iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

New Forest Plan for New Brunswick

Started by Ranger McGregor, March 06, 2014, 07:47:09 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ranger McGregor

Has anyone heard anything about the new plan that is basically reducing the amount of conservation forest set aside on crown land or raising it?

It will be very interesting to see the results after the discussion between Irving and Rod Cumberland about herbicide use and effects on wildlife habitat.

SwampDonkey

I imagine it will be out with the budget. But Cumberland is out of touch. He should strap on a brush saw this summer and work beside me cutting out those sprayed plantations and I'll show him all kinds of hardwoods and also lots of red spruce being cut to save a planted black spruce. That's the true travesty planting trees where none are needed, and I mean plenty of red spruce. All that really needs planting is the roadside dead zone. Walk in 50 meters and it's a wall. I think he did more windshield cruising than walking. ;D The only place we see deer much is near wintering areas and they have been cutting those to lately because that's where the mature spruce is left (red spruce at that). A deer isn't in a clearcut in the winter unless there is low snowfall. Even on private where the land isn't all plantations as he says crown is, the deer are not in adjacent clearcuts in the winter they are in the mature-overmature softwoods, up here mostly in cedar. The 2007 opening of the 4-lane down through the Charleston-Wilmot area pretty much wiped them deer out in that wintering area. On private land. They moved over near the Hospital in Waterville, but there is a mature patch up along the Little Presque Isle stream and the deer are even walking on the ice like a trail in there. The place is all tramped up.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ken

I've heard from somebody that should know that there will be some information coming out this week.  I suspect the plan will be no more than increasing the aac for crown lands.  This will be accomplished by reducing the amount of conservation forest.  Going to be lots of crying and complaining from many. 
Lots of toys for working in the bush

Ranger McGregor

Its a very interesting topic depending on what your perspective is. On the wildlife perspective cleaning hardwoods from softwoods "is bad" but on the forestry perspective it "is good".

A big thing that people are overlooking as well is that Cumberland's point was not to attack an individual or company about their use of herbicide but to educate the public of the effects of herbicide.

This will be very interesting and there will be squawking from either side depending on the results.

SwampDonkey

Cleaning hardwoods in softwoods with brush saws is good for deer, all that new fresh regrowth next year. They don't winter in young growth, they winter in mature timber where there is thermal cover and small hardwoods in open voids. They can't reach limbs 10 feet up and don't chew bark off like rabbits. :) I have plantations that have been thinned, they are nearing 20 years old now and the deer are moving in. We never had many deer in my area even 40 years ago, our area is moose country. This before the big clearcut craze around here. I have video of moose herds, I see 3 deer together at most ever up here. Except down in the wintering ground I mentioned and they are much thinned out by the highway. My skid trails are moose paths.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ramicorn

I also think Cumberland is a little out of touch as well. In his cbc interviews his math is kind of questionable.I worked for the mill in cape breton for a summer and not using herbicide has resulted in many sites even after planting being unsuccessfully reforested, mainly because of raspberry. So in many cases no herbicides can make a site very unproductive for a long time or what we would even consider a forest. Herbicides will only hold back hardwoods temporarily so its not like that type of treatment will remove hardwoods from the landscape all together. I am not all for herbicide or anything but I think it is an important tool that foresters/techs should have the opportunity to use when it makes silvicultural sense, but in NS anyway with certification/city folks against it, herbicide wont be an option.
They are saying Rod is a former DNR deer biologist, did he retire or something?
Hows ranger school treatin ya mcgregor? gooner mcgoon still teach there?

SwampDonkey

I believe he retired. A friend of mine was a classmate with the current provincial biologist. And he has a few issues with the higher ups as well to the point that he was on leave for a bit. So there is some bitterness within DNR. When you visit Timber Management branch and see all the Irving trucks in the yard, versus DNR trucks, you know who they are working for. Also, when talking to them some time ago I find out that any tree 46 cm and bigger is considered 46 cm. That's the type of cruising they conduct, and RPF approved.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ranger McGregor

Quote from: Ramicorn on March 10, 2014, 09:32:27 PM
I also think Cumberland is a little out of touch as well. In his cbc interviews his math is kind of questionable.I worked for the mill in cape breton for a summer and not using herbicide has resulted in many sites even after planting being unsuccessfully reforested, mainly because of raspberry. So in many cases no herbicides can make a site very unproductive for a long time or what we would even consider a forest. Herbicides will only hold back hardwoods temporarily so its not like that type of treatment will remove hardwoods from the landscape all together. I am not all for herbicide or anything but I think it is an important tool that foresters/techs should have the opportunity to use when it makes silvicultural sense, but in NS anyway with certification/city folks against it, herbicide wont be an option.
They are saying Rod is a former DNR deer biologist, did he retire or something?
Hows ranger school treatin ya mcgregor? gooner mcgoon still teach there?

Yes he did leave and is now an instructor at the ranger school.

Ranger school is great experience/opportunity. Who do you mean? Haha ;D

Ramicorn

kenny mcginn aka gooner mcgoon. Cumberland is teaching wildlife I assume?

Mark Wentzell

Quote from: Ramicorn on March 11, 2014, 03:40:31 PM
kenny mcginn aka gooner mcgoon. Cumberland is teaching wildlife I assume?
Mcginn retired in December. Cumberland's a wildlife instructor.

Mark Wentzell

I'll throw in my take on the herbicide issue...

I've thinned in stands that had been previously treated with herbicide. As others have said, a lot of hardwood does grow back, not as much as if it hadn't been herbicided but still quite a lot. It will also likely grow back for a few years after the treatment.

That being said this was on Free hold land in Nova Scotia. I don't know what herbicide they used, how much was applied, or how long ago. I don't know if practices are different on crown or free hold land in new brunswick. Maybe they are maybe they aren't. All I can talk about with any certainty is what I have seen.

I also know that the highway from fredericton to moncton passes through some large jack pine plantations. Those plantations have been herbicided.  There is little to no deer food in those plantations but not all of the province looks like that and it would be foolish to use this as a yardstick for how deer are doing in the province. Some stands are better for deer, maybe others are worse.

Is herbicide bad? Its really bad if you're a hardwood tree, its a godsend if you're trying to feed a pulp mill and keep jobs in the province. Is it safe? The makers will say it's practically fit to drink, but it isn't on tap at any bar I know of. We've come a long way from DDT though, and I don't see any fish with two heads.

As far as herbicide hurting deer... We can look at  a dramatic spike in the deer population around the early 20th century when forestry practices began to change in the province.

Prior to this the norm had been to "selectively cut" (High grade) spruce and pine, but with the arrival of the pulp and paper industry the practice of clearcutting became more widespread. This opened up massive new amounts of food for the deer population, thus creating the spike. The population dropped off dramatically later in the century because of many factors. A few harsh winters, and the arrival of the coyote to name a few. The fact that herbicide use and the beginning of plantations happened at the same time... I DON'T KNOW. Some would argue, but I don't think there's enough evidence to definitively point in either direction. (Please feel free to disagree with my historical account, I was just boiling it down as I have learned it ;))

Bottom line is it's a complex problem. We're dealing with a huge number of people all wanting different things, a large number of whom have been fed biased and/or false information (From all sides), I was talking to someone the other day about this and they said they didn't even know that deer ate trees. People have the right to be uninformed and they have the right to have an opinion. If it was easy to manage wildlife or a forest then you wouldn't need a degree for either.

I frankly don't see a solution. We could eliminate herbicide and just do manual weeding but where on earth are you going to find enough people willing to make 100$ a day dragging a brush saw around in 30 (Celsius) degree weather while being eaten alive by horse flies to get all of that done? How would you pay for that?  But supposedly it'll make the deer happy.

We could keep using herbicide which would eradicate all the deer as some would lead us to believe. We'll grow a lot of spruce but we'll eliminate a source of revenue and put an end to a few hundred years of traditional field pursuits.

Both options leave someone ticked off. But they are not the only ways to deal with it, and likely any solution would have to be a comprimise.

I'll end with this,

What do a biologist, a forester, a landowner, an MLA and a member of the general public have in common? They all want something completely different.


SwampDonkey

One thing about the white tailed deer you may not know. It is an invasive species to the Maritimes. In my great grandfather's youth there were no deer up here, they hunted Caribou and moose, no deer. A couple books to read up on big game in New Brunswick are 'Men of the Autumn Woods: Non-resident Big Game Hunting in NB, the Golden Years 1885-1935' and 'Beyond the Trodden Path: Sport and Adventure in Early NB'. Author Gerry Parker, Canadian Wildlife Service (retired 1997). The second book has a couple of great grand dad's uncles, who were guides, great grandfather was a guide, grandfather was a guide on the Tobique. The deer arrived early 20th C. In the 1930's was the end of the NB woodland Caribou.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ramicorn

Yeah the interview with Rod I saw he was tote-ting the manual weeding as a big job creator, and mind you it would, but probably would require a lot of foreign temporary worker permits.

Ken

Plan is apparently going to be announced tomorrow.  Will be interested to see if there will be something in it for the smaller independent mills or will the big boys get all the extra allocation. 
Lots of toys for working in the bush

SwampDonkey

Rami, I do think some large contractors did hire some foreign workers. But as long as I have thinned it's been all local people. A lot of folks have thinned for over 20 years. Harder to get young people into thinning though. Most of the young fellers I see now aren't real productive on the end of a brush saw. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ramicorn

Yeah I am surprised it hasn't really been used for forestry around here, a company I worked for in NS did hire some Jamaicans a few years ago for planting but seemed to only be a one time thing. I think in BC it is pretty common practice to have foreign workers for brushing. I am one of those young fellars haha, but yeah overall most of the crews around here have very few younger guys getting into it or staying with it which is worrying but a sign of the times I imagine. I planted for many years and was a bit apprehensive about spacin, but liked it way more once I got into it a bit, alot higher money potential for a days work.

SwampDonkey

Well nothing new, same tune, same drum beat. They say woodlot owners will be able to sell more wood. How? They got more wood off crown to feed their upgrades they are going to announce. There's nothing there at all for woodlot owners. I'd like to read the details, not the glossy handouts.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ranger McGregor

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/canada/new-brunswick/story/1.2568734

Not a surprising result by any means. I guess my issue is that i see valuable arguments on both sides so i dont know which side to take. But interesting..

Ranger McGregor

I find it confusing how they can double protected natural areas, maintain deer yards. and decrease wildlife habitat all while increasing crown land to cut by 20%..

SwampDonkey

The government is great at shell games. If they are going to increase protected areas, that means they are only tying up land that has already been cut and treated (thinned) a few years ago. There is no more land other than that and swamps. And swamps have not held them back for cutting because that's what most of the PCT is now a days, all the good ground has been cut and thinned. Crown land cutting has a pretty loosey goosey definition of the clean water act and what a watercourse is. Better bring the rubber boots if your thinning. :D

In case you haven't noticed, they've been cutting those deer yards. Out in Becaquimac, they cut that one a couple winter ago. We had thinned a block beside it and as soon as it was thinned the deer ground was being cut. That was the only place I ever saw deer out there.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ranger McGregor

Another question would be is when did the public get to have a say in what happens to their  land?

SwampDonkey

They did through several reports and meetings, but pretty much ignored. The environmental movement doesn't influence politics here much like it does in Co or Cal. Mostly because it's not very well organized, very little funding sources and the government can not be sued. I haven't got much to complain about since I've still got a job for the foreseeable future. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ranger McGregor

I guess i cant complain either as im basically buying into being part of the industry by going to school for it ;D


SwampDonkey

Independent documentary site on the new Forestry Plan.

http://isourforestreallyours.com/Isourforestreallyours/Welcome.html

The plan is even in the Maine news.

Quite a hornet's nest I'm thinking. But probably everyone will get up in the morning and get on with life, like with many forestry issues before.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Mark Wentzell

The story certainly seems to draw a lot of comments every time it comes up, but I don't think the public outcry will lead to any changes in the plan. I wonder if the increase in allotment will fill the wood supply gap until a lot of the plantations become harvest ready? They won't get anywhere near as nice wood out of the plantations as they will get out of these stands though.

Thank You Sponsors!