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how to set up a mill propably with out to mistakes

Started by dr_pepper, June 14, 2004, 09:53:27 AM

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dr_pepper

 :P  howdy from the hep ya state.my name is mike and i work
at a saw mill in tennesse.
I want to rebuild a frick set
 works is this posssible with it being anciet.weel at lest 50 years old.the husk frame is rotted and some of the wheels
are cracked and the belts are missing thats my first ? where do you get such wheels and belts.?
nxt ?is there rule on how long a mandrel should be and what thickness. it  should be.(the mandrel and the main shaft is the same animal right?) how do u determine the horse pwr needed.for a such a shaft and what runs off it.i have noticed on' automatics the shafts are thicker even though they basicly
can do the same job, not meaning the amount of production,but the actual cutting.what is the minum hrse power yu can use.?next ? what gear do the standard two man
saws run under and why.ive seen some direct and some with
gear boxes?i would like to run with a pto off a tractor.and stil
cut at least.100 ties a day.how big does the tractor have to be. ??? so i use it for a loader as we;ll.

Tom

Welcome to the forum, Dr_Pepper.  

You've come to the right place.  We have circle mill guys that have been sitting in the background for months waiting for someone to come along and ask for help. :D

They've been inundated with our Band-saw chatter but still raise up for a breath every once in a while.  You might just have started something here.

Oh My!  I don't know if I can stand it or not.  Here come the carriage riders. :D :D

dr_pepper

 ??? I didnt want to start something,that couldnt be stopped
 I thought i had some good?s for the experts. :P regardless of what the average people may say. meaning. "band people" the circular  saw  has been around since the whee,.accidently
chewed into someones wooden porch.  and created the first plank.i believe his name was noah.

woodhaven

Not sure where to start. It will take a book to answer all those questions. For a start just jump in and start rebuilding. Thats a good mill and worth your trouble. Anything you can't buy for it you can build.
Richard

D._Frederick

Dr.-,

It would be hard to give you an exact answer, but would start with the saw blade. The old times use to figure 2 - 3 horse power per tooth on a circle blade with a kurf of  5/16 to 3/8 inches. With a mill made to run a 46 to 52 inch diameter blade with 24 teeth, the mandrel should be + or - 2inch diameter range. When the blades approaching 60 inches with over 50 teeth, the mandrel will be about 3 inches.

If you are looking at an older mill, I would stay away from babbit mandrel bearings, they may be broke and require re-pouring.

I would look at finding used parts if you are going to rebuild a mill, see if you can find another mill to buy to supply parts. My Dad on the No. 2 American he had, took the best carriage wheel to a foundry and had a new set cast from that wheel.

Flat belts are not a problem to get new from a supply house.

Ron or Tom could answer your question about sawing a 100 ties better. I would look for a 48 inch blade with 36 - 40 teeth and power it with a JD 4040 which is about a 100 hp.

Bruce_A

For a 7x9 tie, thats a hundred 12 inch or better sticks to handle.  You better have more than just a mill to start. Makes my back ache just to think about that much work.

Ron Wenrich

Try this for sawmill parts for the Frick:

http://www.bright.net/~albright/

I've run short shaft mills and long shaft mills. The long shaft mills usually have 3 bearings.  You have to set lead by taking all pressure off that middle bearing, or you'll have a spring in your shaft.

Shaft size is normally 2 7/16" for the smaller mills.  My automatic is running a 2 15/16" short shaft.  It doesn't really make much difference.  

Guys who run long shafts often use it as a jack shaft for other equipment.  I was at one mill that had 25 belts running in all different directions coming off the mill mandrel.  I don't recommend it, but it can be done.

I would rather you used a stationary power unit like a GM 471.  A lot easier than trying to put onto a tractor and getting your belt tension right.  A slipping belt will cause some headaches.

Rule-of-thumb is 5 hp/inch of wood sawn.  I'm running a 54" headsaw and can clear 20" of wood.  I'm running 125 hp electric.  When we used diesel, we used a GM 671 for power.

A 48" saw will clear about 17" of wood.  Its a good starter saw, and easier to maintain.  

Are you going to run a flat belt or V belt?  I'd opt for the V belt.  Power transfer is about 20-25 hp/belt.  

I also recommend you go over to Ebay and get a copy of the sawmill and dry kiln operators CD.  It runs $10-11 and has a section on circle saws that was made by the US Forest Service.  A lot of excellent info that you will need.

100 ties a day is a little too much for 2 guys.  A lot would depend on your support equipment, log size and other variables.  You're talking about doing an average of 6 Mbf/day, with rather small sized logs.  Get any meat in the logs and it gets to be more like 7-8 Mbf/day.

I think 40-50 ties per day is a little more realistic.  You better have an edger.  Putting boards on the carriage to edge is a big mistake.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

dr_pepper

 ???great imfo.ebay yu say ok,100 ties thats what we cut now
with three thats using an edger wich im not that fond of but dont see any postive alternative if i have to have three people then thats what i will do.im just shooting for sky,I will settle for a good 8 hours with little time waisted.the bearing imfo was valuable and the shaft imfo great, "i got it" :-/.I dont get the cutting of boards on the carriage :P.other than going back over something allready cut.(handling again)
Iwas thinking that to use a p.t.o. on tractor not a belt. yes, no.
v belt come again with more detail.as apossed to using a flat
belt. :-/

dr_pepper

I still didnt get a answer i was looking for on the wheels of the set works ,where to get them. ???the current imfo is valuable
but need more, ??? :P edgers can some one set me straight
on them,i work at two different mills,and im not impressed
with edgers,whats the next step up,on a edger.and not a vertical saw,im not interested in.not that they dont work,its more for an automatics."no". ???
for starters  i was going to just buy tie logs, ???from 12 to 18"
yes .no. ???when yu find a log thats not going to make as a tie,meaning some defect at that point how should you cut it
it might sound a little dumb that ???or if you cut it to "tie"and then find thats its not up to standard.what then. ???do the average.sharpen the blade every day ??? have some passed
the slab pile,meaning how to handle them with out a hugh pile
of what to do.with them other than burning them, ???
are there better saw blades than others brand,type,size and when do you have it hammered and how to fit,wich sides goes on first. ???

Tom

Perhaps knowing of this company will help
http://www.tms-sales.com/

I'm not impressed with their web-site but have used their paper publication for years.  You can sign up for it by clicking on the "Free Issues" link in the header of the site.

They are very sawmill oriented and sell many hard-to-find circle mill parts as well as advertise companies who deal in or manufacture those parts.

D._Frederick

Dr-,

If you are going to a power-takeoff system using a tractor for power, I would look for a left hand mill or you will need jack- shafts to get the saw rotation correct. (see MITCH for pictures of how he powers his mill)

For the set-works wheels, if they are not broken, a machine shop should be able to reshape them and sharpen the pawls.

Have you thought about going to a SKAG mill, your log size would work on this type mill. D & L Double Cut has this type mill that will cut a 1000bdft/hr and can be power take off driven.  The problem is that you need to do something with the side cuts on both of these mills. If you had a de-barker, you could grind them up and sell them for pulp.

You ask about putting boards back on the carriage, if you are going to salvage the side cuts and don't have an edger, you can make 4 sided boards by removing the bark on the main saw.

You asked about sharpening saw teeth, it depends on how dirty your logs are. If your logs have a lot of dirt, you will need to sharpen them  3 or 4 times a day with regular teeth if you plan to saw a 100 ties/day. If you use carbite teeth, you may get a days cutting.

If you plan on hiring help, you need a mill that is SAFE, I don't know if you can get liability insurance on these old mills, designed and build before OSHO

handsaw07


Dr.
I have an left hand american mill , it has a long shaft and its  1 7/16" . We built a mandrel to run off a power takeoff from a tractor about thirty years ago. Here are some pictures of the mandrel we built.  As you can see it hasn't had much use since we built our bandmill.

mitch


Ron Wenrich

Setworks wheel - inquire at Frickco.  They carry the part for manual setworks.  Here is the link:  http://www.bright.net/~albright/frickframe.html  You're going to have to make the call.

There are only 2 types of edgers.  Horizontal or vertical.  For a handmill, the only option is a horizontal mill.  You can always slab heavy and throw those boards in your slab pile.  But, there is a lot of money in those side cuts.  We used to sell ours straight to a casket company.  

Red oak prices are pretty good, especially for the lower grades to flooring plants.  You're going to have to do market research for your side cuts.  Its well worth the time.

I'm not sure how to set a mill up to run direct from a pto.  What would happen if you hang a saw while running direct?  On a belt drive, you would smoke your belts.  

Buying tie logs is OK as long as you can get enough of a supply.  Of course, when you scale those logs, it will take away from production time.  You could weight scale them and take a logger's word that they are tie quality.  

Those that don't make it should be cut into pallet cants.  I also cut the better quality logs down to pallet cants.  You'll have to check for these guys in your area.  They also buy low quality boards, but you get more if they are 1x4 or 1x6.  The edger pays for itself.  Cants can be 3 1/2 x 6 or 4 x 6 or 5 1/2 x 6.  Depends on what they need.

I sharpen my saw at least twice a day and I have a debarker.  Running without will cause you to sharpen about 4 times.  Depends on how much dirt you hit.  You might want to consider a mud saw.  Carbide teeth aren't worth it if metal is a problem in your area.

I've run both B and F pattern saws.  Good for hardwoods.  I have used Hoe, Payne and Simonds.  These saws run about $2K, new.  Shop around for a good used one.  I haven't found a great deal of difference between the makes.

Slabs can be a problem.  You can sell them as slabwood, but there is a definite lag in the summer.  There's also the mess.

You can chip them if you have a market for dirty chips.  Paper mills want barked chips, but OSB, particle board or co-gen operations can use the dirty chip.  

You can also put in a wood hog.  This will shred the slabs and the hogged material can be used as mulch, animal bedding or boiler fuel.  More market research.   :P
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Frickman

Alright, another circle mill! And a Frick to boot! I can't add alot to what Ron said, he was pretty thorough. The guys at Albright are great, they helped me out alot when I rebuilt my current mill. As I said in another thread, it sometimes pays to start with a mill in better shape. I know guys though that have a machine shop and enjoy a challenge, and love to tackle projects like you have. They get more satisfaction out of the process than the end result. Give a holler if you have any more questions.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

sjh

Dr-
Shoot me a e-mail. I have a old frick that is just about ready to run. I have lots of parts that I do not need. Maybe we can make a deal.
When you call frick sit down first. You will faint at there prices.I called about track and they want $500 for a 15' piece. The peaple were very helpful and easy to talk to.
Saw spec:
3 3/8" shaft
52 & 54" blade
Wood carrage & steel track.

smwwoody

The best way I have sen to run off of a tractor pto is to set up a jack shaft that is a direct connect to the pto shaft then link the jack shaft to the mandrel shaft via V-belts.  this gives you a slip point if you have any trouble.  and also an easy way to set the saw speed while keeping the tractor at its peek HP RPM.
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

dr_pepper

I want to thank everyone the imfo was exellent,brinkman
how do i find your email,right now im in transit,so im not able to be on board when i want,but iii try.

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