iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Alternatives to deep footings for timberframe.

Started by brendonv, February 09, 2014, 11:30:40 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

brendonv

I've got plans to cut and raise a barn over the summer into the fall.  I'm not against doing a concrete footing for the timber frame building.  I'm wondering what, if any are the alternatives?

What did they do back in the day for these 100+ year old barn that are still standing proud?

I'm not planning on being this house forever, but need the barn now.  Plans would be to pack it up and take it with me and reassemble in its final resting spot after its served its purpose here.

"Trees live a secret life only revealed to those that climb them"

www.VorioTree.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vorio-Tree-Experts-LLC/598083593556636

Jim_Rogers

I have written about the foundation system that the horse farm across the highway from me used.
It's called the short pole system.

What you do is dig out a hole, by auger or by backhoe. Put in some type of footing. What they did was pour concrete in a ring made of plastic, by cutting a plastic 55 gallon barrel 10" tall, for a 10" tall footing. And put a piece of iron/steel in it to use as a hook for lifting.
The barrel sized 10" footing were poured on a piece of plywood and after they cured, were lifted by the internal hook and lowered into the hole, by the backhoe. Once in the hole, a short pole was placed on top of the concrete footing and then backfilled.
This short pole was a piece of pressure treated wood that is made for direct contact with the soil.
And then a regular "non treated" post was placed on top of the treated pole.
To hold the two together they nailed on a couple of 2by pieces of pressure treated planks.
Like this:



 

The construction foreman who showed me this system told me that they found this in an old barn in CT many years ago.

The idea is that when the "in ground" post/pole rots out you just hold the barn up with some blocking or another temporary post nearby and dig out the rotten post below ground and put in a new one. Re-attach some 2by planks and lower the barn back down if you jacked it up an inch or so.

You could use this system to do your "temporary barn" location and when you leave just leave the posts in the ground. Or cut them off flush and go.

Just my idea for your situation.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Thehardway

How big a barn are you speaking of?

Jim's solution would certainly work.

A traditional solution would be a gravel/rubble trench to below frost grade and then a stacked stone wall upon which white oak or chestnut sills would be placed.  The sill distributed weight evenly across the stone foundation and supported the posts.

Stones type varied based on the wealth and skill of the builder and ranged from small loose stacked ledge rock or field stone to large cut and fit sandstone, granite, limestone or Gniess blocks.

I have mentioned several times Shallow Frost Protected Footers but they do require some concrete.

White oak or Black Locust sills placed on a rubble or pea gravel trench would probably serve you well.
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

Dave Shepard

So on your system Jim, what's the order of installation? I wouldn't want to try and set all the PT posts in the ground and then expect to raise a TF on top of them. I would think you would need to attach the PT to the posts and then raise the entrie frame, and then back fill the holes.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Jim_Rogers

Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 10, 2014, 09:53:18 AM
So on your system Jim, what's the order of installation? I wouldn't want to try and set all the PT posts in the ground and then expect to raise a TF on top of them. I would think you would need to attach the PT to the posts and then raise the entrie frame, and then back fill the holes.

The system I saw was a "pole" barn. I wasn't there when they set the pole/post on top of the short poles system, so I don't know how the compensated for the exact location.
When I set my fence posts out, I did something similar. I dug the holes with a back hoe, which had a 1" wide bucket. I dug them in line with the fence length. So that there was room to move the post along the line. And a little left and right.
I put a string along the line I wanted the fence post on. And I set the post down into the hole and brought it up to the string. Then I leveled the post, front to back and left to right by adjusting the bottom of the post. Not the top as the top was on line with the string, and the correct distance from the last post by tape measure.
It is not hard to do when you use one of those corner post bubble level things. It hooks onto your fence post and gives you a reading on two sides. Nice thing to have when you're working alone.

You could do this same thing and set the short posts in place and back fill some. Brendon's frame is shown here:



 

He wanted a storage spot for his bucket truck and chip truck so he could enter through the ends.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Dave Shepard

I have seen that system, as well as one with laminated 2x6s for pole barns, but never for a new installation of TF. With a pole barn, you just set the poles and then build the barn around them, you can deal with it being off a 1/4" here and there. I just don't see being able to set the PT portion of the pole accurately enough to raise a frame on top of them.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

brendonv

Not sure how i missed these replies.  Thanks

I was wondering about the gravel trench, though i too thought i would have to add a sill to the bottom.  I was thinking digging down 42" for a footing on a building that will end up living somewhere else would stink to sink that money into.  ( i was thinking full perimeter footing, not just one hole per post). My goal is to raise this frame, and do a tin roof.  Keep the uv, rain and snow off the trucks.  In 3-5 years buy property, build my saltbox house, re-erect this frame, heat, electricity, the whole 9 yards.

A man can dream... :D
"Trees live a secret life only revealed to those that climb them"

www.VorioTree.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vorio-Tree-Experts-LLC/598083593556636

brendonv

The fpsf for ct shows 16" below grade.  Ill look into that as an option.
"Trees live a secret life only revealed to those that climb them"

www.VorioTree.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vorio-Tree-Experts-LLC/598083593556636

D L Bahler

You asked what the old barns used,

Often just heavy boulders under the posts. That is all. THis of course require sills to tie it all together, which also would have been used to frame the threshing floor.




Sandra Hoogland

I read this post with interest.  I have a timber frame barn/shed built prior to our 1908 Pommeranian Porch Barn and 1896 Ringle Brick home.  It measures approx 20x60 feet.  It's in relatively good condition other than it needs foundation work and subsequently the sills are rotting in some places so the roofline is beginning to sag.  I do not want to sink a fortune into this building.  It has the original dry stacked stone foundation without apparent footers or frost walls which have stood the test of time remarkably well.  I do not want to put a full 4 to 6 foot deep frost wall in due to the expense.  I read another post that talked about digging down below the frost line and laying a cement "cookie" down and placing a treated telephone pole on top (or one could make a laminated treated wood post) backfilled with gravel, to rest the sills of the timber frame on.   Then I read the above post about laying the sills directly on a gravel trench.  Is that a feasible long term solution- (meaning 25 to 50 years, not necessarily another 100)?
I would like to do the traditional approach described of a gravel/rubble trench to below frost grade and then a stacked stone wall upon which the sills would be placed.  But that leads to the question of whether anyone knows of someone who still does stacked stone foundations in north central WI.  It seems to be a dying art.  I could look into the possibility of getting square granite foundation stones made from a local quarry but that may be costly too.
The shed has 4 bays and I will be using one for horse stalls, a wash rack and tack room. The second bay will be a large alleyway used for grooming and tacking up and also to pull in wagons to unload hay into the lofts.  The third bay will be for the new horse trailer I will be purchasing and which is the impetus for the project.  The last bay will be for my husband to store farm equipment.  I do not plan to put in cement floors.  Currently there are wood floors probably not in salvageable condition.  I was wondering if there is a way the last 2 bays could be just a gravel floor.  The first bay will be something that will allow good drainage underneath covered with thick rubber mats like those use in most stables. I'm not sure how it would work to drive equipment over the sills unless one brought the grade of the gravel up to the top of the sills and then would rot be an issue even with treated wood sills?  I appreciate all comments and suggestions!

Magicman

Suggestions are out of my league, but Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Sandra Hoogland.  Adding your location to your profile will probably help with suggestions.   :)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

LeeB

North Central WI, Lynn.

".......anyone knows of someone who still does stacked stone foundations in north central WI."
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

timberwrestler

www.uncarvedblockinc.com
www.facebook.com/uncarvedblockinc

RavensWood

re:The fpsf for ct shows 16" below grade.  Ill look into that as an option.

It is unlikely that the 16" is below grade - this is probably the thickness of the edge of the slab. Typically there is at least 8" (or more) above grade, the thick edge acts as a grade beam to support loads (usually 2 runs of rebar), the main slab is only 4" or so thick. Often these are built almost at grade and then back filled so they can be fairly inexpensive. You would have to have wing insulation around the outside - not sure what is required for an unheated structure but my guess is that you would also still have to insulate under the slab.

robbshowe

We have often used re-bar reinforced concrete poured into cardboard tubes.  We also use cedar tree trunks sunk into circular holes(1' in diam) to act as pile footings.  Both methods have worked extremely well over the years.
I tend to favour the cedar piles as I do not like the hassle or environmental issues of using concrete.  Both system will require you to use substantial sole plates but for a building you hope to move at some point, this is not a bad idea in any case! The piles need to be positioned under the main supporting posts and also midway along long spans.
The cedar piles or other timber which survives well in contact with soil will last a suprising length of time.
This system also caters for a sloping site!  We make our piles longer than need be then using a laser or even a water filled tube to establish the correct level and simply chainsaw the excess!  Good luck

timberwrestler

I have used FPSF (aka Alaskan slabs) on several jobs.  The latest code incarnation for most states, the 2009 IRC, does not allow FPSF for unheated buildings.  The code used to allow it though. 
www.uncarvedblockinc.com
www.facebook.com/uncarvedblockinc

shelbycharger400

buddys late 1800's/1900's barn was 8x8 timbers layed directly on black dirt.   

Thehardway

 I was under the impression that this was not going to be an inspected building or if so it would be considered a none residential unheated accessory stucture.  If it is not a heated structure you should be able to get it built under Ag codes rather than IRC residential code.

I would think an unheated stucture  in CT is not considered a residence unless you are homeless and the structure is a cardboard box. :laugh:

The idea behind a rubble or gravel trench with dry stacked stone is two fold. 1. It takes moisture expansion in the ground in order for frost to heave it.  By using a gravel trench to create a dry zone, and eliminate capillary action, the moisture cannot freeze and lift the gravel and the gravel or rubble will move with the ground to accommodate it rather than cracking heaving    2.  This dry zone also serves to protect the sills from rotting out due to moisture wicking from earth or from concrete thereby preserving untreated sills.

Additionally the building should move independent of any concrete floor inside or external attachments.  A gravel or rammed earth floor inside would be fine.
This is a cause of problems where new, code compliant additions are made to older structures that actually rise and fall with the seasons.  The new addition with a foundation that does not move can actually pull the orginal structure apart.  Not good.

Sandra,

Welcome to the forum. In WI your best bet would be to talk to a historical barn preservation group.    They could also give you a good starting point on conserving what is left of your structures and fixing any foundation issues as well as leads on craftsmen to perform the repairs. There may also be grant money available for this if the buildings are of historical significance and they should know this info. 
If your existing foundation has been in service since 1908 there is no reason to believe that you can't get another 100 years by just replacing the rotted sills and leaving the foundation as is with minor repairs.  Just make sure the sills you replace them with are of a rot resistant species.  I would try to find White Oak, Black Locust, or Osage Orange.  All of these should be available in WI.
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

Thank You Sponsors!