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Detroit 3-53 block heater.

Started by Dave Shepard, February 11, 2014, 05:40:42 PM

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David-L

nice job been there, the info keeps pouring in.

                                    David l



 
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

Dave Shepard

I found the plate in the back of the head.  I was happy to see that it was as thick as it was, about 3/8". That should take a tapping pretty well. I didn't see it the last time I was up there due to the hood being in the way. I folded it up as far as it would go and then I could see right down in there.

Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Dave Shepard

Took the plate off the back of the head this morning and took it to one of my machinest friends. He popped a hole in it on the Bridgeport and tapped it for me. I have everything here to do it, except for heat in the garage, and  maybe the 45/64" drill bit. :D I eliminated about 4 feet of heater hose running all over the place and also plugged the port in the water pump. The heater is mounted on the right side of the engine, down low, and it runs up to the thermostat housing. Now the entire head will get hot and no 180° loop in the hose. I started the skidder up and ran it around in the field to get it up to temp and hopefully got all the air out. The hoses going to and returning from the new block heater were hot when I got back, so it must be circulating through there by itself. Going to be cold tomorrow, so that will be the test. 35° today and it started with just the slightest squirt of ether, something it wouldn't do until I pumped all the fuel out and put fresh winter fuel out of the farm tank in it.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Alcranb

Dave, you realize once you get this all hooked up running the predicted global warming we've all been threatened with will kick in.   :D
"Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do.  So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.  (Mark Twain)

Dave Shepard

Yeah, but I'll be ready for next year. :D I'm glad I can get it started at 20° now with ether, but I'd rather not have to if I can get the genset close enough to plug it in. First job I might be skidding through the woods from my neighbors, so I'll just plug it in at the farm.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Maine logger88

Quote from: Alcranb on February 15, 2014, 02:42:05 PM
Dave, you realize once you get this all hooked up running the predicted global warming we've all been threatened with will kick in.   :D
Haha I said the same thing to my father when I put the block heater in my 353 he said that would be a small price to pay for some warmer weather!
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

nhlogga

I have "spit swappers" on my Clark with a 353. By the time saws are sharpened, chokers hung, hot chocolate finished, it will start easily. Gotta let it idle a while longer so the tranny and hydraulics warm up in the cold. I despise starting fluid and hate to use it unless a last resort.
Jonsered 2260
Husky 562xp

Dave Shepard

I don't think the way I've got the routing of the hoses is working well. After an hour with the block heater running, I got the head really warm, it was up to 175 on the gauge, which is the high limit of the thermostatically controlled block heater. However, the coolant only flows through the head, not the block. I think I need to build a T to go in the lower coolant hose from the radiator and use that as a supply to the block heater. That way the hot coolant enters the back of the head and flows down through the block to the bottom front of the engine. I still had to use ether, but at 15° it did start quickly, once I gave it a very quick squirt. I'm hoping if I can get the coolant flow right that I won't have to use any ether at all.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

beenthere

Sounds like you are getting closer to a solution. You don't want the hot water to short circuit and take a shortcut back to the heater tank.
Having a cold return line is a good thing, as long as the cold water isn't coming from the radiator, but from a cold place in the block.
Good luck, and hope you find the right design.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

nhlogga

Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 16, 2014, 08:28:55 PM
I don't think the way I've got the routing of the hoses is working well. After an hour with the block heater running, I got the head really warm, it was up to 175 on the gauge, which is the high limit of the thermostatically controlled block heater. However, the coolant only flows through the head, not the block. I think I need to build a T to go in the lower coolant hose from the radiator and use that as a supply to the block heater. That way the hot coolant enters the back of the head and flows down through the block to the bottom front of the engine. I still had to use ether, but at 15° it did start quickly, once I gave it a very quick squirt. I'm hoping if I can get the coolant flow right that I won't have to use any ether at all.

I put one on a JD engine. Hooked one end on the head and the other end on the side of the block where the drain is. Took the petcok out and with a few adapters had a place to hook the hose up. The guy I work for told me to hook it up that way. Seems to work well.
Jonsered 2260
Husky 562xp

Dave Shepard

That's what I want to do, but haven't found anywhere down low on the block yet. The installation instructions show an available T that goes in the lower radiator hose. I'd have to make one. The hot coolant would go in the back of the head and the cold would come out the bottom of the engine at the lower radiator hose, so it wouldn't be circulating through the radiator. I am going to keep looking for a plug somewhere down low, before I make a T for the radiator hose. I could also take the cast iron elbow off that the lower hose hooks to and have that drilled and tapped as well. Once I get the coolant circulating through the entire engine, I think this thing should start like summer after a half an hour of heating.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Dave Shepard

After much consultation with Detroit gurus and a visitation with another 3-53 that had the same block heater, I have what I call The Other, Other Solution. :D On a friends 3-53, in a Yumbo excavator, he went in to the thermostat housing with the hot side of the block heater, then ran a hose under the engine to the bottom of the oil cooler. There was a petcock there and he replaced it with a pipe nipple. I discovered down under the side of the engine an oil cooler, albeit of a completely different design, with a petcock in the bottom of it. However, you can't actually see the petcock, it's more of a mechanicing by braille situation. ::) I think it's 1/4" pipe, and I have a 1/4" pipe nipple that came with the block heater spare parts kit. Hopefully, I can put a T with a close nipple in the bottom of the oil cooler, and put the petcock back in, and have the nipple for the block heater coming out the side of the T. This will be tomorrows adventure.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Reddog

I studied a old AC 3-53 manual the other night and the oil cooler petcock looked like the lowest point.
But I had no idea how yours was configured.

So from the oil cooler to the back of the head with the hot line should give a pretty good circulation.


Good luck on your Adventure!  ;D

thecfarm

Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Dave Shepard

I haven't found two 3-53 engines that are set up the same way yet. :D Yes, I'm hoping the hot coolant enters the back of the head, and then works it's way down to the front bottom of the engine. It's just going to be a trick working down inside the frame. Sometimes I think the engine and transmission should be on a skid that you just unhook the driveshaft and battery cable and lift it out of the frame and put it on the ground to work on. :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Dave Shepard

So, I have put The Other, Other Solution* into effect. The block heater now runs from the bottom of the oil cooler to the top of the head at the back of the head. I know have complete step by step installation instruction.

1. Like an Olympic athlete, you will need to warm up not only your body, but your mind as well. Working on the lower parts of a Detroit's anatomy is not for the faint of heart, or the mildly dextrous. To fully comprehend the arduousness of the procedure, I recommend removing the right rear wheel from the skidder, using only a railroad jack and a 1/2" drive socket set with the long handled breaker bar missing. Now, once you've got the wheel off, roll it up the nearest hill. Don't skip this step, you will regret it later when you realize you have not fully prepared yourself. Next, you will need to sharpen your dexterity. Defusing a high-explosive device in the dark with a pair of tweezers is risky, but exhilarating. ** You will also need to master removing bolts with only a thumb and one finger. But not a thumb and finger on the same hand. Get all the digits on the same page, you don't need to be in the middle of trying to put some 40 pound part on the engine and have your hands go all Hatfield and McCoy on you.

2. Now that you are properly warmed up, put the right rear tire back on and remove the left front, because it will serve no other purpose than to get in your way. Now, the whole exercise today is to remove a petcock from the bottom of the oil cooler and put a pipe fitting in there to supply your new block heater. Or should I say, your second new block heater, because you cooked the first one. Now, this little fitting likes to remain inconspicuous. Like BigFoot inconspicuous. No matter how many 3-53 engines you've looked at, nothing on your engine will look familiar. Yes, you finally found your oil cooler, but it wasn't in the same place as your buddy's oil cooler. You see, Detroit couldn't figure out where to put all the parts on your 3-53, so they gave you options. Lots of options. I found my oil cooler skulking around on the left front of the engine block, carefully hidden next to the frame rail. They can be skittish, so once you spot it, put a splash of red paint on it in case it moves on you while you are getting some wrenches. Now wedge whichever of your hands you prefer to have all scratched up down in that little crack between the oil cooler and the crankcase vent. Didn't fit, did it? Yeah, I forgot to tell you to take the crankcase vent off. Once that's out of the way try to remove the petcock from the bottom of the oil cooler. If you are lucky, you will accidentally open the petcock just a little bit, then the wings will strip off. You are now past the point of no return. You are fully committed to this project. You may also be committed later, but don't worry, they will haul you away in a nice, soft, rubber truck.

3. You've now realized that pulling the oil cooler and fixing this thing the way you wanted it is the only option that doesn't include an alias and a foreign passport. You would think that the next step would be to unbolt the oil cooler. No. You are wrong. Very wrong. You first must remove the solid pipe going from the water pump to the thermostat housing. You may think that is fairly simple, only two bolts and it pops right out. Well. It isn't. I can't sugar coat it. It only gets worse from here. After all, why did you think I had you do all those exercises? The upper bolt comes out like one of those toys you give a kid. You know the one. The big plastic bolt and nut with a hundred grand thread clearance that will still work even if it's cross threaded. The other one, not so much. This one will require you to place your left forefinger down between the valve cover and the pipe. You other hand will have to go in the side of the engine under the hood. You can use whichever of your thumbs or fingers on that hand that will reach. It is at this point that I'd like to discuss working conditions. By now, you should have most of the engine, your clothes and the ground covered in anti-freeze. If you have soaked the machine all the way to the operator's seat, you can take an extra 10 points. Now that you have threaded the lower bolt out until it hits the big bracket for lifting the engine out of the skidder, you should take a moment to count to ten, repeat a favorite mantra, or just quietly walk off into the woods never to be seen again. This pipe now just hangs out of the thermostat housing, wiggling suggestively. Will it help you later? I'm not sure. Maybe.

4. You've got to get the alternator belts off now. The adjuster bolt on the top is so close to the hood that you can't use a wrench on it. You either have to remove that side of the hood, or if you live in a town of over 5,000 people, borrow enough 3/8" extensions to loosen the bolt from the operator's seat.

5. Now that the belts are out of the way, you can remove the radiator hose going to the oil cooler. It's still where you left it, right? Good. You don't want to loose a half a day looking for that. Again! You now have all the hose clamps loose for all the hoses and pipes going to the water pump/oil cooler minor sub-assembly. I don't know if that's what it's really called, but the next few steps will make you really want to believe that what you are about to remove is really worth putting back on the engine. You can't remove any of the hoses without cutting them off. So, you must remove the oil cooler and slide it 1/2" astern. Oh, didn't I mention that you've started calling yourself Captain, and referring to the skidder as She? Well, you did. I can't help you there. Anyway, you've got to move the oil cooler back, down, then up and down again then pull as hard as you can and hope for the best. You now have a bouncing 40 pound baby oil cooler stuck between the engine and the frame rail. Now that the easy part is over, we can move to step 6.

6. Once you've gotten the oil cooler out from under the frame rail, you can now remove the petcock and screw in your choice of pipe fittings. Put your piece of hose on the fitting and tighten the clamp, you're never going to be this close again. Oh, by the way, how did you get the oil cooler out from under the frame rail? That part was a little blurry for me. So, you've got your pipe fittings in. You've sort of cleaned up the mating surfaces a little bit, and you've smeared so much Aviation form-a-gasket around you are in danger of being stuck to the skidder permanently. Now you start the joyous adventure of trying to stuff this contraption back into the crevice from whence it was dragged, and it couldn't seem simpler. You are wrong. Again. You just don't learn, do you? This would be a good time to recruit six of your worst enemies. You might think you want to use friends, but I found it was easier to skip that step, and go straight to enemies, you might need the friends later. Like when you want someone to visit you in your new padded room at the nut ranch. The first problem lies in the fact that you can't actually hold a 40 pound oil cooler up with one hand, engage all the hoses and pipes, while simultaneously executing an ice skating routine that would bring home the gold at Sochi. Did I forget to mention the ice? You should have the machine parked on a nice, smooth sheet of ice, no frozen slushy bits for traction. You should also have plenty of ice anywhere you might have to walk for tools. So, you now have the oil cooler propped up with whatever was around. A block of wood. A big chunk of ice. A barn cat. Whatever will stay still long enough to get just one DanG bolt started! You almost get one started, then the pipe going to the thermostat housing jumps out. Yeah. I know, leaving it dangling wasn't the greatest idea, but what are you going to do. This thing needs to run before the woods thaws out and you're pretty sure you are behind schedule.

7. Maybe you got it bolted down, maybe you didn't. Who cares? I can't remember. It's only a couple of bolts. Who's going to miss them? Now, the alternator needs to get bolted back in place. Yup, you unbolted the whole thing and threw it somewhere. It took a half an hour to find it, but that gave you time to count to a thousand. With the alternator back in, you have to install the block heater in it's new location. Block heater? That's why we're doing all this? I should have just waited until July. With the block heater installed, you can now put the coolant back in. Strangely, or maybe not so strangely, who can tell anymore, you only took two gallons of coolant out, but put four back in. Who are we to question the laws of physics? It went in the top, and didn't come out the bottom. Good enough.

8. Now, one of the most critical parts, is to run the engine up to temperature to make sure that there is coolant in the new block heater. Because they need coolant. Because they will look like a fire roasted marshmallow if you plug it in without coolant. You push the starter and it starts in seconds. It's is 50 degrees after all. Who needs a block heater?





*Anyone Remember Monty Python's The Other, Other Operation? :D
** Managed to spell exhilarating right on the first try. The ordeals of the afternoon are really having an effect. :o
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

rockwall

Thanks for the laughs! You inspired me to install a electric block heater in my 353. I certainly didn't have as much fun as you.

nhlogga

Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 22, 2014, 03:55:54 PM
So, I have put The Other, Other Solution* into effect. The block heater now runs from the bottom of the oil cooler to the top of the head at the back of the head. I know have complete step by step installation instruction.

1. Like an Olympic athlete, you will need to warm up not only your body, but your mind as well. Working on the lower parts of a Detroit's anatomy is not for the faint of heart, or the mildly dextrous. To fully comprehend the arduousness of the procedure, I recommend removing the right rear wheel from the skidder, using only a railroad jack and a 1/2" drive socket set with the long handled breaker bar missing. Now, once you've got the wheel off, roll it up the nearest hill. Don't skip this step, you will regret it later when you realize you have not fully prepared yourself. Next, you will need to sharpen your dexterity. Defusing a high-explosive device in the dark with a pair of tweezers is risky, but exhilarating. ** You will also need to master removing bolts with only a thumb and one finger. But not a thumb and finger on the same hand. Get all the digits on the same page, you don't need to be in the middle of trying to put some 40 pound part on the engine and have your hands go all Hatfield and McCoy on you.

2. Now that you are properly warmed up, put the right rear tire back on and remove the left front, because it will serve no other purpose than to get in your way. Now, the whole exercise today is to remove a petcock from the bottom of the oil cooler and put a pipe fitting in there to supply your new block heater. Or should I say, your second new block heater, because you cooked the first one. Now, this little fitting likes to remain inconspicuous. Like BigFoot inconspicuous. No matter how many 3-53 engines you've looked at, nothing on your engine will look familiar. Yes, you finally found your oil cooler, but it wasn't in the same place as your buddy's oil cooler. You see, Detroit couldn't figure out where to put all the parts on your 3-53, so they gave you options. Lots of options. I found my oil cooler skulking around on the left front of the engine block, carefully hidden next to the frame rail. They can be skittish, so once you spot it, put a splash of red paint on it in case it moves on you while you are getting some wrenches. Now wedge whichever of your hands you prefer to have all scratched up down in that little crack between the oil cooler and the crankcase vent. Didn't fit, did it? Yeah, I forgot to tell you to take the crankcase vent off. Once that's out of the way try to remove the petcock from the bottom of the oil cooler. If you are lucky, you will accidentally open the petcock just a little bit, then the wings will strip off. You are now past the point of no return. You are fully committed to this project. You may also be committed later, but don't worry, they will haul you away in a nice, soft, rubber truck.

3. You've now realized that pulling the oil cooler and fixing this thing the way you wanted it is the only option that doesn't include an alias and a foreign passport. You would think that the next step would be to unbolt the oil cooler. No. You are wrong. Very wrong. You first must remove the solid pipe going from the water pump to the thermostat housing. You may think that is fairly simple, only two bolts and it pops right out. Well. It isn't. I can't sugar coat it. It only gets worse from here. After all, why did you think I had you do all those exercises? The upper bolt comes out like one of those toys you give a kid. You know the one. The big plastic bolt and nut with a hundred grand thread clearance that will still work even if it's cross threaded. The other one, not so much. This one will require you to place your left forefinger down between the valve cover and the pipe. You other hand will have to go in the side of the engine under the hood. You can use whichever of your thumbs or fingers on that hand that will reach. It is at this point that I'd like to discuss working conditions. By now, you should have most of the engine, your clothes and the ground covered in anti-freeze. If you have soaked the machine all the way to the operator's seat, you can take an extra 10 points. Now that you have threaded the lower bolt out until it hits the big bracket for lifting the engine out of the skidder, you should take a moment to count to ten, repeat a favorite mantra, or just quietly walk off into the woods never to be seen again. This pipe now just hangs out of the thermostat housing, wiggling suggestively. Will it help you later? I'm not sure. Maybe.

4. You've got to get the alternator belts off now. The adjuster bolt on the top is so close to the hood that you can't use a wrench on it. You either have to remove that side of the hood, or if you live in a town of over 5,000 people, borrow enough 3/8" extensions to loosen the bolt from the operator's seat.

5. Now that the belts are out of the way, you can remove the radiator hose going to the oil cooler. It's still where you left it, right? Good. You don't want to loose a half a day looking for that. Again! You now have all the hose clamps loose for all the hoses and pipes going to the water pump/oil cooler minor sub-assembly. I don't know if that's what it's really called, but the next few steps will make you really want to believe that what you are about to remove is really worth putting back on the engine. You can't remove any of the hoses without cutting them off. So, you must remove the oil cooler and slide it 1/2" astern. Oh, didn't I mention that you've started calling yourself Captain, and referring to the skidder as She? Well, you did. I can't help you there. Anyway, you've got to move the oil cooler back, down, then up and down again then pull as hard as you can and hope for the best. You now have a bouncing 40 pound baby oil cooler stuck between the engine and the frame rail. Now that the easy part is over, we can move to step 6.

6. Once you've gotten the oil cooler out from under the frame rail, you can now remove the petcock and screw in your choice of pipe fittings. Put your piece of hose on the fitting and tighten the clamp, you're never going to be this close again. Oh, by the way, how did you get the oil cooler out from under the frame rail? That part was a little blurry for me. So, you've got your pipe fittings in. You've sort of cleaned up the mating surfaces a little bit, and you've smeared so much Aviation form-a-gasket around you are in danger of being stuck to the skidder permanently. Now you start the joyous adventure of trying to stuff this contraption back into the crevice from whence it was dragged, and it couldn't seem simpler. You are wrong. Again. You just don't learn, do you? This would be a good time to recruit six of your worst enemies. You might think you want to use friends, but I found it was easier to skip that step, and go straight to enemies, you might need the friends later. Like when you want someone to visit you in your new padded room at the nut ranch. The first problem lies in the fact that you can't actually hold a 40 pound oil cooler up with one hand, engage all the hoses and pipes, while simultaneously executing an ice skating routine that would bring home the gold at Sochi. Did I forget to mention the ice? You should have the machine parked on a nice, smooth sheet of ice, no frozen slushy bits for traction. You should also have plenty of ice anywhere you might have to walk for tools. So, you now have the oil cooler propped up with whatever was around. A block of wood. A big chunk of ice. A barn cat. Whatever will stay still long enough to get just one DanG bolt started! You almost get one started, then the pipe going to the thermostat housing jumps out. Yeah. I know, leaving it dangling wasn't the greatest idea, but what are you going to do. This thing needs to run before the woods thaws out and you're pretty sure you are behind schedule.

7. Maybe you got it bolted down, maybe you didn't. Who cares? I can't remember. It's only a couple of bolts. Who's going to miss them? Now, the alternator needs to get bolted back in place. Yup, you unbolted the whole thing and threw it somewhere. It took a half an hour to find it, but that gave you time to count to a thousand. With the alternator back in, you have to install the block heater in it's new location. Block heater? That's why we're doing all this? I should have just waited until July. With the block heater installed, you can now put the coolant back in. Strangely, or maybe not so strangely, who can tell anymore, you only took two gallons of coolant out, but put four back in. Who are we to question the laws of physics? It went in the top, and didn't come out the bottom. Good enough.

8. Now, one of the most critical parts, is to run the engine up to temperature to make sure that there is coolant in the new block heater. Because they need coolant. Because they will look like a fire roasted marshmallow if you plug it in without coolant. You push the starter and it starts in seconds. It's is 50 degrees after all. Who needs a block heater?





*Anyone Remember Monty Python's The Other, Other Operation? :D
** Managed to spell exhilarating right on the first try. The ordeals of the afternoon are really having an effect. :o

This is one of the best posts I have ever read. My wife read it and she totally understood and found it humorus as well because she would have been right beside me helping with a project like this. Glad you got it all together.
Jonsered 2260
Husky 562xp

Ed_K

Great story  :D ,you've made me happy i own a taylor with a 4-53  ;D
Ed K

thecfarm

Play by Play.  ;D Going down into the single numbers here next week, Tuesday,wed,thurs. You could always go out and start it at 2am. have any close neighbors?? :o
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Alcranb

OMG! That was hysterical!
I like everyone else, I'm sure, has had it with winter but for your sake and the folks at the funny farm I hope we get a day or two of frigid weather so you get to make sure all is well with your "Other, Other Solution".
Btw, my wife read it and even though she didn't completely understand it she laughed like crazy. She said "I can see you doing that". I'm not sure that was a compliment or insult  :D
"Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do.  So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.  (Mark Twain)

Maine logger88

Hahaha the barn cat comment got me laughing so hard my friends thought I should be admitted to the funny farm! I am glad you got it put back together though!
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

Coon

Captain Shepard I think we have a problem.   :D   :D  You forgot to mention what your new lady friends name is...  :D   Glad to hear the labotomy went successful.   :D  ;D  :D
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

Dave Shepard

Her name's Myrtle, but I didn't name her, the guys who put the axles back in it last winter did.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

bushmechanic

 Welcome to the wonderful world of mechanics, but Dave I think you may have missed your calling. Thanks for the laugh.

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