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Started by dablack, March 17, 2014, 11:04:06 AM

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beenthere

And.. in the end after the last piece of ridge goes on, how will you get yourself down? 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

dablack

Building my own house in East TX

beenthere

Maybe buy two extra pieces of roofing (for spares in case one or two gets damaged which can happen) and at the end, build a scaffold that you can make into a frame for a slide. Put those two extra pieces on the scaffold and send the roof ladders (chicken ladders) down the slide, and last but not least you go down off the roof on the slide.

Kids might even enjoy helping if you do that.  ;D
Better than a zip line (which may be another alternative). Or a sky hook.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Josef

Hi dablack, this will be long, but hopefully helpful if you haven't worked with tin extensively......

A steel roof is a very efficient and long lasting roofing material, you mentioned selecting a color, if you're going with any shade of grey I'd suggest going with bare galvalume. Bare galvalume typically has a 30 year warranty, is considerably less expensive than a painted panel, will not corrode as readily if scratched, and is what in the trade is called a "self healing" in that it will oxidize and seal minor scratches at the surface of the aluminum/zinc coating. (not major scratches exposing the substrate). (Galvalume, not galvanized, galvanized is guaranteed to rust)

Galvalume as manufactured under license from Bethlehem Steel has been in use on industrial and shipyard buildings for over 50 years without significant coating failure. Painted galvalume must be first chemically etched for the primer coat of paint to adhere, this effectivley reduces the corrosion resistance of the galvalume and any corrosion resistance must be addressed by the paint coating. Past siliconized polyester paints had a reasonable 20 year lifespan, and the newer flourocarbon coatings have extended that out to 30 years, but none of these have any significant abrasion resistance and scratch very easily.

If you read the painted warranty they are very heavily prorated over their service life, and have more ways to void that warranty than carver had liver pills (some even require that the cut edges be sealed with paint by the installer in order to maintain their warranty in the event of edge rust). Corrosion is usually addressed in terms of "penetration" (read holes in the panel) and not so much in terms of surface failures. And any scratches will void that warranty as to coating integrity. Different colors are also allowed specific degrees of fading, with brown fading the most followed closely by red.

Another thing to be aware of are the different grades of panel within any product line, and different thickness gauges, 29 ga will support a 40# live load at 2' purlin spacing, 26ga will support the same load at up to 4' purlin spacing (R panel with 3/4" profile)

a) liner panels with a thinner finish coating and little or no wash coat designed for building interiors, typically ceilings, very little corrosion resistance in exterior applications.

b) secondary panels with full thickness coatings, sometimes minor surface blemishes, but more often having not passed quality control in the surface treatment when curing the finish coat, they look really good for a short time in exterior applications but in 5 or 10 years when they begin showing wear you find out why they were sold at a discount without warranty. A panel can also be rejected and designated as secondary for tensile strength deficiencies, i.e. a grade D 40kpsi determination when a grade E 50kpsi minimum is required for loading engineering.

c) ag panels, typically good products but usually only having a 20 year warranty, somewhat lower quality paint but still very serviceable, used in agricultural buildings with predetermined lifespans due to their severe service environment so the building and roofing will "wear out" at about the same time.

d) residential/commercial panels, usually those with 30 year warranties, a flourocarbon-kynar and ceramic type paint that will provide the service life commercial installations require, a very good product, but scratch it and it will rust just like any other panel.

When handling/storing the panel keep it covered and sloped in the stack, do not allow it to be exposed to rain while stacked, it will wick moisture between the sheets and may allow "white rust" to start on the coating surface, a blemish  which while not corrosion is very hard to remove. (and yes this is spelled out in the warranty) bare galvalume is more suceptible to this than painted product.

When taking sheets from the stack try to always have two people, do not slide one sheet over another, lift them straight up. The sheets are cut to length with a shear after forming, this means that the sheet will have a burr upward on one end of he sheet and downward on the other end, and sliding that downward burr over the painted surface of the sheet below it will strip the paint like a razor blade or paint scraper. Many of these concerns are mitigated with bare galvalume and it has an excellent warranty as well.

Do not install the panels with nails, use screws with metal backed neoprene washers. 1 1/2" galvanized ring shank nails will fail with less than 200 lbs pullout, 1" screws have about 700 lbs pullout.

When finishing panels for the day always make sure all the fasteners are installed, a light coating of dust overnight will make it more difficult to walk on the sheets the next day. (little trick, gummy shoe soles with a very light misting of water on the panels can help your feet stick to the sheet with painted panels) (another, predrilling the sheets with an 1/8" drill bit while stacked for one side at a time will make installing the screws much faster and easier, make sure you have the sheets oriented correctly, they have a very specific orientation, with a lap rib with anti siphon designs)

If you're considering a grey color selection you might look at using bare galvalume as it will (within a few years) weather to a pleasant nondescript grey color.

Good luck, extra hands make it safer and easier, long ladders with jacks and planks are easier than scaffolding. Battery screw guns are a necessity, offset snips for long cuts, butterfly snips for cross rib cuts, and scoring adjacent to a rib base with a utility knife will usually allow folding and snapping off a full length sheet (be careful this edge will be razor sharp)

In my house I'm the boss, I know this because my wife said so, I only hope she doesn't change her mind!

New to me Timber Harvester that I'm learning to operate, been building a home built mill for a while, should be ready to make sawdust with it someday if I ever quit "modifying" the design.

thechknhwk

Very good advice and information Josef.  Want to come install my roof? ;D

Ljohnsaw

Josef,
Great information that will come in very handy on my build!  Thanks
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

dablack

Josef,

Thanks for the detailed post.  I am going with a 26 gauge galvalume on 2' purlin spacing.  Should be pretty tough!  I will use proper screws and I have a cordless driver with a spare battery. 

thanks
Austin
Building my own house in East TX

Josef

hello,

thechknhwk, I'd be happy to if I were closer

dablack, Galvalume is a good choice, 26 ga over your roof deck may be overkill, but you'll have a roof that will outlast any other roofing product besides slate or copper.

A few more points, (didn't think of these yesterday, memory like a steel sieve) when walking on the roof panels don't walk on the ribs, keep your feet between the ribs on the flats, the ribs will kink pretty easy with the concentrated load of a boot heel. (kink the sheet, fracture the coating, start rusting of the substrate)

When dragging the sheets up the roof a welding visegrip with pads clamped to the end makes a great handle, use gloves if you have enough grip to wear them, don't even think of trying to install sheets in a light wind as a flying or loose sheet can remove fingers in the blink of an eye.

Tin roofs typically fail upward, not downward, wind uplift fasteners placement pattern usually is 1 per square foot, 8 across the panel at the eave and ridge, alongside the ribs in each flat, and 4 across the panel aligned on the side of the flat next to the lap rib at each intermediate purlin. Screws always go in the flats, screws go thru ribs only to attach trim.

If attaching purlins over a roof deck make sure you attach them directly to your rafters not just to the decking. If you're considering adding insulation to the roof under the panels start the purlins off with a 2x6 at the eave, then place a 2' wide strip of 1 1/2" thick foam board on the roof and capture it with the next 2x4 purlin, repeat up the roof and finish it off with a 2x6 at the ridge, this will make sure you have a structural purlin with solid lumber that will match up with the flat flange of the ridge cap to place the fasteners. A 2x4 won't be wide enough at the ridge unless placed below the ridge point. If you're using 1" foam insulation then 1" rough cut boards work excellently as purlins over a roof deck.

Don't forget a roof starter (drip edge) and foam rib closures at the eave and ridge cap, these will slow down the ingress of warm moist air that can cause condensation.

When you order your sheets measure your roof slope and order it to the inch, doesn't cost extra and you don't pay for material to cut off and throw away, cheat the sheet down 2 inches for an overhang that will work with gutters, and the 2 inch space at the ridge makes fitting the ridge easier.

When starting the run the first three sheets should be attached with only a few screws, this will allow you to see if the sheets are running square (without a step in the pattern), it they are not the roof deck is probably a bit out of square, not at all unusual, most are. I don't know if this will make sense but the procedure is to align the sheet overhang to run straight, if the sheets are not parallel to the roof edge you can pull the sheet lap rib about a quarter inch per sheet (stretch the pattern) either top or bottom to get the outside edge square and allow the pattern to shift to stay straight at the overhang. Continue across the roof and check the distance to the opposite edge every few sheets so you can plan adjustments to the pattern so the last sheet ends up parallel to the other edge. Not paying attention to the pattern can result in the sheets trying to run off the roof down the slope with a very unattractive uneven roof overhang.

Many times its easier to lap the sheet an extra rib space or two to finish the roof instead of ripping the last sheet to fit so long as it works out to match the 9" rib spacing of the sheet.

Sorry I can't be of more help installing, 10 years ago I'd have been in Texas several times a year standing up buildings, but retirement is keeping me in PA now.

Oh, and before you pay for an extra sheet you'll find they probably will include an extra as a cover sheet for shipping. Mueller building materials was my favorite supplier in TX.
In my house I'm the boss, I know this because my wife said so, I only hope she doesn't change her mind!

New to me Timber Harvester that I'm learning to operate, been building a home built mill for a while, should be ready to make sawdust with it someday if I ever quit "modifying" the design.

Josef

You know how hindsight is always 20/20, If your windows were not yet installed you could attach outriggers to the rough frame openings with diagonal braces for support and spread an extension ladder section between them with a 2x10 walk board on top as a pik and work the roof overhang for installing fascia/soffit and roofing sheets all at the same time without scaffolding. Then shift the outriggers down to the garage door openings to work the windows, siding and trim for the first floor. That hindsight is a bugger.
In my house I'm the boss, I know this because my wife said so, I only hope she doesn't change her mind!

New to me Timber Harvester that I'm learning to operate, been building a home built mill for a while, should be ready to make sawdust with it someday if I ever quit "modifying" the design.

dablack

Quote from: Josef on December 12, 2014, 11:42:04 PM
If attaching purlins over a roof deck make sure you attach them directly to your rafters not just to the decking. If you're considering adding insulation to the roof under the panels start the purlins off with a 2x6 at the eave, then place a 2' wide strip of 1 1/2" thick foam board on the roof and capture it with the next 2x4 purlin, repeat up the roof and finish it off with a 2x6 at the ridge, this will make sure you have a structural purlin with solid lumber that will match up with the flat flange of the ridge cap to place the fasteners. A 2x4 won't be wide enough at the ridge unless placed below the ridge point. If you're using 1" foam insulation then 1" rough cut boards work excellently as purlins over a roof deck.

I bought some used 3/4" foam board that I was really wanting to put up there.  I wanted to use at least two layers.  I saw on youtube some guys put it on horizontally, the way you describe.  Then I read about guys putting the foam board up and THEN putting up vertical purlins screwed through the foam into the rafters.  After the vertical purlins are on, then you put on your horizontal purlins.  This will leave you a vertical air chase all the way up the roof.  Then the metal itself is vented at the peak.  Keeps the metal cool and lets any moisture out.  Thoughts?


When starting the run the first three sheets should be attached with only a few screws, this will allow you to see if the sheets are running square (without a step in the pattern), it they are not the roof deck is probably a bit out of square, not at all unusual, most are. I don't know if this will make sense but the procedure is to align the sheet overhang to run straight, if the sheets are not parallel to the roof edge you can pull the sheet lap rib about a quarter inch per sheet (stretch the pattern) either top or bottom to get the outside edge square and allow the pattern to shift to stay straight at the overhang. Continue across the roof and check the distance to the opposite edge every few sheets so you can plan adjustments to the pattern so the last sheet ends up parallel to the other edge. Not paying attention to the pattern can result in the sheets trying to run off the roof down the slope with a very unattractive uneven roof overhang.

I understand completely.  I will do my best to keep it straight but I will have gutters so that will help too. 

Many times its easier to lap the sheet an extra rib space or two to finish the roof instead of ripping the last sheet to fit so long as it works out to match the 9" rib spacing of the sheet.

I wouldn't have thought of this!  I don't have an exact measurement right now but the house is 52' long with about 21" of gable end overhang on each end.  That puts me close to 56'....which is NOT a multiple of 3'! 
Building my own house in East TX

WDH

Josef,

Excellent.  Very informative. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Josef

"Thoughts?" (way too many as my wife always reminds me)

Well, there are two trains of thought on insulation applications and moisture infiltration, the regs (building codes) follow the premis of an air chase in reroofing over solid decks and require designs that allow free movement of air from the bottom to the top of the slope under the sheet. These designs are typically engineered to support a volume of air greater than the volume of the ribs that your plan would allow. They usually require placing firing strips 90 degrees to the purlins and under them attached directly over the rafters, this void space under the purlin is the designed air chase up the roof. In actual practice this has little or no effect on roofing temperatures, think of an attic, relying on natural convection to reduce excessive temperatures has been pretty much replaced with forced ventilation by attic fans in locals where these temps are destructive.

In any discussion of insulation designs there is one common point, in order to have condensation you have to have warm moist air coming into contact with a cold surface, think of the underside of a tin roof at night. To prevent condensation you have to eliminate that contact, hence the other train of thought, limit the ingress of outside air as much as possible under the tin. What we have found in practice is that placing a thermal barrier directly under the tin and isolating the tin from outside or inside air is the most effective. New products have replaced the T-Max type insulation barrier, now the most used are the rolls of 1/4" thick foil backed "bubble" insulation barrier, or the foam filled 1/4" thick foil backed product. The foil acts a reflective radiant barrier to excessive heat (faced up under the sheet of course) and the impermeable barrier prevents warm moist air from contacting the tin.

This is all well and good and provides the ideal (in my opinion) solution, but many more reroofs are done with voids between purlins flush filled with foam insulation and the tin fastened directly to the purlins, this fills the voids and prevents accumulation of moist air under the sheet, provides a barrier to excessive heat transmitted thru the sheet to the roof and, if the rib voids are filled with foam plugs, will prevent ingress of any warm moist air. This also provides a direct (hard) mechanical connection of the tin to the rafter structure thru the purlin without the movement allowed when foam insulation compresses over time and the fasteners become loose because of this compression with structure (purlins) placed over foam insulation. The disclaimer here should be that this installation process might not meet UBC in your area.



"That puts me close to 56'." 

Lets see, thats actually 55.5 feet, devided by 3 is 18.5 sheets, lap the last sheet by half (two rib sections) and thats 55.5 feet (approx, not counting the extra lap rib at the beginning of the roof, about 3") But the advantage is that if removing part of a sheet is necessary it is infinitely easier to do it from the edge of that sheet than trying to split it beyond the first rib section.

It suddenly registers that my posts are quite far from the "sawmills and milling" topics in this part of the site, and I apologize for this, if I should move this part of the discussion elsewhere please point me there. Just trying to be helpful, as so many of you have been so helpful to me as I'm beginning my journey in sawmills.
In my house I'm the boss, I know this because my wife said so, I only hope she doesn't change her mind!

New to me Timber Harvester that I'm learning to operate, been building a home built mill for a while, should be ready to make sawdust with it someday if I ever quit "modifying" the design.

dablack

Quote from: Josef on December 13, 2014, 11:24:27 AM
They usually require placing firing strips 90 degrees to the purlins and under them attached directly over the rafters, this void space under the purlin is the designed air chase up the roof.

This is exactly what I was trying to describe.  A layer of foam, followed by furring strips that run from eave to peak and are attached to the rafters.  Then horizontal purlins 2' on center.  This would leave a 3/4" x 20" chase all the way up. 

In actual practice this has little or no effect on roofing temperatures, think of an attic, relying on natural convection to reduce excessive temperatures has been pretty much replaced with forced ventilation by attic fans in locals where these temps are destructive.

I think some people call it ASV (above sheathing ventilation).  I can see your point about the lack of air flow to carry away the heat.

..... but many more reroofs are done with voids between purlins flush filled with foam insulation and the tin fastened directly to the purlins, this fills the voids and prevents accumulation of moist air under the sheet, provides a barrier to excessive heat transmitted thru the sheet to the roof and, if the rib voids are filled with foam plugs, will prevent ingress of any warm moist air. This also provides a direct (hard) mechanical connection of the tin to the rafter structure thru the purlin without the movement allowed when foam insulation compresses over time and the fasteners become loose because of this compression with structure (purlins) placed over foam insulation. The disclaimer here should be that this installation process might not meet UBC in your area.

No building codes here.  I'm just doing the best I can with the most up to date knowledge (like yours).  I never liked the idea of the structure holding the tin having to be fastened through foam.  Your idea of filling the area between the purlins with foam will work great.  It breaks the thermal bridge between the rafters and the outside and it will be much easier to install.  The only worry is if water does get under the tin, it might sit against the purlin. 

But the advantage is that if removing part of a sheet is necessary it is infinitely easier to do it from the edge of that sheet than trying to split it beyond the first rib section.

I totally agree.  Like I said before.  I'm really glad you brought this up.  I would not have thought of it.

It suddenly registers that my posts are quite far from the "sawmills and milling"

I don't know if you know the back story but about a year and a half ago, the house I built for my family burned down right before we moved in.  Unable to afford the materials to rebuild, I was looking into an inexpensive mill so I could mill my own lumber.  Magicman remembered me posting about my almost complete house build and asked why I needed so much lumber.  When I explained, he and others joined forces to come to my aid.  Some forum members came to help me fell my trees, buck them and stack them.  Magicman and others came about a year ago and cut all my trees into 1x, 2x6s, 2x4s, 2x8s, and 2x12s so I could rebuild.  Many other forum members donated to make the trip possible. 
Not everything in this thread has to do with "sawing and milling" but it has everything to do with the wonderful people that are here.  I've been given SO MUCH, the very least I can do is take some pictures and talk about what I'm doing so the members can see what they have done for me.
 
Building my own house in East TX

Josef

"The only worry is if water does get under the tin, it might sit against the purlin."

One of the great things about tin roofs is the ability to install them in one sheet from eave to ridge, no horizontal seams or joints means no potential leaks. Take care installing fasteners, don't overtorque them and there isn't any opening for water to get in. Seal your ridge cap lap joints with mastic tape or caulking and you're good to go.

Installing fasteners is a quality control point, examine the screws washer and you'll see they are cupped with the neoprene attached under the cup. This bunches the neoprene under the cup and forces it tight around the screw shaft. Overtorqueing will do two things, first it will collapse the metal cup, squash the neoprene and force it out from under the metal backer effectively thinning the seal material, but more importantly it will strip the screw shaft from the wood fiber and allow it to loosen over time, when it does it leaks. If you drive the screw hard enough for the washers metal backing to actually contact the tin panel you probably overtorqued it.

"I've been given SO MUCH, the very least I can do is take some pictures and talk about what I'm doing so the members can see what they have done for me."

I understand completely, I've recieved the benefit of many of this forums members assistance, sharing a little insight is the least I can do in return. Would have enjoyed the gathering when your trees were milled, but the distance might have been prohibitive.
In my house I'm the boss, I know this because my wife said so, I only hope she doesn't change her mind!

New to me Timber Harvester that I'm learning to operate, been building a home built mill for a while, should be ready to make sawdust with it someday if I ever quit "modifying" the design.

dablack

OK!  You have convinced me.  I will run horizontal 2x purlins 2' OC attached to the rafters under the roof deck.  Between the purlins I will place two layers of my 3/4 foam board.  That will give me about R8 and break the thermal bridge of the rafters. 

So, yesterday I finally found a way to get out on the roof!  I convinced myself to get out there with the rope, but was VERY uneasy.  I worked for about an hour but got very little done.  In desperation I tried going down the roof on my stomach feet first.  I slid down the OSB but once I got to the paper, I didn't slide at all.  The paper I'm using is grace triflex and it is very grippy!  I found I was able to move all over the roof on my stomach and nail the paper down as I worked up the roof.  I didn't even have tension on the rope.  This REALLY helped get a bunch done.  So now I have four rows of paper on the front and back of the house done.  I have the peak of the roof left to OSB and paper.  It is supposed to rain tonight so I'm hoping I at least get the OSB on.  I will have pictures tomorrow. 

Finally note.  Last night while working on the 4th row of paper, the sun was mostly down but I still had enough light to finish the last 15' of paper that I was working on.  Since the sun was down it was cooling off fast.  At one point I tried scooting over to the left like I had been doing for the past hour.  My feet slid out from me but that was it.  It felt like my shoes were wet.  I finally move to my left some and that was all she wrote.  Apparently as it cooled down dew covered the roof.  I was ok in the spot where I was working because I was keeping that spot dry.  Once I moved off that spot, I moved to a wet spot and slid down.  I still had my rope on but I slid about 10 feet down before it caught me.  That roof was like ice just from the dew.  I was amazed at how fast the roof went from grippy to ice in just a few minutes.  I had to pull myself up with the rope!  At least now I have a way to be on the roof and feel secure (when it is dry). 

Austin
Building my own house in East TX

Hilltop366

For all the roofing We have done we put full length staging with top rail (could be metal or properly built wood) across the side that you are working on that comes up to a few feet from the eaves, then use roof brackets and planks for roof pitches over 6/12. When I was doing this kind of work it was not required but now contractors now have to use proper safety harness as well. Stay safe

dablack

Thanks Hilltop.   I will always be tied off.  Sometimes I tie off to two spots just because it makes me feel better. 



Ok, yesterday afternoon, I got a little OSB and paper at the peak.  I didn't get all the OSB on but did get some. 



 



 

I'm pretty pleased.  It is supposed to pour the end of this week.  I'm out of grace triflex so I'm going to have to order more but I'm hoping to at least get the rest of the OSB on. 
Building my own house in East TX

Bill Gaiche

That 9,000 board feet of lumber we milled sure looks different now from a year ago. bg

Magicman

I reminded Marty last week that it was that day a year ago that we left to go to Rusk.  I copied that "Goodwill" thread link to someone a while back and then read the entire thread.

After Austin has the interior stud walls, wiring, AC/heat duct, and insulation done, we will form a Drywall Hanging Crew and make another trip.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

dablack

Bill,  I made that same comment to Stacey yesterday.  Those big piles are pretty much gone. 

Lynn,   I'm hoping to start the interior walls by end of year.  Then plumbing the DWV, plumb the supply, then electric, then HVAC.  Since AC is last, due to budget and schedule we might just have to put a window unit down stairs and the add central air upstairs after we move in. 

Building my own house in East TX

Magicman

I understand.  We will accommodate whatever you work out.   :)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

dablack

Talking about Marty and the lumber piles, the last day of the goodwill trip, Marty and I were admiring the lumber piles and he said, "look at that!   We made you a house kit!   There is going to be some assembly required."  As he said it, he slapped me on the back and laughed.   Ha!
Building my own house in East TX

Magicman

Here is a LINK toward the ending of the sawing.   8)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

dablack

Wow!   I just read from where you posted to the end.  Stacey is the only one who looks the same.  I have a beard and the kids have all grown a foot!   Madeline looks like a young lady instead of a little girl.  Amazing what changes in a year.   


I need to go take a picture in front of the house wearing my wood-mizer shirt!
Building my own house in East TX

Magicman

I have received a PM from a FF member wanting to make a donation toward your AC. 

Any others that want to do so may contact me by PM and I will provide mine or dablack's mailing address.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

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