making a living

[tbish]

I was wandering if a person could make a small living operating a small sawmill business I have the mill and its paid for house paid for no car payments a lot of coal mines in my area may be 1 market what about tie market?  I recently lost my day job and trying to figure what to do get another low paying job or try something myself jobs in my area are scarce and mainly 10$hour jobs and really I'm sick of them and no I'm not lazy. I appreciate your opinions?

[JB Griffin]

Welcome to FF tbish, and it might be possible in your area with a whole lot of work. I am trying the same thing down here in Arkansas. Best of luck.

[WoodenHead]

When you have no other choices, you do what you have to do to make a living.  But at times the person making $10/hour is doing better than me.  :D  Depending on what you have in mind, even with everything paid for, it still isn't an easy go.  There are a few on this forum who make a living with their sawmill and do alright. 

[Bibbyman]

You didn't mention health insurance or kids that want to go to college.  Or the desire to take vacations and actually go some place and spend a few dollars.    All those things become luxury items on a sawmill owner's income.

[thecfarm]

$10 an hour jobs,sounds like this area. Hardly any industry around here anymore. I was making about $6.20 in a shoe shop back in the early '80's.

[dgdrls]

Take another job and build the mill business off hours,
I believe many folks here have walked that path or are walking that path currently.

Ties can be tough, others can speak to it better than I,
you can also check the RR tie Association

http://www.rta.org/

From what I have learned Ties can be a volume product
or  saw some as you go, build a load, then sell them.
You have to be a pretty savy sawyer to know if a log is a tie
or better value as a saw log.

See if you have a buyer close by otherwise transport eats into your profit.

Best
DGDrls

[tbish]

I was in the tie part of sawmilling in the late 80s as an off bearer I have handled thousands of them as far as insurance there isn't many jobs in this area that even offer insurance the mill is just crossing my mind real hard now I didn't mention it would be a stationary mill on my place buying outside logs the coal mines use a lot of crib boards in my area I know the lumber side of just selling to individuals would be a tough go not many people use rough lumber anymore

[Magicman]

Developing a sawing business/market could take time, and even then, might or might not be enough to sustain itself.  Niche markets sometime can be very profitable but can also be elusive.  I like the idea of keeping sawmilling as a second or "sideline" job until you build a customer or product base.

[WDH]

I would say no.  I agree that it would work as a sideline or second job.

[Possum Creek]

What kind of mill do you have? It takes a while to get a load of anything with a small mill so I take my ties to a bigger mill and they haul them with theirs. Ties are selling pretty good here now but who knows how long that will last? Can you keep logs coming in? I guess the real question is how small a living can you get by on till your business takes off?  I  would also say to start as a side job and expand if you can.   Good luck.                          PC

[lyle niemi]

nothing ventured, nothing gained. If you're gonna do it get a pair of good running shoes and get on the road and advertise your buns off.

[Bibbyman]

We're coming up on the 20'th anniversary of owning a Wood-Mizer. The first 10 years we ran one serious second income.  I won't say part time because we ran it a lot and still kept our day jobs. 

We've ran it full time, only income for past 10.  The recession has hit us hard.  Lower prices, fewer orders,  and higher operating cost cut the profit out of our business.   

We have evolved our business a couple of revolutions over the years. We've went from mostly custom sawing and small local orders to sawing nearly full time for a log broker (twice) to sawing ties and cants and flooring,  and now back to mostly custom sawing and local orders.  We are as close to sawing part time as we've ever been due to the bitter cold winter.

[Ron Wenrich]

All a sawmill does is tie together a source of logs to a buyer of lumber.  I've seen many a mill fold under the pressure of not being able to get logs.  You need a dependable log source that will bring in the type of log you want.  I've always worked for guys that had their own logging crews.  If you are buying logs, you better know what you're buying.  Its easy to pay too much, and you'll have to match the gatewood of the mill down the road or they won't bring you logs.  Those loggers will expect to be paid each week.  This is the first hurdle you need to cross. 

The lumber markets aren't as hard to come by when times are good.  Ties and blocking can be sold.  But, that means you need a lower grade log.  Side cuts will have to be sold.  You won't be able to keep anything in inventory, as cash flow is what you're going to be looking for.  If you're thinking of selling small lots to lumber users, your market becomes much smaller.  Along with your lumber market, you have to figure out what to do with your waste.  Bigger mills have a source for bark, chips and sawdust.  That amounts to a good deal of income compared to a small mill that's giving it away, selling it cheap, or throwing it out.  That's the second hurdle.

Where your business plan needs to come into shape is if you can fit into the equation of profit = lumber prices - log costs - mfg costs.  You are the mfg costs.  Can you make a living?   Sharpen your pencil and figure it out.  You'll have to make calls to find realistic log costs and lumber prices.  Figure out your mfg costs.  Don't forget insurance, taxes, trucking and any other overhead that goes into it.  You can figure it up on a per Mbf basis and guesstimate your annual production.  Most guys overestimate the amount of production they will do.  They underestimate the cost of sawing or the cost of logs.  Your competition fits that mfg costs model.  You need to match it.  If you exceed it, you're out of business.

Other options are to change your lumber markets by going to a niche market.  We have a few guys on here that have done that, and its worked quite well.  Bottom line is that you have to develop a business plan and see if it works out.  Being starved for capital will hurt. 

Sometimes the $10/hr job works out if it allows you to make money on the side.  It provides a steady income.  Custom sawing may be a way to get started and build experience, a niche market, and capital.

[red oaks lumber]

if you believe in your self, others will also in time. do your homework and give it a go. the worst thing is  you'll have to get a job if things don't take off.
best of luck to you!

[BBTom]

You have indicated that you know what it takes to saw ties, and you must have some idea of what the mines need for that product to be on your radar.  You are not employed at this time, so doing it as a second job is out of the question because you don't have a first job.  You have the mill and your health, and hopefully a source of logs.

If that is all true, then I say go for it.  You might make a good living sawing or you might find a contact along the way to get a good "first job".  In any case I wish you the the very best.

Tom

[Seaman]

tbish,
go back and read Ron's reply again, once a day thereafter.
By all means strive for your goal, make a good business plan, and that plan will answer a lot of questions.
Frank

[Cedarman]

There are 3 aspects of your business.  Procurement, production, marketing.  Ron covers the first 2 well.  Marketing is just as important as the first 2.  You must balance all 3.  Salesmanship is extremely important.  That job is to convince your customers that your product is what they need.  This is especially important in the niche markets such as trailer decking, fence boards and other items you might sell to small companies.  Your body language must indicate that you will do what your words say you will do.  Read books, watch videos etc of how to be a great salesman.
Marketing is different than salesmanship. Read everything you can on marketing. Marketing involves figuring out what goods to make and where those markets might be.  Look at all the places wood is used in your areas.  Back when we custom cut and sold wood from the farm we sold big blocking to a electric generation station when they wanted to move big equipment.  Not big sales, but profitable.    Construction companies and equipment companies use odd blocking.  Work to become the go to guy for those people.
It is not something that you will accomplish overnight, but you will if you set your mind to it.
Are you thinking of this 24/7?  How passionate are you and will you become?

[tbish]

Hope I'll get all your questions here the mill is a circle mill I totally rebuilt last year its in extremely good condition the logs i got very good source on getting those. Actually several  I'm really not worried about getting logs and I understand this could change the waste I have thought about slabs cut up and sold  several barbque reastaraunts in my area the dust major market for that lots of horse farms their always looking   I thank everyone for the good advice

[Possum Creek]

Can you saw by yourself or will you need a crew? Sounds like you have a good mill, if you can keep logs coming in and lumber going out you might make more than a small living.                PC

[Ron Wenrich]

You should be able to get good enough production to have a chance at cutting ties and blocking.  Is it a hand mill or automatic?  I sawed on a hand mill to start, and averaged about 5 Mbf per day with 2 helpers.  We didn't saw ties at the time.  We eventually went on to getting an automatic as we improved our operation.  We bought a lot of used equipment to start up.  But, we did have our own logging crews and had no debt.

I also worked at a hand mill where weekly production was in the 90 Mbf level.  We worked 45 hr weeks and sawed a lot of tulip poplar, and heavy thicknesses.  We had a 10 man crew.  Also had a couple of crews and bought gatewood.   They eventually up graded to doing 1 MMbf per week.  That used a circle mill and 2 resaws.  They also worked 3 shifts.  They were also heavily in debt.  Just to point out that you can start with small equipment and expand as markets dictate.

Cutting slabs to length takes time.  And that takes time from production.  Also, the market is limited and very seasonal.  You could make mulch with a wood hog, but that is also a cyclical market.  It could be leveled out if you can sell it as boiler fuel.  Another option is to go to making shavings.  We have a shavings operation in the area that caters to the poultry business.  Even chipping is a good alternative.  One mill used to run a chipper on a Saturday and would chip the whole weeks slab production.  The only problem is double handling anything gets to be expensive.

[tbish]

I called a friend today he has been a logger for 27 yrs I was asking him if there would be a market for a mill and he said he could hook me up with a contractor for 6by6by8ft right now it sounded very promising that was good news someone ask about the mill its a manual mill but I'm Woking out a hydraulic log turner for it should be very easy to fabricate hydraulic pump with a tooth chain that turns the log with a hydraulic cylinder to move the turner out of the way and to apply pressure to the log again I want to say thanks I'm taking the advice in like a sponge your experience is a great asset to me!

[Ron Wenrich]

Hydraulic turners are OK, but you will need to secure your carriage to the track when you turn the log.  Otherwise you'll throw the carriage off the track.  You do that by putting a piece of angle iron on the carriage and one on the track.  They need to interlock.  You'll have about ½" of clearance so that they don't rub.  My carriage had 2 on them.  Your track needs to be fastened down, or you'll end up having alignment problems.

I wouldn't build a log turner.  There are enough of used ones to fill that need.  Everything you build takes away from production time.  In the meantime, you can turn by hand.  If you want an easier way, I had a set of rollers on the end of my log deck.  My log deck consisted some hickory poles that didn't have any bark on them.  These rolls were on a hinge so you could move them out of the way.  You simply turned out onto the rolls, and the log would be turned and slid back onto the carriage.  They were pretty heavy duty and I turned some mighty big logs with them.  Some needed a couple of guys to pull it out.  Saves the back and is as quick as a log turner.  Mellot has a claw turner that had one of these on top.  I know of one miller that used that wheel to turn logs more than he did the claw.  But, 2 of them work much better.  You should be able to fabricate something like that a lot quicker and cheaper.

6x6x8 would be a good market for logs that don't make ties.  A lot would depend on price.  I had a pallet market for 3½x6.  What fell below tie quality went there.  I also kept my blocking cut about 1/8" heavier to keep my buyers happy.  You need alternative markets.  You also have to figure out what you need to do with the side cuts.

Do you have an edger?  What do you have for moving logs and lumber?  These things are needed to have an effective operation.

[LittleJohn]

The other nice thing about cutting logs down to bolts/cants/blocks, if you have extra the can sometimes be saved and remilled into dimensional lumber.

I know you said that there is not much industry near where you live, but you may want to look into building pallet or contacting a pallet supplier and getting orders for custom sized pallets