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Requesting advice on timber sale for my land

Started by stdout, February 26, 2014, 06:31:51 PM

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stdout

I have about 50 acres of mixed timber forest in Texas and have been approached by a harvester who wants to harvest my trees on a "pay as cut" basis. He's given me an agreement to read and sign and now I'm uncertain about what to do.

The forest has never been harvested as far as I can tell so I like the idea of getting something out of it, along with perhaps replanting pines immediately afterwards. But many areas of the forest I don't want cut lest it interfere with our privacy from the roads.

Does anyone have any pointers that I should consider before moving ahead on this? I'd love to hear your thoughts and will answer any questions you may have.

chain

Well, one rule is to know what you have before you cut. You may have some very valuable trees and could be your acreage just needs an 'improvement cut' or thinning, which  could be marked for harvest by a forester. I would seek professional advice.

And, welcome to the forum!

stdout

Thank you. There are definitely some really nice trees in my woods. When you say I need professional advice, what kind of professional would one turn to? Is the harvester himself not a professional?

Peter Drouin

Go see your county forester, he knows all the loggers and see what he has to say and it should not cost nothing. :)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

stdout

Thank you, Peter, I will do just that.

In Texas we have the Texas A&M Forest Service, which is what I think would be the Texas analog of a county forester. I know those guys so I'll stop in there this week and get some advice.

Thank you both.

Peter Drouin

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

mad murdock

X2 on getting a forester to chime in on the deal. Hope it goes well for you and the logger you contract to do the job.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

OneWithWood

The A&M guys will probably tell you this same thing.  Get a consultant forester.  He will be able to tell you what you have and what ought to be done to achieve the goals you set.  Based on your goals he/she will mark the timber, put the sale up for bid ( guarantees you the best price for what you have ) and will provide a contract that looks out for you and your land.
I find that getting full payment before a single tree is cut is the best avenue for all concerned.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Claybraker

+1 on getting a professional that represents your interests involved, especially if this was an unsolicited offer to harvest your timber.

A huge problem we NIPF's have, most of the time we really have no clue what our timber is worth.

DeepCreek

When I was looking at a piece of land that appeared to have a lot of marketable timber, I went online after reading my State Forestry Division's wise advice to seek professional guidance. I found a first class timber management company that handled everything including proper logging contracts for a fixed percentage of the receipts or a minimum fee.

Long story short, they came out at their own expense, looked at the property and the timber and advised me that it would be better to wait another twenty years before trying to harvest the timber and that I would probably realize little profit if it was cut at that time.

As a result, I decided against purchasing that particular property and kept on looking.

In contrast, some of my neighbors simply went with small logging outfits that generally paid pretty poorly and didn't do a proper clean up. The loggers made out, but my neighbors didn't get all that much, and they didn't have the protection of properly managed timber contracts.

clww

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, stdout and Deep Creek. :)
As others posted, talk with a professional forester before you make a deal with a professional logger.
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stdout

This is fantastic advice and exactly the kind of direction I was hoping to get.

I'll start looking for a professional forester consultant. So that I don't get the wrong direction: is there a directory somewhere where such people can be found? Or just the old fashioned yellow pages?

thenorthman

Yellow pages under forestry, or forest management, Some other things online but I'm not to positive about Texas.


Always be wary of anyone knocking on your door and offering money.  They may be reputable, or they could come in take only the valuable timber and leave you with a mess of broken scarred standing timber, and if they offered cash upfront, I guarantee they are making out like a bandit.

As tempted as I am of door knocking I have to tell myself that this is how I would be seen...

Otherwise get a forester or at the very least contact a couple few loggers and get a couple of bids.  With any luck you'll run across an honest logger that will tell you exactly what you have and what its worth and how much they need to remove it for.  Don't discount the folks that pay on percentage only, timber markets are volatile so a guy can't always count on paying what the timber is worth once it gets to the mill, so its a little safer to go with a percentage split, at least then both parties are getting paid something...

One other thing, if dude is door knocking it generally means they are desperate for the work, which could either mean they are hurting for money, or hurting for work, either way desperation causes people to make poor decisions, and cut corners that they would otherwise not cut.  I'm not saying that all who knock on doors are desperate, just that's the image portrayed.
well that didn't work

thecfarm

stdout,welcome to the forum. Whatever you do look at the past logger's work before doing any cutting. Cutting wood will change the looks of your woods. Go to his other sites and really walk the woods and talk to the land owners too. I have had people contact me. Remember it's YOUR woods,have it cut the way YOU want it cut. Some want some trees left for wildlife,some want a certain area not touched because it looks pretty and some as you said for privacy. I have flagged certain trees and areas with orange flagging so the logger that cuts for me would remember what I wanted. This is plastic ribbon that comes in many color,I used orange. Can even be brought at walmart in my area. I myself would be kinda critical of someone knocking on my door too. Any one that is good in thier business should be busy. Be it a Doctor,mechanic,dentist or a logger. But maybe he's working close by too. Take your time and check things out. It will be worth it to do it.
I've had someone say to me,If I knew it was going to look like that,I would of never had it cut. Yes,it was a small job,and I felt he did a good job. They just had no idea what to expect.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

rockwall

I totally agree with thecfarm! Ask around about the logger and definitely go see a couple of his job sites. He should be proud to show off the good forestry practices he uses, if he is really a professional. I stopped to see a young logger in my area yesterday. He was telling me about the harvest as we were standing in a very neat landing. Different species of logs and pulp were separated into neat piles, evidence he was trying to get the most out of the wood for himself and the landowner. It was also evident he was trying to make it as easy as possible for his trucker to come in, get a load and be off to the mill. A real team player! Then he said," You want to take a tour?" It was the end of the day,around 10 degrees, windy and he wanted to show me his good work. And it was really good forestry! I was really impressed!! It was great to see this fellow harvesting timber with an eye to the future.

chevytaHOE5674

Would you sell your car, house, wife's jewelry, etc to some guy who walked up to you off the street offering you cash without first knowing the value of such items? Most likely not. So why sell timber that way?

Another vote for finding a good consulting forester. Get a management plan together and plan a harvest if one is needed. Your forester will also be able to help you with how to handle the taxes from selling timber.

stdout

In my situation, he did contact me out of the blue (door knocking). My feet are officially ice cold over this project and I'm not going to move forward without the proper help of a forestry consultant. I feel like your advice here has made me dodge a huge bullet. I appreciate it very much!

Claybraker

I'm glad you've decided to be reasonable and do things my way.  8)

It wouldn't hurt to contact the extension foresters for a free looky at your timber, they may be able to provide you with some guidance, based on your objectives. Personally, I like to get as many opinions from as many sources as I can.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the idea of cutting some timber to raise a little cash, and in many cases you can improve the long term value of a stand if it's done correctly. As a fellow NIPF, timber sales aren't something we do very often so the deck is stacked against us.

Shotgun

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on February 27, 2014, 07:00:15 AM
Would you sell your car, house, wife's jewelry, etc to some guy who walked up to you off the street offering you cash without first knowing the value of such items? Most likely not. So why sell timber that way?



This is a very compelling response to this age-old question, Chevy.  This should be saved on the forum for further use, as we all know how often this question surfaces.  It quickly boils the question down to the most basic consideration.

Good one, Chevy.
Joined The Forestry Forum 5 days before 9/11.

Texas Ranger

I am a consulting forester in Texas.  It would help to know what part of Texas, and the stand composition.  All oak, all pine, a mix, etc.

There are any number of consultants that can handle your interest in the timber,  a fee is charged, different consultants charge different fees.  If you have a 1d1 timber exemption they can do a management plan for the property that will placate the Tax assessor.  Again, at a fee.

If  your land is within 30 miles or so radius of my town, I would be happy to take a quick, free, look to tell you the way I would go.

As in anything, your mileage may vary with any one giving  you advise, and free advise is at best, free.

Oh, and welcome to the forum.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

rockwall

I guess I need to be clear. My main point was there are professional loggers out there that would treat your forest like their own and they wouldn't need any supervision. They care about their reputation and want to do good work. Just because this guy stopped and asked about harvesting some wood doesn't mean anything about his quality of work. So don't feel you dodged a bullet, he could be the best around. A little research will determine whether you want him to work in your woods or not.

Texas Ranger

Here in Texas it is routine for loggers to send out blind requests to buy timber.  They buy a list from the appraisal district and mail out to anyone that may have acreage, particularly if they have a timber exemption, we call them 1d1's for the form used.

Anyone can buy that list, in the early on days of computer lists some of the worse thieves in Texas were buying lists, and offering a harvest. 

Most loggers tend to be reputable, most loggers that have a company contract don't buy lists.  Most, but not all.  It pays to do the research.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

thecfarm

I'm on that mailing list. I get one two a year. I have a logger I have used in the past, 3 times so far,and I like what he does. Nothing a matter with going the guy that knocks on door. Just make sure he does a good job first. Check his past work out.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Southside

Like the others said, get a forester and some advice.  You can also call to area mills and see what they pay landed at the mill for different species and grade, that would give you some idea how to evaluate and compare any offer a logger makes to you, this can be a double edged sword as sometimes landowners do not understand the capital and operating expense the logger faces in getting your wood to market.   Ask to see multiple other jobs the logger has done, if he does good work he will want to show you his work.  Ask the logger if he owns the equipment and employs the crew members or is he just brokering out jobs as that is getting more popular. 

Personally, I would never pay cash for a lot up front, I always pay on "shares" or "pay as cut".  That allows the landowner and the logger to work together to adjust a harvest as conditions or desires warrant.  Around here sealed bid timber sales are very common, landowners have been told it is the best way as they get a fat check up front, and then sometime over the next year the wood is cut off, the golden rule applies in those sales - ie he who has the gold makes the rules, does not work out the best for the landowner in my opinion.

One thing to keep in mind as you proceed is to truly understand the value of your timber, I know you said you have some very valuable trees, and they may very well be, but they may not have as much liquidity as you would like due to lack of close mills that buy that wood, lack of export market, etc.  There is an animated parody video out there of a landowner who wants to sell some "very valuable black walnut", it is a back and forth between the landowner and the logger, it is funny, but also can be very realistic. 

The guy who cold called on your door may be working another lot very close by and is looking for a close move when done, which is quite common, or like others said, may be desperate for work, just do your homework, and have a goal for what you want to do with your land post harvest.   

There are lots of guys on here with tons of experience so don't be bashful about asking questions.  Good Luck. 
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GATreeGrower

Along with what everyone else said, I'd brush up on Best Management Practices for loggers and landowners so you know how to avoid damaging your land and leave trees during cutting.  And welcome to the tree forum.

Raider Bill

Quote from: GATreeGrower on February 27, 2014, 02:58:38 PM
Along with what everyone else said, I'd brush up on Best Management Practices for loggers and landowners so you know how to avoid damaging your land and leave trees during cutting.  And welcome to the tree forum.

I looked on Amazon for that book but no luck.
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

Texas Ranger

Bill, BMP's come from the state forestry/environmental/what ever, department.  Free from their offices.  I have a couple for Texas, but, most recommendations will work, but each state is different.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

DeepCreek

Quote from: Texas Ranger on February 27, 2014, 03:41:58 PM
Bill, BMP's come from the state forestry/environmental/what ever, department.  Free from their offices.  I have a couple for Texas, but, most recommendations will work, but each state is different.

Universities and State and Federal Forestry offices frequently have oodles of free literature in the form of PDFs, including BMPs. Don't overlook freebies from neighboring state government or university sites, either. It's all valuable and already paid for with our tax dollars. 

I'm reading some now.   :P

BargeMonkey

 Personally, theres more crooked foresters than there are loggers up here, and the timber theft laws where changed in NY because of the guy just down the road, if this tells you something. Get comfortable with a forester, or a logger but realize that everyones making money and sometimes things arent going to be perfect. I buy ALOT of small woodlots and my work speaks for itself, unless the landowner wants to pay the forester from his own pocket.
I recently lost a woodlot to a larger logger once the forester got done with his "smooth" speach of how bigger is better and he might "make more"...  well, it was a lot with 80k foot of saw timber and 200 cord of firewood. There was an over run by quite a bit, wasnt just a little. The homeowner was paid the agreed price and that was it, I think he got screwed on 25k foot minimum. Before the job was done he asked about having a few tops pulled for wood, and the answer was.. "wasnt in the contract"...  lots of other things that didnt seem right. Just becareful when things sound to good, they usually are.

Texas Ranger

I like small loggers, older ones particularly.  They have been around long enough that they know they don't know it all.  Reputations stay around a long time, as do names, check out anyone that  you do business with for money.  Check their background, if you can get an official background check, get it.  Foresters depend on loggers on a job, just as we depend on planters, TSI companies, and mills. Foresters know the loggers, and I am sure the loggers are aware of the foresters.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

thecfarm

Not in the contract.  ::)   I had my logger bring some cedar right up to the mill for me,all limbed. This was only the cedar that was in the way.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

stdout

This is great information. I appreciate all the responses and I've learned a lot.

To the gentleman in Livingston who asked my location: I'm in Cherokee County a bit north of Rusk. I've got some leads on professional consultants nearby and will be making some calls.

This is a great group of people here. I'm so glad to have signed up and asked the question. I have other forest-related questions and will be posing them in a new thread later.

Texas Ranger

The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

stdout


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