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Much needed help/info needed-230TJ

Started by riverlogger, February 10, 2014, 11:34:11 PM

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riverlogger

Well here I am again needing info and knowledge on several aspects of my new old workhorse. I got my 230 home yesterday evening and started tinkering with her today. I was told that the engine must be rebuilt before even trying to skid wood by the previous owner but since she hasn't been fired since 2004 and he couldn't answer any real questions with an answer beyond "The best I remember it did" I decided to give starting her up a shot. First thing I did was check all the wiring and found it to be in ruins. I did my best to insure there would be no electrical fire and put a hot battery in. as soon as I shorted it at the starter she turned over and actually built oil pressure and sounded smooth enough. We checked the fuel filters and they where dry as a bone due to the fuel line being removed and plugged. Recalling a conversation with the previous owner he had told me that he had tried to start the machine about 2 years ago and it wouldn't fire off. I am assuming he took the line apart and checked it or whatever and now its just another in the checklist to figure out in the big puzzle. Here's all we accomplished today "Killed the starter". We thought that if the engine had any life left at all a good shot of either would bring it to a good roar for a second. WRONG! However after only about 30-45 total seconds of winding the starter gave up. It wasn't even hot to the touch but she wont say nothing now. After this I just started really checking every inch of the old Detroit out since I haven't been around one for years. In looking if over I think I may have found the culprit of the engine not starting. I had noticed that on the dash of the machine it has the kill pull cable on the far left of the dash and on the right side is a hole where another cable/switch was once located and it says that it was the "EMERGENCY STOP". I found a "mouse trap" looking switch on the left side of the engine at the blower housing that no longer has a cable running to it but once did and once it is pulled it must be manually reset by hand. Is this the emergency stop?

Nemologger

Yes, It tips a plate in the air box shutting off the air.
Clean and Sober

David-L

If you end up having to get a starter, there was a thread on here not long ago about Masco marine application gear reduction starters. They have one for the 353 Detroit and should spin it quicker.  Minus two here and I will be using a battery jump pack, 1500 watt tile heater for filters and starter warm up, 1000watt block heater for 45 minutes and then she should run. Cold weather sucks unless your a penguin. keep us posted, looks like you have a great project.
                                             David l
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

logman81

Welcome to the timberjack family. Make sure to replace the cable on the emergency cut off. You can also do a basic compression test on it by checking how much blow by you have coming out of the crankcase breather tube. I just a 230tj myself, I've been going through mine as well and learning a lot thankfully I have all the manuals!
Precision Firewood & Logging

Bert

Since it hasn't ran in awhile might want to pull the valve cover and check for stuck injectors. If it does fire, theres a chance it could be stuck wide open. I've seen this happen a few times on detroits that sat. If you can work them back in forth a few times you should be good to go.
Saw you tomorrow!

Woodboogah

How about some pictures!!!!  Sounds like a fun project.  -2 here as well.  I am just leaving now.  Short day I guess. 
Keenan Logging & Tree Care, LLC

Stephen Alford

  If it is a 353,and its any help, the last time I had the starter off had a terrible time with the bolt between it and the motor. Cut the end off a socket and welded it to an old extension. Put some gasket maker goo inside socket so not to lose it.   :)

 
logon

thecfarm

Nice canes, getting ready for Old Age??  :D  Or sell them?
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Stephen Alford

    :D :D no no no no no yes. Usually they go as gifties.  Just something I do on storm days,that and handles.  When I walk a woodlot its done with stick in hand.  A man has to poke what a man has to poke, best to use a stick.  ;D  Have encountered a lot of farm dogs over the years. Mind you they are just doing as they should and I mean them no harm.  Have not meet a dog yet that does not recognize a whittle stick. Now to quote an "ol timer" from the great state of main "back to our regular programing".   :D
 

 
logon


logman81

Precision Firewood & Logging

thecfarm

Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

logman81

I see it has the eaton axles, that's a good thing.
Precision Firewood & Logging

bushmechanic

 Hey stephen I love the wrench you made for the starter bolts but you know that it's not the wrench is the problem but it's the bolts that hold on the starter on. The proper starter bolts are twelve point heads and a 9/16 socket or wrench fits them. The problem is guy's chuck the right bolts and substitute them with hex head ones and then you have to make a wrench to fit it then, ahh well.

David-L

Mine has 12 point and the bottom one is still no fun.

                                                      David l
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

riverlogger




riverlogger

Well heres some more pics of my problems that I could use some help/advice with. Were in an ice storm here in North Ga so the ice makes some of the minute parts harder to see. If you could please tell me about the hoses and what psi they should have at the winch. The previous owner had removed and plugged off the one that goes under the winch. Also there is a lever that you can se in the pic that is just in front of the transfer case that has no cable running to it. What does that lever do?  On a less serious note why is my skidders but plate smaller than all the other 230's ive looked at? Thanks again for all of yalls help.

beenthere

riverlogger
Good on the pics... although a couple are a bit blurry. Maybe a cell phone job? 

A big help, and easy to do, is for you to go to those posts and click on the "modify" button. The post will open and you can add words and some description above each of the pics to describe what we are seeing.  Nice to see the description of a pic right there while looking at it. At least for me. ;)

Also can edit out the duplicate pic by highlighting that url and deleting it.

Before clicking on "Post", do a "Preview" and you will see just what your post will look like and be able to easily make any desired corrections.

Thanks for posting them. Hope the forum can sort out what is going on and giving you some help correcting  those points you raised. A pressure gauge to tie into some of those lines might be helpful to sort them out.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Neilo

For that age machine, the winch brake and clutch should have 550psi. Earlier D series machines had 450psi relief valves and I am unsure when they decided to increase to 550psi. I don't think there was a design change to the winch at the same time.

(Early TJs (pre '65) also ran 550psi but this was with a different ratio worm drive)

The psi of the relief valves are stamped in the winch valve bank at the top and bottom, so see what you have.

I am guessing that the clutch will leak badly given they have capped the line. You are going to have to pull it apart to see what is going on inside that right side of the winch.

The lever near the transfer doesn't look standard. Don't know what it is for?

Neilo


danabg

I think that lever might be to put the winch in and out of gear,I think we had an older jack that had that lever one time.

David-L

Looks like a E series Jack. Any chance an older style transfer case was put in at some point that you can take the winch drive out of gear for the long skids which saves the winch driveline. Never had a transfer like that but have seen them on some machines I have looked at.

                                     David l

                                                                     
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

240b

Cant really tell from pic but the pto lever should be on the back ot the transfer case.. I dont see it. the thing which looks like a lever is on the front side.  it could be a front axle disconnect, which was an option from the fractory. the  only machines Ive seen with the larger hydraulic chin tank are 240's 

David-L

The hyd tank looks like that of a 240,  I cant' remember where but saw a 230 Super E with that same tank. And yes the winch disconnect was on the back of the transfer on the machines I have looked at in the past. Suppose you could order these with certain specs. my 1978 225 has a roof can muffler and bigger eaton axles and planetaries than what they normally came with a standard 225. Curious about that lever?

                              David l
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

Maine logger88

My 79 225 has the shutoff on the transfer but like you say it could have been ordered like that or it may be a older transfer
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

riverlogger

Thanks for the info guy's. I'm going to attempt some better pics today. Out of curiosity what is the wheel base length of a 230?

bushmechanic

Well just looking at that last pic of your machine and I would guess that you have a 240 with a 353 engine in it. That front looks awful long for it to be a 230. The line is supposed to be for your winch clutch and as Neilo said it was probally pouring oil out so they capped it. Your going to have to get that clutch cylinder rebuilt to get that winch pulling again. Nice machine you have there I'm jealous! I don't think your going to be able to run chains on the back, awful close those tires are to the butt plate.

riverlogger

Hey guys if you haven't noticed by now I am absolutely lost on this tj.  That being said I am at ground zero on this new found baby of mine.  There are no companies here in the south that I know of that services anything below a 240tj. I have been told by some of you on here that a company named "swintons" I think carried tj parts. I need to order a rebuild kit for the winch since im going to pull it anyway to inspect everything and its obvious it probably has some issues as you pointed out what with the hyd line being capped off. If you guys could please direct me to the best place to order the parts I will be needing ie: clutch packs, seals, shims and whatever else is a given when you take a winch apart. Thank you all for the help.

riverlogger

Hey bushmechanic I just posted again as you was leaving the reply. I was looking today and noticed that as compared to my friends 208 (which supposedly has the exact same frame) there is a whole lot of space between the front of my engine and the radiator. I honestly believe that I could squeeze a 6bt cummins in that frame.

Maine logger88

I get all my tj parts from Harrolds logging here in Maine they have about anything that you would ever need I can pm you there number if you like
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

riverlogger

 

 
Also it seems that even though shes a powershift there is less space in the leg area than the ones with the straight shift. Im a big guy and man im gonna have to do some manufacturing in the cabin. Im looking at rearranging the seat and sitting sideways in the cab like on the later model machines just to open up more leg area.

riverlogger

MaineLogger Yes please pm me with that info and thanks a million for the help.

bushmechanic

Hey riverlogger if it was me I would remove the winch and disassemble it first then see what you exactly need cause those parts can get pricey. Don't worry about being lost because there's a great bunch of guy's on here and are only too glad to help. I think that's a 240 myself.

riverlogger

Thanks bushmechanic. I will say that I have never seen a site like this where the members all pitch in and assist each other. I was a forest ranger/wildland firefighter with the Georgia Forestry Commission years ago and my friends and I would sit and discuss things at work just like you  guys do on here. Makes you feel good and proud to know that there are still good people in the world that enjoy helping each other.
p.s. you think it has anything to do with the forest connection ;)

David-L

parts are available in VT also, just about anything you want for the machine. The shop i am talking about does the 200 series exclusively. you can PM me and get the # if you wish. bushmechanic, is that bigger hyd tank 240 specific or did that show up on some of the 230 super E also.

                            David l
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

bushmechanic

I think your on to something about the woods connection....... Anyway I was looking over that pic of the mystery lever. that's a E model timberjack so I would say that that is the lever that operates the manual hand brake. Looks like the cable that operates it is missing. Check the operators cab and see if there is a handbrake lever in there. The Eaton transfer case that we had in the 230D forwarders had a double brake on them one on each end and on the lowest shaft of the case. The front one had the handbrake on it and it was lever operated. Not sure David-L about the tank.   

riverlogger

Thanks bushmechanic. It does have a handbrake in the cab. Its actually lying behind the seat mounted to some part of the transmission/battery cover I believe. Also the mico brake is missing from the dash in the control panel. (assuming this year model had the mico brake lock on it)

Maine logger88

If it has the hand break it shouldn't have a mico lock which is a good thing IMO.
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

riverlogger

Guy's I'm a Cummins fan. Give me the pros and cons of putting a 4bt from a bread truck in place of the 353.

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