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what to do....???

Started by JamieT, March 25, 2014, 01:30:48 PM

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JamieT

Ok guys, had a guy wanting 200bf of walnut cut. 1x8x10's. Explained to him that it was wet, he didn't mind so I cut the order. 90% of his boards were dark. So i call the fella, tell him the order is cut. He comes out and sees"SAP" wood in a few of the boards and says he cant have that, got in his truck and left. Not only that, he had the audacity to call me about 45 mins later telling me when I had full dark boards to call him.
Now I cant speak for everyone, but to me, walnut is walnut! The dark comes with the light. So i guess my question would be, to those of you selling walnut, do you only sell the dark wood? Im not willing to waste all the light wood!
Learned just about everything I know, from the greatest man ive ever known. My father! Everything else was self taught thru the school of HARD KNOCKS ;-)

ohwc

Contract Contract Contract for custom milling with all specs included. We also learned this the hard way. Then deposit of a min. 50%. Also include if they fail to pick up after 30 days ownership of materials reverts back to you with out a refund. Fortunately this does not happen often. I never used to require this until I had three individuals fail to pick up items done exactly to spec, never bothered to contact me back. I think they ran out of money and we did not have a deposit from these people.

Larry

When I lived in north Missouri 80% of what I sawed was walnut off our farm.  I learned real quick it is impossible to please the retail customer with walnut.  I refused all retail walnut sales except for log run, they take it all.  No exceptions and I was perfectly clear they took (and paid for) the lumber no matter if it was good, bad, sapwood, or whatever.

If you don't handle it this way you get stuck with all the sapwood which is near impossible to move retail.

In realty wholesale is the way to sell walnut.  No quibble over sapwood.  They grade and most of the time I had a check in no more than 30 days.  If you can find a buyer for walnut cants, sometimes that even pays better than retail.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Kcwoodbutcher

I sell a lot of walnut. If the buyer wants all dark wood he can have it but he's going to pay a hefty premium for the privilege. Most of the buyers understand that some sapwood is normal and pay the normal price.
My job is to do everything nobody else felt like doing today

JamieT

Thanks fellas! Like the ideas! What are y'all selling it for? Im ay 2.50$ a bf up to 8 inches wide, or 8ft long. After that its 3.00$ am i close or crazy?
Learned just about everything I know, from the greatest man ive ever known. My father! Everything else was self taught thru the school of HARD KNOCKS ;-)

dgdrls

Quote from: Kcwoodbutcher on March 25, 2014, 03:03:55 PM
I sell a lot of walnut. If the buyer wants all dark wood he can have it but he's going to pay a hefty premium for the privilege. Most of the buyers understand that some sapwood is normal and pay the normal price.

Same for small amount I have moved.  I responded to one Walnut buyer and he indicated "I don't pay for sap wood"
I Indicated I would be happy to remove it for him but the board foot total stays the same as if it was on and I keep the sapwood.
Heck I was offering to saw for free

He didn't find the humor in it. :D

So as others have indicated, be clear, get it on paper and take a deposit before the mill starts-up.

Reminds me,   I am holding a walnut log waiting for a buyer.

DGDrls

Kcwoodbutcher

That's a decent price for green wood, it would be a buck or two higher for dried wood.
My job is to do everything nobody else felt like doing today

Delawhere Jack

Some people like the sapwood left on for contrast, some people don't.  I've found people wanting big slabs usually want the sapwood left on.

It was pretty ignorant of him to storm off though, instead of working something out.

You know, the commercial mills leave the sapwood on, then they steam the boards, and this somehow causes the sapwood to turn dark like the heartwood. Not sure exactly how they do it or why it works.

mikeb1079

presumably this fellow is using these boards to make something.  if he's going to make something he'll need to further process the lumber.  if he's going to further process the lumber and he doesn't want sapwood (which is lame the contrast and colors of air dried walnut are amazing) then he can just edge out the sap.  just trim em to size.  i don't understand why this would be an issue for this guy?

::)

edit:  just reread your post and realized that he doesn't want to pay for the sap.... at first i thought they were his logs.  well i guess that's his right as a customer (to be a lame o).   :D
that's why you must play di drum...to blow the big guys mind!
homebuilt 16hp mill
99 wm superhydraulic w/42hp kubota

YellowHammer

Selling walnut is unique, as people have said, and kind of a pain in the rear.  I used to carefully trim all the sapwood from walnut boards, price accordingly, and have some customers complain that there wasn't enough sapwood because they liked the contrast. At the very same time, I'd get folks complaining that they didn't want sapwood, they wanted full dark.  Everybody wanted a different thing. So now I don't trim sapwood, and put it all on the racks, mixed full dark boards and sapwood boards. If someone wants an 8 inch full dark board, and there's not one on the rack, then they will have to pay for a 10 inch and trim the sapwood themselves.  If they complain, I tell them I set my lumber price by what I pay for logs, and as sapwood is part of the log, well, it has to be paid for too.

More than once I've had situations where a customer at the rack would root around pushing sapwood edged walnut off to the side looking for full dark, only to have another customer walk in, grab the pile of sapwood edged walnut rejected by the first customer who is still there, say its exactly what they were looking for, prettiest wood they've ever seen, pay for it, and leave the first customer standing there with his mouth hanging open wondering what just happened :D. 

If I can manage it, with big walnut logs, I can occasionally get boards that are all sapwood.  I used to throw them out, now I sell them as "white walnut"  ;D and people love to use them for light colored trim boards on otherwise full dark walnut furniture. 

Incidentally, I have the same situation with cherry, some like the contrasting sapwood, some won't buy it. 
YH
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

WDH

I have dealt with the sapwood snobs many times.  For every two sapwood snobs, there is a sapwood lover.  So far, it has balanced out. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

5quarter

I have never encountered a sapwood snob.  :P :P :snowball:
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

JamieT

Luckily these are logs from my property so I didn't have to come outta pocket. But I did put a lot of work into this log. Yesterday I took an 8 inch limb and trimmed it down. I got 5 3/4 thick x4 inches wide solid dark boards. Gonna make a couple picture frames with them. Ill try to remember to post pics. Thanks again for the ideas.
Learned just about everything I know, from the greatest man ive ever known. My father! Everything else was self taught thru the school of HARD KNOCKS ;-)

Magicman

Same thing with ERC.  Some want some sapwood and others want all red.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

JamieT

Never had any issues with the cedar magic man. Just the one time with the walnut. It bothered me until I realized that guy was just an a***#$¥. I have a few new ideas to incorporate thanks to the ff and its members!!
Learned just about everything I know, from the greatest man ive ever known. My father! Everything else was self taught thru the school of HARD KNOCKS ;-)

JohnM

Quote from: JamieT on March 25, 2014, 01:30:48 PM
Not only that, he had the audacity to call me about 45 mins later telling me when I had full dark boards to call him.
I have to assume this will not happen, correct? ??? ;D

This is the one thing I'm not looking forward to, dealing with PITA customers. >:(
Lucas 830 w/ slabber; Kubota L3710; Wallenstein logging winch; Split-fire splitter; Stihl 036; Jonsered 2150

drobertson

sounds like he might be a little picky, and his tone may have been soured as well, but, if it were only 200 bdft, and 90% met his need, I might consider cutting one more log, getting the 20bdft or so to finish it out to his liking, keep the rest back, and move on. You can always decline any further involvement with him in the future,
just my take on the matter,    david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

JamieT

John, no sir. I have no intentions of calling him back. Drobertson I considered that, but the more I thought about it,the more his little tantrum upset me. I woulda had no problem working with the guy, but his lack of decency quickly stopped that thought!
Learned just about everything I know, from the greatest man ive ever known. My father! Everything else was self taught thru the school of HARD KNOCKS ;-)

Larry

I would guess 95% of all walnut is steamed.  Takes a lot of money for the process.  Separate building, super-heated steam, loading, and unloading.  It works best with fresh sawn lumber so in hot dry weather the logger and mill has to keep moving.  The commercial kilns would never do the process if not for the big majority of sapwood snobs.

Walnut has different grading rules than other lumber.  A 5" wide board can make FAS.  If that board is the first out of the log I almost guarantee it will be nearly 100% sapwood.  Steaming or not it won't finish the same as heartwood.  I've seen a lot of sawyers put that first board into the slab if there selling retail.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

drobertson

Larry you are right, the big mill just west of here steams all of theirs, the whole lot of it. Gun stocks and 4/4 and whatever else is ordered. Big time money for sure.  The grading is different than oak flooring for sure as well.
It's amazing how an attitude can turn our way of thinking.  Some folks just don't care about being reasonable, and Jamie I don't blame you one bit, I just thought you were stuck with it, or wanted a turn around in cash.
I had one fellow accuse me of stealing his lumber!  After delivering it,(not in the original plan) he broke his toe,
he was well pleased, then the next day showed up looking for the rest of the logs,  I said stacked in your garage, he said "so that's how it is?"  I said that's exactly how it is, (heart beating a lil) never had this before, in his rig, and gone, oh well, first and last time that has ever happened. and glad of it.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

JamieT

As far as steaming and finishing goes, thats way over my head. No, im not stuck with it. I maybe just a country boy, but im a creative country boy!!
Learned just about everything I know, from the greatest man ive ever known. My father! Everything else was self taught thru the school of HARD KNOCKS ;-)

GDinMaine

Quote from: JamieT on March 26, 2014, 09:51:02 AM
I have no intentions of calling him back. Drobertson I considered that, but the more I thought about it,the more his little tantrum upset me. I woulda had no problem working with the guy, but his lack of decency quickly stopped that thought!


I  know it can be upsetting, but it might be worth loosing his business as opposed to dealing with this kind of person.  You should not have any trouble selling those boards.  There are plenty of suckers - like me - who want and like the look of sapwood.
It's the going that counts not the distance!

WM LT-40HD-D42

Magicman

There is nothing wrong with a customer having a particular project in mind that calls for all heart (dark) Walnut.  As a woodworker, I have too.  I have built pieces of furniture where my customer insisted in only dark wood.  I simply had to be willing to select the boards knowing that the finished piece would ultimately cost more.

I would never avoid or refuse to sell to a buying customer that only wants heartwood.  It's just that it would cost him more.

Another note; there is usually a purple streak just inside of the dark heartwood.  It is still heartwood and there is dark wood on each side of it, but when building, this streak has to be taken into account.  It can be distracting if it shows up in the wrong place on a piece of furniture.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

SawyerBrown

Quote from: dgdrls on March 25, 2014, 06:34:12 PM
Same for small amount I have moved.  I responded to one Walnut buyer and he indicated "I don't pay for sap wood"
I Indicated I would be happy to remove it for him but the board foot total stays the same as if it was on and I keep the sapwood.
Heck I was offering to saw for free

Reminds me of a story of an old farmer I worked for as a kid.  He had a weed mower that he advertised for $150.  Guy shows up one day, looks it over, then admits he has one just like it, he just needs a new rope recoil starter for it.
  "Would you sell me just the starter?"
  "Sure."
  "How much?"
  "$150."

Pete Brown, Saw It There LLC.  Wood-mizer LT35HDG25, Farmall 'M', 16' trailer.  Custom sawing only (at this time).  Long-time woodworker ... short-time sawyer!

Peter Drouin

I always scale inside the sap wood with walnut and cherry, butternut .
And most times I take off most of the sapwood. Most of my customers don't like sapwood :)

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

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