is a bugger to saw.
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

5quarter

I don't run a WM, But I've used both WM and Cooks Blades. Currently I'm running the Supersharps. For pine, I push the set out to about .030" like Peter does. no problems running through knots with the SS as long as they're sharp. I did have the same trouble as you with the WM blades even when the set was pushed out...I never did figure out exactly why. I still have a couple Double Hards that I keep sharp for dirty logs as they can take more abuse than the SS blades. Customsawyer Runs both Cooks and WM blades on his LT-70s. I'm speculating, but probably one of the reasons is that he gets increased production from the SS blades in clean wood and increased production from the WM blades in dirty wood.

Nobody will dispute that the tip of the tooth does all the cutting, but cutting is not the only function of the blade. just as important is the efficient removal of sawdust. maintaining the proper gullet depth and profile is crucial to ejecting the maximum amount of sawdust from the cut. Member Tom has written several essays here on this topic...well worth digging them up and reading. The major blade Mfg. also have articles on the integral relationship between the tooth and gullet ...very informative if you're interested in that sort of thing.

38 coupe...by "rake" do you mean the angle of the face of the tooth in relation to material being cut? As I understand it, a tooth with negative rake will not cut wood. Maybe you're using rake to refer to something else?
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

barbender

The 2 most challenging things I have cut were Green ash, and wide cuts in knotty pine. I would have pushed my set out to .030" but I don't have a setter yet ::)
Too many irons in the fire

kensfarm

I've been using Cooks SS 8 degree blades over the winter on some oak...  so far I really like how they cut.. I've pushed them pretty hard.. seem to keep sharp.. even w/ dirty logs.  I was using 10 degree before.   

36 coupe

Quote from: 5quarter on April 01, 2014, 09:29:58 AM
I don't run a WM, But I've used both WM and Cooks Blades. Currently I'm running the Supersharps. For pine, I push the set out to about .030" like Peter does. no problems running through knots with the SS as long as they're sharp. I did have the same trouble as you with the WM blades even when the set was pushed out...I never did figure out exactly why. I still have a couple Double Hards that I keep sharp for dirty logs as they can take more abuse than the SS blades. Customsawyer Runs both Cooks and WM blades on his LT-70s. I'm speculating, but probably one of the reasons is that he gets increased production from the SS blades in clean wood and increased production from the WM blades in dirty wood.

Nobody will dispute that the tip of the tooth does all the cutting, but cutting is not the only function of the blade. just as important is the efficient removal of sawdust. maintaining the proper gullet depth and profile is crucial to ejecting the maximum amount of sawdust from the cut. Member Tom has written several essays here on this topic...well worth digging them up and reading. The major blade Mfg. also have articles on the integral relationship between the tooth and gullet ...very informative if you're interested in that sort of thing.

38 coupe...by "rake" do you mean the angle of the face of the tooth in relation to material being cut? As I understand it, a tooth with negative rake will not cut wood. Maybe you're using rake to refer to something else?I I should have said a negative face angle on the tooth face.This happens if you set the tooth over after sharpening.The gullet is important to carry away sawdust.The tooth will get shorter but you will get away from the hardened tooth zone after several sharpenings.There is no magic saw blade in spite of advertisers  BS.
Quote from: 5quarter on April 01, 2014, 09:29:58 AM
I don't run a WM, But I've used both WM and Cooks Blades. Currently I'm running the Supersharps. For pine, I push the set out to about .030" like Peter does. no problems running through knots with the SS as long as they're sharp. I did have the same trouble as you with the WM blades even when the set was pushed out...I never did figure out exactly why. I still have a couple Double Hards that I keep sharp for dirty logs as they can take more abuse than the SS blades. Customsawyer Runs both Cooks and WM blades on his LT-70s. I'm speculating, but probably one of the reasons is that he gets increased production from the SS blades in clean wood and increased production from the WM blades in dirty wood.

Nobody will dispute that the tip of the tooth does all the cutting, but cutting is not the only function of the blade. just as important is the efficient removal of sawdust. maintaining the proper gullet depth and profile is crucial to ejecting the maximum amount of sawdust from the cut. Member Tom has written several essays here on this topic...well worth digging them up and reading. The major blade Mfg. also have articles on the integral relationship between the tooth and gullet ...very informative if you're interested in that sort of thing.

38 coupe...by "rake" do you mean the angle of the face of the tooth in relation to material being cut? As I understand it, a tooth with negative rake will not cut wood. Maybe you're using rake to refer to something else?

delvis

I am trying to figure out what I am doing wrong if the blade is not the cause.  I listen to the engine and it is hardly working when I see the blade dive or get wavy in knots.  I'm talking even on small logs less than 12" in diameter.  Sometimes when I slow down enough to keep the blade cutting straight I am going so slow I get the washboard pattern that Dave from WM told me was from feeding too slow.  When no knots are present the thing cuts as straight as an arrow and I can feed it pretty quickly especially on the cants that are less than 10" wide.

The mill cuts straight otherwise.  Last fall I did a job for a guy that involved flat sawing two maple logs into pieces for the shaker boxes he makes.  He wanted every piece 1/8" thick.  The standard 7 degree blade didn't like it, but once I put the new Turbo 7 from WM on it sawed every piece consistently and on the money.  I think I may have more of an issue with blade selection and not having a method of setting my own blades than anything else.

With this mill I have only used WM blades from day one and only had WM Resharp service them.  I would like to see more education in the different types of blades as far as pitch and set and feed rates.  This would help customers who are knew to the product. I think I need to have a box of blades set just for knotty wood, one set for half frozen wood, one set for Ash, and one set for general softwood.
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

customsawyer

First let me correct 5quarter as I only run WM blades. I have tried a box of Cooks SS on my mill and they didn't hold up as well. I feel it was due to the dirty logs I was cutting so I went strait back to WM blades. They cut fine till i would hit the dirty part of the log.
I don't want to start a fight on here but your blade has to be flat. Take a blade out of a utility knife and lay it across your blade front to back in a gullet. If you see daylight anywhere under the utility blade then your saw blade isn't flat. If your blade isn't flat you can't cut strait.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Peter Drouin

And is your drive belt tight when it  engages. If it slips when in a cut it will do things . Like not cut straight. :D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

delvis

Before we start up for the summer we will start taking covers off and making sure everything is in alignment and all the belts are tight.  The problem only shows up when I am cutting knotty wood or Ash.  I haven't had a problem with Oak or Maple or anything else.  I can cut wide knot free boards without a problem.  I am getting used to feeding the head a little slower even though it is hard to do when I don't hear the engine working hard.  Our last mill had a 27 HP Kohler on it and I just don't remember having this problem but I may have been sawing a lot slower than I remember as well.  It has been 2.5 years since I sawed on the old Timber Harvester so my memory may be just serving me poorly.  I have been very happy overall with the WM blades and I feel like they last quite awhile with multiple sharpenings.  I wish I had the cash for a WM sharpener and setter arrangement but that will have to wait.  I need to get my edger on wheels first so I can take that on jobs with me.  Edging on the mill is just not the way to go once you have used an edger.
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

barbender

Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 01, 2014, 09:01:03 PM
And is your drive belt tight when it  engages. If it slips when in a cut it will do things . Like not cut straight. :D
X2, if your belt slips your blade will dive. I couldn't hear mine squeal or anything when it would slip so it wasn't obvious what the problem was.
Too many irons in the fire

YellowHammer

I don't cut a lot of ash, but i do saw a lot of nasty, knotty wood like hickory and pecan, which even taxes the WM 4° bands.  However the WM 7°, 055 Turbos (not the 045, which wave) will saw straight through knots as hard and fast as I can push them with my Diesel, at least while they are sharp.

So I suspect that if you are using 055, 7° turbos with a 27 hp engine not really straining and still cutting waves, then there probably is something going on with your mill, however subtle.

Or if you were using the 045 Turbos, buy some 055's and give them the acid test.

YH
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

mikeb1079

i've had a similar problem cutting ash w/my mill....granted mine is a small manual mill but what was happening in my situation is that i wasn't using enough lube and/or detergent and was getting pitch buildup on the tips of my woodmizer 4 degree bands.  i had cut other hardwoods without much trouble but this was my first ash log and caused all sorts of waves....fast, slow, it didn't matter.  i came on here and somebody told me to flood on the lube and it made a world of difference.   8)
that's why you must play di drum...to blow the big guys mind!
homebuilt 16hp mill
99 wm superhydraulic w/42hp kubota

5quarter

Jake...sorry man. my bad. That's what I get for speculating  ;)
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

customsawyer

Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

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