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Is a big tree an old tree?

Started by Phorester, February 10, 2014, 12:03:22 PM

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Ranger McGregor

Personally i would be one to suggest that the diameter of a tree is not an indicator of age instead height is a better indicator for a number of species.

SwampDonkey

Height and age both depend on growing conditions such as site and light intensity and competition for minerals. If you have a real dense stand it will affect height, over time you will see certain trees express dominance in that thicket and grow over the top of others. All even aged, but different height between the less fortunate ones and those that got a little edge. Those site index curves look at the trees with an edge and exaggerates things for untreated sites where no silviculture is applied. Just up the road here is a good example, where on the edge of the stand near the road the spruce grow tall with good crowns and nice diameter. In the interior of the stand the spruce is suppressed junk under 70 foot tall aspen. Those spruce are the same age growing on abandoned field.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ranger McGregor

Yes absolutely SwampDonkey, i dont think either  are accurate, but if you were going to use a dimension i would choose height to say its young or old, while its innacurate it is a better indicator.

mesquite buckeye

Welcome Ranger McGregor. ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) :snowball:

Stick around for more fun. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Ranger McGregor on March 05, 2014, 01:04:31 PM
Yes absolutely SwampDonkey, i dont think either  are accurate, but if you were going to use a dimension i would choose height to say its young or old, while its innacurate it is a better indicator.

I understand the premise. But the data presented in those site index curves is normalized. We have site classification that was a very rushed compilation with huge gaps  and concentrates mostly on lumber producing softwoods. I think more effort was put into correlating ground veg and soil with site than was put into gathering tree data. Yet we have decades of growth and yield data for every species in PSP plots on corwn land and private woodlots. I could never quite get it. It has never been completed in my opinion and never been updated. I think rarely used unless academic. I bet you couldn't even get a personal copy these days. Quite frankly, I think a bunch of misfits from Kingclear through it together. Ok, I said too much already. :) I was also going to say, that if their soil sampling was anything like what they provided in Lincoln at the Ag centre, they were not of much value. My dad was a potato farmer and had to send samples to Ontario to get accurate results. We had a couple areas of a field that were not performing up to snuff and they didn't detect anything out of Lincoln. When we sent the soil samples to Ontario, we solved it. Might be why they closed up the soils lab last year. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ranger McGregor

Ouu very good. My forestry senses are tingling ;) Soil type, quality and drainage are the #1 driving force for tree growth. In the absence of disturbance trees are going to be suppressed. Absolutely. Very interesting you mentioned kingsclear.. Haha. Anyways thats for another day  another time. Its very interesting that there hasnt been a whole lot of work with correlations between site and trees (beside species that feed the lumber, and pulp&paper industry), however were taught a basic general list of site indicators in ground vegetation and not of the tree species. That confuses me greatly. Alot of knowledge of site vs. species is self obtained for me (like EWP and most other pines perform well in sandy soils) and it seems like not a whole lot of worthy experimentation or information is available for the tree species or not that i have seen yet without digging through scientific research articles.

It would be nice to see a detailed and updated list that correlates eco site to species of trees. I totally agree there SwampDonkey.

Okrafarmer

Welcome, Ranger McGregor! Where do you hail from? Scotland?  ;D More likely this side of the pond. Good to have you on board (hee hee), we have more fun around here than you can shake a stick at.  :D
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

SwampDonkey

Okra, he's just another one of those Canadian Maritimers. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Ranger McGregor on March 05, 2014, 07:04:15 PM
Very interesting you mentioned kingsclear.. Haha. Anyways thats for another day  another time.

When I look at the authors of the site class manual, I see names of individuals whose titles and positions have changed several times within DNR, many out of the seed centre in Kinsclear. I'm sure they are bright people, but some of them I question credentials. ;)

Their delineations of regions is a bit shotty to. The soils in Deersdale are different than those here in northern Carleton county and western Victoria county as well as Williamsburgh giving more variety of trees and better growing ground period. Yet they are mapped as one. You cannot farm boulder fields. In Carleton county we might have 6 spruce/sphagnum bogs, all under 5 acres. Our traditional swamps up here are cedar swamps, way more productive than a muskeg/moss covered bog. The bedrock is more calcareous and not sandstone. :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ranger McGregor

Quote from: Okrafarmer on March 06, 2014, 12:43:54 AM
Welcome, Ranger McGregor! Where do you hail from? Scotland?  ;D More likely this side of the pond. Good to have you on board (hee hee), we have more fun around here than you can shake a stick at.  :D
Thanks, i come from the good side of the pond my friend ;)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on March 06, 2014, 04:16:01 AM
Okra, he's just another one of those Canadian Maritimers. ;D
Only the best forestry professionals come from the maritimes, thats the story i heard and im sticking to it ;D

Okrafarmer

I'm sure you'll find at least one person here who will promptly reinforce that assertion!  :D
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

mesquite buckeye

Quote from: SwampDonkey on March 06, 2014, 04:16:01 AM
Okra, he's just another one of those Canadian Maritimers. ;D

That's ok. We'll still talk to him. ;D 8) 8) 8) :snowball:
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Magicman

Hello Ranger McGregor, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum.   8)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Banjo picker

 

 

I carved those initals in that beech 40 years ago in 1974.  The pic was taken a few years ago, but the tree still would not make a decent log....it has not grown much at all in 40 years.  Banjo
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Okrafarmer

Probably because somebody carved the bark!  :-X
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Magicman

Quote from: Banjo picker on March 06, 2014, 10:00:09 PMit has not grown much at all in 40 years.  Banjo 
But that old Beech still holds the memories.   smiley_love
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

SwampDonkey

There is a maple grove near here when my cousin taps and we have some young families near here who began doing some tapping to. And we got to talking last spring about the size of maples for tapping. And I pointed to that grove from their house and let them know, that when I was 6 or 7 and playing in that grove of maples, it was some 40 years ago and them maples are not much bigger now than they was. If you cut one and counted the rings, I bet you could barely distinguish each one from another. But they live a mighty long time to. Takes a long time to reach 40 some inches, oh at least 300 years. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

thecfarm

There was another thread about thinning. I mentioned I have a place I have been thinking of thinning. I have started on it. It's in view of the house and next to the woods road. I've been cutting the tree right next to the woods road. One of my friends came by and I told him I have been walking by those trees for more than 40 years and I don't think they have grown much at all. These are all hardwood trees.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Filson

Man, I just posted my newbie question about my new woodlot and getting the trees to grow bigger. I never realized how drastic growth difference can be, depending on the available light and nutrients. I realized it was a factor, buy holy smokes.  :o

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