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Help and Guidance Please!

Started by Big thicket, March 17, 2014, 11:08:41 PM

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Big thicket

Hello all! I am new to the site and this is my first post. Well here is a brief version of my story:
I inherited some land that my family received in the 1800's as a land grant for moving to Texas. It is untouched heavily wooded property in the vicinity of the big thicket national preserve. We were actually forced to sell a portion of our property to the government for the preserve. Anyways I am wanting to thin the property out real nice and do the logging myself. I have never logged before but i am a quick learner and hard worker. I just want to get you guys opinions and advice. Here is what I have, to try and get the job done: a variety of chainsaws, a bobcat skidsteer with grapple attatchment, f-350 dually with a 32 foot gooseneck trailer capable of handling 30,000 lbs. There is also several mills close by. Would doing this myself be worth it and profitable? I am currently not working and have plenty of time on my hands. Let me know what yall think!


For those wondering the property is in Village mills, texas

BargeMonkey

 Every region of the country is different so I don't know what your cutting or what the mills are buying. You can cut and drag quite a bit of wood with a skidsteer, actually a guy on here has quite a awesome set up with his hooked onto a small trailer. As far as profitable,  depends how hard you work and what you can cut. Logging is not a get rich quick kinda thing, its an expensive hobby for us.

thecfarm

Big thicket,welcome to the forum. How many acres you got? Have you ever cut trees at all? There is ALOT to getting a tree on the ground. Not just the chainsaw part,but which way it wants to fall,the trees around it,why cut that one and not the one 20 feet from it. Than once it's on the ground how to cut it for the best money. I have cut 2 feet off from a 16 foot log and made more money on that 14 foot log. Here in Maine I must fill out an Intent To Log form. A very simple form,but I get scale slips from each load that leaves my land and I must fill that out at the end of the year. And there is ALOT of safety stuff too. Than you have to see if the mills are buying. Than one week they are buying,than 2 weeks from now they are not. My Father and me did what you want to do. We did it with a 40hp tractor. We had someone else haul the logs.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

WDH

I don't think that you will gain that much by doing it yourself.  You will not be efficient at it with the equipment that you have so your cost will be higher.  The biggest issue is what to do with the wood.  You must have someone to buy the wood, and the big mills in that area likely will not deal directly with you because they require a lot of general liability insurance and master timber harvester certification.  You will be the lowest on the pecking order, and may not get quota to haul when you need to haul. 

I suspect that you well be best served by putting the timber up for competitive bid and let one of the established reputable suppliers harvest the timber. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Cedarman

You might want to hire a consulting forester for a day and walk the woods with them.  Explain what you want to do.  Then have the forester explain  the best way to meet your goals.  Also ask the forester about making a long term plan for the woods and what it will take to achieve those goals.
I have hired consultants for a day and felt that I got more than my moneys worth.
They have years of experience to draw from.
If you do hire one, do some research to find a reputable one.
And welcome.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Phorester


I agree with WDH. 

You're attempting two professions in this endeavor: logging and forestry. Logging is the 1st or 2nd most dangerous job in the USA depending on which such list you look at. You can also ruin the commercial value of a bunch of trees quickly if they are not graded and bucked properly after felling, and if they are felled so they split or break up when they hit the ground. Forestry comes in with deciding which trees to leave in a thinning operation.  Cutting a tract of timber wrong can set the productivity back for 50 - 100 years since trees grow so slow.

You might try it on a very small scale. Talk to the mills in the area and see what they tell you about buying logs. Most around here have a set of loggers they buy from and will not buy from anybody else. They may be willing to buy small quantities from someone who drives up with a truckload, but not on a steady basis.  But with no experience and the wrong equipment, what you want to do will be difficult to accomplish.

Big thicket

Wow! You guys touched areas I haven't even thought about. I really wanted to try this out but am now a little worried about doing it correctly and  possibly ruining the timber. Does anyone know of a reputable forester in the area were my property is? (Village mills tx)
Please keep the feedback coming I really appreciate it!

BBTom

Big Thicket,  Use the find-a-database at the upper right of Forestry forum page and there are two foresters listed within 2 hours or so of you. 

They know what goes on in TX and would be the best ones to give you advice.
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

thenorthman

hiring a forester, and then hiring a professional logger, would get it done faster and probably better.

However, there is no reason you cant do it yourself.

First thing though you need to find a buyer for the wood, find out what kind of wood they accept, lengths, preferred lengths, minimum diameters, and species.

Nothing worse than looking at a giant pile of firewood in an arid state.

Then you can contact your county/state forester, and discuss permitting, and stand improvement.

Normally I would not suggest this... but find a game of logging course, or similar.  It will teach you all sorts of stuff about timber falling that never crossed your mind.

And finally, don't bother with the skid steer, they do ok on flat ground, as in parking lots, but not so good with mud, stumps, sinkholes, big rocks, and brush.  You may consider getting a decent sized tractor with a logging winch, or an old skidder.  Although a tractor isn't the best option its better then a skid steer, and plenty of folks use em for logging.

Production vs time is the key to making money at logging, since your unemployed, you have all the time you need, essentially its just a matter of making enough to make it worth your time and pay for the fuel and maintenance on whatever equipment you end up using.
well that didn't work

ely

if you are cutting down any of those 100 plus feet tall pines, I would like to come by and saw a few of them down just for the sake of hearing them hit the ground. ;D

Southside

Big Thicket,

A lot of the members here have posted very valid points regarding methods, obstacles, equipment, etc.  That having been said - there is no reason you can not do this yourself and be much better off financially at the end of it.  As you said, you are unemployed, so time is on your side at this point, if it takes you three days to fill your gooseneck with good logs at first that was three days you did not earn income otherwise.  Do your homework, go to the mills around and ask them for a price sheet and insurance requirements etc, you may find that smaller mills are easier to work with rather than big ones.  You can also try to find a local log buyer / broker to sell your wood to, it will be less than what the mill pays but they often will buy from small producers and may have a shorter haul for the logs. 

It takes a lot to learn to fell trees in a safe, intentional manner, the learning curve is steep - start small, see if there is a course you can take through a university or the forestry department.  I would even go so far to ask some of the smaller mills if they can recommend a good logger you could spend a couple days with, there very well may be somebody who would take you under their wing if you are not competition for them. 

If you sell the wood to a logger you will receive stumpage, which varies according to wood category, area, etc, you could be paid anywhere from 15% to 50% for your trees - the logger has to make money as well and that is another topic all together, but that can be a significant difference at the end of the day - it all depends on what you have there.

Consulting foresters do a very good job in many cases, personally when I was trying to sell stumpage one time back when and we could not find a logger to do the job I wanted I had one tell me I could not sell my own wood, "It just won't work".  Well, that was when I decided I was not going to take 20% of my value to get a job done I was not going to be happy with so I began to do it myself.  Yes, I wrecked some trees and logs at first, some fell the wrong way, I ruined some saw bars, but it was not too long I was selling #1 logs on a regular basis and things grew from there.  We all start somewhere - heck, I wrecked a #3, oak log yesterday, and it still pi$$ed me off at myself.  My point is if you use your head you can make do what you want and in my opinion be financially better off for it. 

Good luck and don't be afraid to ask any questions here, there are lots of great guys here that will step up. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
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Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Birchwood Logging

Welcome to the fourm big ticket I started out using a cat 232b skidsteer and a f450 dump truck I had logering over the tire tracks had forks and a tooth bucket it done pretty well is your machine tracked or tire?  Is the terrain there very steep? What type of trees do you have on your property? With my skid loader and truck I could make any where from $200 to $1000 a day depending on the quality of the timber and how many loads I could get out in a day. I had previous experience logging and cutting timber and knowing how to buck logs up to get the grade. Growing up around a saw mill and wood products business. Every one has to start some where the main thing is to be safe not to get in a hurry and do as much research as you can your in the right place
John Deere 700H with winch, John Deere 550A with winch, Cat 232 Skid Steer,Cat 262c Skid Steer, Wood Mizer Lt 40 super HD, Ford F-700 and F-600 log trucks, Ford F-450 dump truck

Big thicket

The land is flat and my skidsteer is a track machine. I guess I am going to learn the exact tree species I have and a price schedule for the species I have. I know that I do have a mixture of pine and hardwoods.
I really want to thank you all very much for your posts please keep them coming I find it all helpful and educational.

Texas Ranger

Big Thicket, here is a list of consultant foresters for Texas, they are recognized by the state as providing professional services.

http://tfsweb.tamu.edu/uploadedfiles/frd/referral.pdf
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

luvmexfood

You can do it. I log with a farm tractor and deliver my logs on a 16 ft trailer pulled behind an F150. Slow, Yes. But since I lost my job I seem to have plenty of time. Hardwork. Yes. But if I hadn't had these trees to fall back on I would be living under a bridge. Am I getting rich? NO. Am I getting by? Barely. Do I enjoy the work? Absolutely.

I take the farm tractor, about 45 hp, and lift one end of the log with the boompole and mounted a winch on the tongue of the trailer then pull it on board. Will have the chain from the boompole lifting slightly on the log as I pull it to help ease it across the back of the trailer.

Going to try something else. Instead of lifting the log to keep so much strain on the back of the trailer I am going to put a log crossways across the back of the trailer so the weight will not be on trailer and I will only have to set the log I am hauling up one time. Main thing is be safe. Hope this helps.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

danabg

How big are the trees?If you have no experience at all with logging you will have to be VERY CAREFUL,like someone already stated the learning curve is steep especially with big trees.I f you could find someone with experience to help teach you how to fall and skid it would be a big help.I really feel the need to advise caution, it is dangerous work accidents can happen quickly especially for those with little experience.

thenorthman

there is a plethora of knowledge here...

Take your time, look up, have an escape route, you get tired call it a day. this works for all aspects of logging. whether it be skidding, limbing, or cutting.

Biggest thing is know when to push yourself and when to back off, when you get tired thats when costly mistakes happen.

Otherwise, unless you have marginal timber, which it sounds like you don't, pay attention to your scale sheets.  The mill/broker should provide them.  Keep in mind the last load you sent and try to see why it scaled out the way it did.  You'll pick up on whats not so good and whats the cream fairly quick.

And I will say again, get some proper training on timber falling, its dangerous, hard work, and if you don't have a clue what your doing, its deadly hard work.  Even if you can get some busted ole hand faller to walk you through the first few, you'll be miles ahead.

Once you get deep in it, you're going to have more questions... thats the beauty of logging, its always different, have to be quick witted and ready for a challenge.  (and if you work with a crew be witty, and ready for a laugh :D)
well that didn't work

Texas Ranger

You have got to have a buyer, all the rest is useless if you cannot move the logs.  You have got to know how to cut for grade, or you are losing money and wasting time.  The northman has the right idea, get someone who has been there to start you on the learning curve
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

CCC4

Big thicket, everyone has given good advice. I have a question that I don't think has been asked...how much saw time do you have under your belt? I have read in a few posts saying you can do it, and they are right. However, IMO, you are not going to just pack a saw into the woods w/o prior falling experience and just go to laying them down. Logging can be VERY unforgiving and dangerous.


SwampDonkey

Another angle with moving wood is if you have a woodlot cooperative, where they might have a contract with different mills for so much volume. Up here in NB we have them. We call them forest products marketing boards. I know you don't have boards, but maybe some kind of woodlot group to help market wood. I don't know what different states have available to them. Mills like volume, and if you can deliver on volume, price can be better. I'm not sure of your situation down there, might be a dead end.  :-\
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

36 coupe

I would start with fire wood and leave the logs alone.Taking out the small stuff will make it easier to get the logs out later.I would move toward buying a band mill and selling lumber.Fuel oil is 3.89 a gallon here.Pellet stoves are popular,so much so there has been a pellet shortage.A fellow in Texas talked about piling and burning mesquite trees.In Mexico they are making Mesquite charcoal that gets shipped to Maine.There is a company near me that sells smoking and grilling woods.They buy wood and chip it.

petefrom bearswamp

I suggest that if you plan to do it yourself, take Northman's advice and take "game of logging" course.
Some of the mills here require that their suppliers do this.
timber harvesting is a dangerous business alright.
IMO you will regret using the skid steer even with tracks.
Safety is paramount when running a saw, felling, skidding, bucking the whole ball of wax.
By all means contact a consultant forester.
I don't know what the timber bidding situation is there, but here it brings by far the best price even after paying consulting fees..
I am accepting  bids on my home woodlot today and already have one bid that exceeds my expectations by far.
Good luck either way.
Pete
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

thenorthman

I must be getting old... forgot about  D. Douglas Dents, Professional Timber Falling.  Its a rather small book for the price, and some of the pictures belong in a museum, but the methods and techniques are still very relevant today as they where then.

I believe its still available through Bailey's.  If not there is bound to be one on Ebay.
well that didn't work

thecfarm

Here in Maine if I cut wood on my own land I do not need insurance,to be certified in logging or really any of the other rules that is required by the big mills. I do need to file a report with the state on what I cut.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

SwampDonkey

Here in NB, who ever trucks the wood to market takes care of the paperwork (chain of custody). I just need to provide my PID # that identifies the property. Some mills in the US do require certification of the source of wood. That may be more relaxed now, don't know. But a few years ago they pushed it hard in some Maine mills near the New Brunswick border. Huber was one, but only required 20 % certification to meet their market demand if I recall. All the other stuff Cfarm mentioned is for those working on public and mill ground. A private woodlot owner doesn't have to jump through those hoops I don't think. Not in NB either. They just want some way to verify the wood came from your land, and not stole.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

thecfarm

Even on my land the state of Maine requires me to fill out an intent to log form and than report what ever I cut and sell off my land. Firewood is exempt.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Texas Ranger

no such thing in free Texas  8)
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

SwampDonkey

Tex, it's because of wood theft. Some think wood is free to take off your land and wood piles. I don't care for that kind of freedom. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

BBTom

I could be wrong, cause I am not a Texan, but I think they have a different way to deal with wood theft down there and it does not include making all the innocents and victims fill out BS paperwork.

I think they call it S&W justice. Wood thieves make good fertilizer for trees.
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

SwampDonkey

I'm sure the paperwork won't be spared. The victims bare all the costs it seems no matter what geographical boundaries you live in.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Big thicket

Thanks again everyone! I really enjoy reading what everyone has to say!

36 coupe

Quote from: thecfarm on March 19, 2014, 06:31:05 PM
Even on my land the state of Maine requires me to fill out an intent to log form and than report what ever I cut and sell off my land. Firewood is exempt.
This is done to make sure sales tax is paid on lumber sold.A fellow who buys logs and sells lumber says the sales tax people are a pain.They tell him how much lumber there is in a log.They busted 2 old women who had a perpetual yard sale going.Some years ago the sales tax div boasted they had 11 new investigators to combat sales tax fraud.The state is real short on restaurant inspectors though.

JohnM

Quote from: thenorthman on March 19, 2014, 08:34:11 AM
I must be getting old... forgot about  D. Douglas Dents, Professional Timber Falling.  Its a rather small book for the price, and some of the pictures belong in a museum, but the methods and techniques are still very relevant today as they where then.

I believe its still available through Bailey's.  If not there is bound to be one on Ebay.
Yep I got that through Bailey's a few years ago, pretty sure they still have it.  It's a little 'wordy' and hard to follow at times for a novice like me but I usually get it the second or third time through. ::)  Much like this thread it's a great read! :P :)
Lucas 830 w/ slabber; Kubota L3710; Wallenstein logging winch; Split-fire splitter; Stihl 036; Jonsered 2150

GAB

Big thicket you said:
"I really want to thank you all very much for your posts please keep them coming I find it all helpful and educational."
I'd like to add the following to the comments sent your way by others: 
When they say look up one thing they are talking about is being on the look out for WIDOW Makers. 
You need to learn on how to measure or scale logs.  Some buyers will take advantage of uninformed sellers. 
You also need to learn about the different log scales and what is used in the area.  As an FYI example I am told that in the six New England states use of the Doyle scale is frowned upon.
You might want to make up a list of logs and then see what each scale will yield.
Buy some plastic wedges as they are your friends and are easier on chainsaw chains than steel ones - ie they are expendable.  I frequently saw hardwood wedges to use as an aid in felling trees.
If you decide to hire a logger then get references and go and see the type of work that each individual does.  The taller the stumps the more money was left in the woods.  Also you need to become a stump reader.  Believe it or not you can learn a lot by just studying a stump.  That tall stump might be the difference between 2 rather than 3 salable logs from a tree.
If I'm cutting for firewood many times I will saw high and go back and get the bottom block.
If you try and harvest trees that are hollow all bets are off as to how they will fall in many cases.  Plan on at least 2 routes of escape.  For example every Shag Bark hickory I have cut, to date, has been hollow.  Some trees are better left as critter trees.
If you get a tree hung up do not be afraid of wrapping a chain around it and try turning it to the ground.  Another option is to wait for it to come down.  I have done both.
Hope I haven't bored you.  GAB

W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

stoneeaglefarm

A point that may help you, For sure take a course on the chain saws and chopping, I think everyone on this site can tellya off a bad cut, a bad fallen limb, falls, pains, Its a very dangerous buisness, It may do you some good to find a log job, Small operation going on and go check it out and it will give you a idea. Check around for qualified loggers, There are good and bad in every buisness. You may find one that will allow you to check things out. Cutting trees is not a back yard game, Cutting lumber trees wrong and you end up with no money and possibly spending money on repairs to yourself or equipment. Ya can never out run a 60 foot tree. Flat ground or not. Be careful. Take some time to learn. You may end up liking it and become a woods men.

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