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Is a big tree an old tree?

Started by Phorester, February 10, 2014, 12:03:22 PM

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Phorester


Been several discussions on this over the years, so I thought I'd open the can of worms again.  ;D

Tree diameter is based mostly on the growing space the tree has had throughout its life,and only loosely on its age. Just because a tree is twice the diameter of another a few feet away doesn't mean that the large tree is twice as old.  It means that the large tree had more growing space, and thus outgrew its neighbors in the same amount of time.  Whoever gets the most sunlight wins.



Tree on the left is a white oak, greatly suppressed throughout its young life. In fact, it is already developing a hole in the middle and mineral stain from poor soil and extreme competition. It was on the edge of a pocket of thick saplings within a mature forest.  Tree on the right is a loblolly pine, plantation grown on good soils, planted at a proper spacing. It was cut during the first commercial thinning operation to give its better quality neighbors even more growing space so they would grow faster.

Both trees were 23 years old when cut.




Magicman

I remember sawing that log on the left.  It had much stress and had to be flipped 180° after each pass.   :-\

Seriously, fast growing trees like that can cause heartburn when you are sawing.  They also produce very low quality lumber.
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It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

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Ianab

This board is from a self seeded backyard eucalyptus tree I removed for a friend. Hard to see the growth rings, but it was about 10 years old. I didn't expect it to be of any use, and just free handed a couple of slabs of it to see what would happen. I actually dried perfectly.  :o I just put it under the mill to true it up after it had dried.  This is a hardwood, comparable to oak, that's grown that fast.


Found this old pic of the stump. That's a 28" bar on the Dolmar.


Then there is my Rimu tree down in the back garden.
Also 10 years old, and about 2" DBH.  :D

This is actually pretty good growth for a rimu. Give it another 190 years and it might amount to something  :D

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

BuckeyeAaron

This is always an interesting topic for thought and discussion.  I think you make a valid point - diameter growth is directly linked to available nutrients and sunlight.  However, your comparative example is on the extreme.  Comparing White Oak to Loblolly Pine isn't apples to apples.  I would propose that if each tree had ideal growing conditions, the pine would still "outgrow" the White Oak due to species genetics (up to a certain point).  White Oak is a slow growing species even when compared to species within it's own genus.  I think a better example would be to compare two White Oak within two different growing conditions to really see what effect site has.  Or compare two Loblolly Pines.  Either way you are eliminating a variable and solidifying your position.  But I suppose your illustration would serve general public very well as most people don't know the difference between tree species so educating them that diameter size doesn't necessarily correlate to tree age would be well received.
If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 

Psalms 139, 9-10.

Magicman

This cookie is from the trunk of an ERC that was well over 75 years old.


 
I just quit counting at 75.   ;D
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It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

scsmith42

Here is a close up of a cross section of an old growth bald cypress that came from the swamps outside of Conway, SC.



 

88 growth rings per inch and the log was almost 37" in diameter!

Here is the entire log cross section:



 
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beenthere

Had some 20" dbh Alaska Yellow cedar that had over 900 rings when counted.

Have a disk from a redwood about 35" diam with 784 growth rings.

Trees are amazing.

Have heard tell of Black spruce in central WI swamps that are around 2"-3" diam with well over 300 growth rings counted.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

thecfarm

I always like to tell the story of the 3 foot pine that I cut with my Father. There was a smaller,about 18 inch tree that grew close to it.The plan was to leave the small one. The limbs from the big tree got the small one anyways. As I was cutting up the small one,I noticed the close growth ring.I think that 18 inch tree was as old as the 3 foot one. Suppress growth
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Mark Wentzell

I've heard of stunted cedar that grow on cliff faces in southern ontario that can be 500 years old and barely 2" in diameter. I think the oldest ever found was 1100 years old.

We have balsam fir up here that will live for 50 years in the shade of the overstory and never get taller than chest height.

Magicman

The cookie in my picture above came from an ERC tree that was growing from one of the columns of the Windsor Ruins in Port Gibson, Ms.


 
A company was hired to remove the trees whose roots were damaging the column tops.  I was able to get one of the larger trees seen growing from the columns.   ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

KBforester

 

I cut this Balsam Fir a couple of weeks ago. The last ten years of growth, it added nearly 6". The first 60 years of life only gave it 5" Nice example of why active management works. 
Trees are good.

clww

I cut a Gum Tree (MM's favorite! ;)) today that was between 50 and 60 years old. The trunk was 38" in diameter at 8" above ground level.
From this same general area, I cut a cherry tree that had 45 rings, yet was only 7" in diameter nearly level with the ground.
Size does not always prove a good indicator of age.
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SwampDonkey

Like Mark and KBforester both said about balsam fir. That tree is a real trickster, for lack of a better word. It can be 50 years old and barely 2" and 4 feet tall or 20" at breast height and 68 feet tall. Last winter the neighbors cut 20" dbh fir (chalk white) that was 45-50 years old on the stump on any I had seen laid out in their yard. I've thinned 50 year old fir that was 4" on the stump, and rotten in the centre with lichens all over the branches. Old rotten junk.  It most often regenerates while the old growth fir was beginning to fall down in a red spruce dominant stand. The red spruce can live centuries, the fir dead before the first C. But of course fir grows up here in most landscapes and stand types. Bogs, hardwood ridges, cedar swamps, red maple-aspen stands...etc. Good fir needs good growing ground to start with and needs space. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mesquite buckeye

Quote from: Magicman on February 10, 2014, 03:38:38 PM
This cookie is from the trunk of an ERC that was well over 75 years old.


 
I just quit counting at 75.   ;D

Mine grow faster that that if I do my job right. ;D 8) 8) 8)
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Magicman

Quote from: clww on February 10, 2014, 06:53:45 PMI cut a Gum Tree (MM's favorite! ;)) today that was between 50 and 60 years old. The trunk was 38" in diameter 
A Sweetgum that size can make some really pretty lumber.  I have seen it used as wall paneling as well as board and batten siding.  It saws about like Poplar.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Phorester

"Comparing white oak to loblolly pine isn't comparing apples to apples".

Correct, Buckeye. But I'm not comparing oak to pine, I'm comparing age to size. I use these two "beaver biscuits" in talks to illustrate that tree size is not very well related to age. I do point out that they are different species, and that the white oak as a species grows slower than loblolly pine, but point out that this is not the reason for the vast difference in sizes at the same age.  I chose these two biscuits because they are the exact same age, and can illustrate that point without bringing in "but they are different ages so that's why they're different sizes" into the discussion. 

I first cut the loblolly pine biscuit off a stump in a pulpwood thinning operation to show how to count growth rings to determine tree age and to show how trees slow in growth and need to be thinned. The thick dark rings show up really well in front of groups.  A few years later, I was resting against a tree eating lunch while mopping up on a forest fire, looked down at the little oak stump, casually counted the rings and was surprised that it was the exact age as my pine biscuit.  Hmmmmmmmmm, says I.........I think I can use a biscuit from this.....   ;D.  And a visual aid was born.........

I could use 2 biscuits from the same species close in age, if I could find them. But these being the exact same age, I thought they would better bring home the point I was trying to make.  I haven't been able to find two trees of the same species that are the exact same age but vastly different diameters that I could cut biscuits from. The "extreme" of these two help make my point.

Phorester

Quote from: Magicman on February 10, 2014, 02:49:48 PM
I remember sawing that log on the left.  It had much stress and had to be flipped 180° after each pass.   :-\

"Now that there's funny I don't care who yuh are". Larry the cable guy.

BuckeyeAaron

Quote from: Phorester on February 10, 2014, 09:52:10 PM
"Comparing white oak to loblolly pine isn't comparing apples to apples".

Correct, Buckeye. But I'm not comparing oak to pine, I'm comparing age to size. I use these two "beaver biscuits" in talks to illustrate that tree size is not very well related to age. I do point out that they are different species, and that the white oak as a species grows slower than loblolly pine, but point out that this is not the reason for the vast difference in sizes at the same age.  I chose these two biscuits because they are the exact same age, and can illustrate that point without bringing in "but they are different ages so that's why they're different sizes" into the discussion. 

I first cut the loblolly pine biscuit off a stump in a pulpwood thinning operation to show how to count growth rings to determine tree age and to show how trees slow in growth and need to be thinned. The thick dark rings show up really well in front of groups.  A few years later, I was resting against a tree eating lunch while mopping up on a forest fire, looked down at the little oak stump, casually counted the rings and was surprised that it was the exact age as my pine biscuit.  Hmmmmmmmmm, says I.........I think I can use a biscuit from this.....   ;D.  And a visual aid was born.........

I could use 2 biscuits from the same species close in age, if I could find them. But these being the exact same age, I thought they would better bring home the point I was trying to make.  I haven't been able to find two trees of the same species that are the exact same age but vastly different diameters that I could cut biscuits from. The "extreme" of these two help make my point.

Makes sense.
If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 

Psalms 139, 9-10.

thecfarm

Magicman,I googled the ruins,interesting.
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SwampDonkey

That looks like it was a grand old place at one time Magicman.

I often wonder what became of Lord Strathcona's mansion in Montreal, it was on two lots. Anyone I know who lives in Montreal never heard tell of the place.  Makes me some mad. ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Magicman

There is quite a story behind those Windsor Ruins.  That was the location when part of the movie "Raintree County" was filmed staring Elizabeth Taylor and Montgomery Cliff.  I watched the filming and believe me when I tell you that a 25 year old Elizabeth Taylor was a beautiful woman, at least to a 16 year old boy.


 
Here is a marble top table that I have that was made from three of the "leaves" from atop of one of the columns.  No they were not stolen.  At the time the ruins were owned by a private landowner who gave the wrought iron pieces to us.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

SwampDonkey

That table was a nifty idea and will hold some memorable times perhaps. :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Birchwood Logging

Great topic I like learning about the growth of trees the last track of timber I cut was old growth hard wood very tight growth rings 30 to 40 per inch up until about 80 to 100 years ago than the growth picked up I seen this in a lot of the trees I researched this and found out that the pick in growth was due to the American chestnut die off it was the dominant species here at the time when they died it gave the other trees there sun light
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PC-Urban-Sawyer

Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 11, 2014, 02:44:15 PM
That looks like it was a grand old place at one time Magicman.

I often wonder what became of Lord Strathcona's mansion in Montreal, it was on two lots. Anyone I know who lives in Montreal never heard tell of the place.  Makes me some mad. ::)

Wikipedia says it was demolished in 1941...

Herb

SwampDonkey

 :-X :-X Doesn't really surprise me as here in NB they (whom ever they are) wiped out anything to do with Alexander "Boss" Gibson. ::)

I do know Strathcona had an estate in Scotland and it recently was sold by heirs. At least his cousin's place 'Mount Stephen' still stands and the fishing lodge as well at the Reford Gardens on the Gaspe.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ranger McGregor

Personally i would be one to suggest that the diameter of a tree is not an indicator of age instead height is a better indicator for a number of species.

SwampDonkey

Height and age both depend on growing conditions such as site and light intensity and competition for minerals. If you have a real dense stand it will affect height, over time you will see certain trees express dominance in that thicket and grow over the top of others. All even aged, but different height between the less fortunate ones and those that got a little edge. Those site index curves look at the trees with an edge and exaggerates things for untreated sites where no silviculture is applied. Just up the road here is a good example, where on the edge of the stand near the road the spruce grow tall with good crowns and nice diameter. In the interior of the stand the spruce is suppressed junk under 70 foot tall aspen. Those spruce are the same age growing on abandoned field.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ranger McGregor

Yes absolutely SwampDonkey, i dont think either  are accurate, but if you were going to use a dimension i would choose height to say its young or old, while its innacurate it is a better indicator.

mesquite buckeye

Welcome Ranger McGregor. ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) :snowball:

Stick around for more fun. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Ranger McGregor on March 05, 2014, 01:04:31 PM
Yes absolutely SwampDonkey, i dont think either  are accurate, but if you were going to use a dimension i would choose height to say its young or old, while its innacurate it is a better indicator.

I understand the premise. But the data presented in those site index curves is normalized. We have site classification that was a very rushed compilation with huge gaps  and concentrates mostly on lumber producing softwoods. I think more effort was put into correlating ground veg and soil with site than was put into gathering tree data. Yet we have decades of growth and yield data for every species in PSP plots on corwn land and private woodlots. I could never quite get it. It has never been completed in my opinion and never been updated. I think rarely used unless academic. I bet you couldn't even get a personal copy these days. Quite frankly, I think a bunch of misfits from Kingclear through it together. Ok, I said too much already. :) I was also going to say, that if their soil sampling was anything like what they provided in Lincoln at the Ag centre, they were not of much value. My dad was a potato farmer and had to send samples to Ontario to get accurate results. We had a couple areas of a field that were not performing up to snuff and they didn't detect anything out of Lincoln. When we sent the soil samples to Ontario, we solved it. Might be why they closed up the soils lab last year. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ranger McGregor

Ouu very good. My forestry senses are tingling ;) Soil type, quality and drainage are the #1 driving force for tree growth. In the absence of disturbance trees are going to be suppressed. Absolutely. Very interesting you mentioned kingsclear.. Haha. Anyways thats for another day  another time. Its very interesting that there hasnt been a whole lot of work with correlations between site and trees (beside species that feed the lumber, and pulp&paper industry), however were taught a basic general list of site indicators in ground vegetation and not of the tree species. That confuses me greatly. Alot of knowledge of site vs. species is self obtained for me (like EWP and most other pines perform well in sandy soils) and it seems like not a whole lot of worthy experimentation or information is available for the tree species or not that i have seen yet without digging through scientific research articles.

It would be nice to see a detailed and updated list that correlates eco site to species of trees. I totally agree there SwampDonkey.

Okrafarmer

Welcome, Ranger McGregor! Where do you hail from? Scotland?  ;D More likely this side of the pond. Good to have you on board (hee hee), we have more fun around here than you can shake a stick at.  :D
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

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Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

SwampDonkey

Okra, he's just another one of those Canadian Maritimers. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Ranger McGregor on March 05, 2014, 07:04:15 PM
Very interesting you mentioned kingsclear.. Haha. Anyways thats for another day  another time.

When I look at the authors of the site class manual, I see names of individuals whose titles and positions have changed several times within DNR, many out of the seed centre in Kinsclear. I'm sure they are bright people, but some of them I question credentials. ;)

Their delineations of regions is a bit shotty to. The soils in Deersdale are different than those here in northern Carleton county and western Victoria county as well as Williamsburgh giving more variety of trees and better growing ground period. Yet they are mapped as one. You cannot farm boulder fields. In Carleton county we might have 6 spruce/sphagnum bogs, all under 5 acres. Our traditional swamps up here are cedar swamps, way more productive than a muskeg/moss covered bog. The bedrock is more calcareous and not sandstone. :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ranger McGregor

Quote from: Okrafarmer on March 06, 2014, 12:43:54 AM
Welcome, Ranger McGregor! Where do you hail from? Scotland?  ;D More likely this side of the pond. Good to have you on board (hee hee), we have more fun around here than you can shake a stick at.  :D
Thanks, i come from the good side of the pond my friend ;)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on March 06, 2014, 04:16:01 AM
Okra, he's just another one of those Canadian Maritimers. ;D
Only the best forestry professionals come from the maritimes, thats the story i heard and im sticking to it ;D

Okrafarmer

I'm sure you'll find at least one person here who will promptly reinforce that assertion!  :D
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

mesquite buckeye

Quote from: SwampDonkey on March 06, 2014, 04:16:01 AM
Okra, he's just another one of those Canadian Maritimers. ;D

That's ok. We'll still talk to him. ;D 8) 8) 8) :snowball:
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Magicman

Hello Ranger McGregor, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum.   8)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Banjo picker

 

 

I carved those initals in that beech 40 years ago in 1974.  The pic was taken a few years ago, but the tree still would not make a decent log....it has not grown much at all in 40 years.  Banjo
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Okrafarmer

Probably because somebody carved the bark!  :-X
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Magicman

Quote from: Banjo picker on March 06, 2014, 10:00:09 PMit has not grown much at all in 40 years.  Banjo 
But that old Beech still holds the memories.   smiley_love
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

SwampDonkey

There is a maple grove near here when my cousin taps and we have some young families near here who began doing some tapping to. And we got to talking last spring about the size of maples for tapping. And I pointed to that grove from their house and let them know, that when I was 6 or 7 and playing in that grove of maples, it was some 40 years ago and them maples are not much bigger now than they was. If you cut one and counted the rings, I bet you could barely distinguish each one from another. But they live a mighty long time to. Takes a long time to reach 40 some inches, oh at least 300 years. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

thecfarm

There was another thread about thinning. I mentioned I have a place I have been thinking of thinning. I have started on it. It's in view of the house and next to the woods road. I've been cutting the tree right next to the woods road. One of my friends came by and I told him I have been walking by those trees for more than 40 years and I don't think they have grown much at all. These are all hardwood trees.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Filson

Man, I just posted my newbie question about my new woodlot and getting the trees to grow bigger. I never realized how drastic growth difference can be, depending on the available light and nutrients. I realized it was a factor, buy holy smokes.  :o

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