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New teeth

Started by dustyjay, February 05, 2014, 03:24:53 PM

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dustyjay

I've been putting off this job in the recent cold weather. I wanted a warmer day for a barehanded project handling metal. The snow gave me a day off from work today and I was able to get the teeth replaced. I adjusted the guides too, and was able to cut multiple 1X10X14' boards that turned out well.
Here you can see how worn the old teeth were. It was quite a shock to see how big the difference was.


 


 
Proper prior planning prevents pith poor performance

Possum Creek

Those old teeth are so narrow it could not have given the saw plate much clearance, I bet they are older than you. I use regular steel bits. What are the advantages of standall type bits? I have several new bits but when I get some more I might want to try some standalls.                PC

Ron Wenrich

I would change teeth when my file started to drag in the gullet of the tooth.  I only ran Standall bits one time.  I didn't like them.  For the most part, I ran a chrome long tooth.   They keep their edge longer, but they can't be swaged.  The standard steel tooth can be swaged.  A swage is a tool used to make the tooth wider.  If you were having problems with the saw heating up, then swaging the tooth and dressing the tooth will give you the needed clearance.  Depending on what I was cutting, I'd get about 50-75 Mbf from a set of teeth.  I cut primarily hardwoods, mainly tulip poplar and oak.

Not trying to be critical, but, by looking at your used tooth, I would say that I could have gotten some more footage off of it.  My teeth were much shorter when I pitched them.  One thing to remember is to keep your angle on your tooth as you sharpen.  If you make it too fat, it won't cut very well, and feel like it is dull.  It will also cut off line and your saw will heat up. 

As for Possum's question about Standall bits.  They are used to slow the velocity of the sawdust in the gullet.  It allows the fine dust to stay in the gullet and not spill as much.  You will get fine dust in harder woods, and in frozen wood.  If you're using a regular bit, you can the same result by using a winter shank.  Most guys in my area use a regular bit and a winter shank.  The winter shank will be heavier and have metal that sticks out into the gullet.  You shouldn't mix winter shanks with Standall bits.  It acts the same as having a summer shank and a regular bit, but you have a smaller gullet. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Possum Creek

Thanks, Mr. Wenrich.    Dustyjay I watched your youtube logging videos, you have a nice team. How about you put us on a sawmill video so we can see those new teeth cut. Cain't have too many sawmill videos.                 PC

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

The Standal bit has the extra ridge (right by his thumb in the second picture) inside the gullet (in case someone does not know what it is).  This was originally to help keep the sawdust spinning in the gullet so ti would not freeze.  In the mill I managed, we liked the bit so much, we used it year-round, as do many people, and not just with frozen logs.

Regarding the thinness (or narrowness of an inserted tooth, there is a tool that is called a swage.  It is a short metal rod with a slot at one end.  The tooth is put into the slot and then the back of the swage is hit with a hammer.  This spreads the tooth material at the very tip to give a wider kerf.  Sometimes an automatic sharpener will have a swage built in.  The secret is to hit every tooth the same.  It does take a little practice to get it perfect, but it easy to learn...even I could do it eventually.



 
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

chopperdr47

I got a tremendous amount of great advice here getting my circle to cut straight. I swaged my teeth then sharprned them with some success until i started making some deep cuts in a 12" cant. When I went back and took a closer look, I saw that I didn't have them uniform from 1 to the next and it caused my blade to walk.

It took me less time to replace the teeth at about $1.50 per bit. I decided it was worth my time to pay the $ and save the time until I get better at swaging.

If ya ain't got what ya need, use what ya got

Ron Wenrich

Save the old teeth for when you hit metal. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

I'm like Ron, had no use for the standalls. Didn't like them one bit. I used to have a very poor video on here of swagging. Very low quality, and before youtube.  I wonder if I can find it.  Swagging to me became like riding a bike. I had a special hammer I used that no one else was allowed to touch. It was just the perfect weight and balance to do what Dr. Gene remarked on, doing the same thing exactly the same way for every tooth.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

I found the old clips, uploaded them to youtube and spliced them together. Not good videos, but they give you an idea.

http://youtu.be/v-5qd-J4NNs
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

dustyjay

Lots of great info here folks, thanks.

Replacing the teeth was a troubleshooting test for me. I'm a new sawyer, and this is an old mill that hadn't seen much maintenance for the last 10 years at least. The saw really started to walk badly after sawing some frozen knotty pine. I sharpened and swaged to the best of my understanding and cut well for about 3 more logs before I got the same walking happening again.

Replacing the teeth took sharpener inexperience out of the equation. I'm sure some of you could get more life out of the teeth. My local sawmill is owned y some good friends and they sold me "B" teeth by the tooth so I did not have to buy a whole box. I did not even know about Standal/ not standall, but so far I like these teeth.

Can anybody tell me are these "carbide" teeth? How would I know by looking and what are your thoughts about carbides.

I agree price isn't too big of a deterrent to keep me from replacing teeth when they get low. In the meantime I'll practice sharpening and swaging. I kept an extra tooth for my guide when I sharpen.
Proper prior planning prevents pith poor performance

Jeff

If they are carbide, you wont be able to touch them with a file.

You have to be able to sharpen and maintain your teeth. You can cut one slab and hit a bit of grit and have brand new teeth not cut well either.  New teeth are cutting better than your old teeth simply because they are sharp and straight and a bit wider. Teeth are very expensive if you replace then because they are dull.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Possum Creek

I believe you have steel teeth. Here is a picture of a carbide tooth.

   I have not used them yet but most people around here do. You have to have a sharpener for them because they are too hard for a file. I have heard if you have clean logs they will last a long time but they are expensive.         PC

Ron Wenrich

Carbide are about 3 times as expensive.  They also don't fair too well when you hit trash metal.  Very few in our area use them. 

Frozen logs means you need sharp teeth.  Its possible that your saw was dull after those three logs, or that a few teeth got damaged, especially if you were sawing logs with bark on them.  For sawing frozen logs, you don't need as wide of teeth, and you don't need as much lead.  I always had better luck with shorter teeth.

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bandmiller2

Jeff, was that you in the video.?? Reason I ask is the swedge was hit twice was it once with the curved pocket and once with the straight pocket or boath hits straight. For those  that have never seen a swedge  there are two pockets one is curved to push metal to the edges the other straight to make the edge straight. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

chopperdr47

It looks to me like "the swager" is leaning the tool from one side to the other slightly without flipping it over to use the other pocket.

I'm guessing that the teeth are being spread then he came back with the straight side thats not shown.

Just a guess

If ya ain't got what ya need, use what ya got

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

When I swaged, I did hit the with curved pocket on the tooth (actually two hits) and wee did have a special hammer just for this; and then after all were done, came back and hit with the flat once.  I think that this is exactly what chopperdr47 said too.

Regarding short teeth, when sawing softer woods, we had one saw that had every other tooth new and the others were short.  Almost all the work was done by the long new teeth.  With half as many working teeth, the chips were larger and the blade ran truer.  We did this because Stan Lundstrum, the author of the above referenced Circular Sawmill text, suggested that we try it.  Out blade was 56" diameter band was a bit sensitive to heating.  It worked well indeed.

Incidentally, if someone is new to circular saws with inserted teeth, take out one tooth and shank at a time and replace the shank in its original location.  If the locations get mixed, the saw is likely to be unstable.

Regarding getting the teeth to be equal on each side, the technical term is side dressing (and sometimes side grinding).  We had a small jig that we would place on the main body of the saw and then go past each tooth to see if it cleared the jig or not.  We did this for both sides of the blade.  I seem to recall that we used a brass head on a  hammer to hit the teeth to move them slightly.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

lyle niemi

Quote from: dustyjay on February 05, 2014, 03:24:53 PM
I've been putting off this job in the recent cold weather. I wanted a warmer day for a barehanded project handling metal. The snow gave me a day off from work today and I was able to get the teeth replaced. I adjusted the guides too, and was able to cut multiple 1X10X14' boards that turned out well.
Here you can see how worn the old teeth were. It was quite a shock to see how big the difference was.


 


 
Your old tooth looks like you could get a few more miles on it???

Ron Wenrich

I often thought about the skipping a tooth method of blade maintenance.  But, I never got around to trying it.  Glad to know it worked.

The small jig that Gene talks about is called a spider gauge.  At one time, they used to give you one when you bought a new saw.  Now you can get one from your saw doc.  They cost about $20.  In a pinch, I would take the flat edge of a file and put it against the side of 3 teeth.  The one in the middle should match the other 2.  The spider gauge works a lot better and quicker.  You'll be able to find any high teeth that can steer a saw.

As for swaging, the curved side is designed to spread the tooth out.  I've watched many a sawyer swage the corners of the tooth.  That's not the best method.  You should be using the curved part in the center of the tooth.  That spreads metal from the middle of the tooth outwards.  If you do the corners of the tooth, you're going to make the metal thin, and they'll break off.  The corners do the cutting, so that's where you want the most metal.  The flat side is used to square off the tooth.  You'll also find that all new teeth aren't identical.  Some will be wider than others, and some will be offset to one side.  Competition is good, but there's none in the tooth business anymore.

Another thing to be aware of is that the swage has to be held so that you're not pulling up or pushing down on the edge of the tooth.  You'll end up with a hook that you'll have to file off in order to have sharp teeth.  That's a waste of time and metal.  If its too severe, you'll sharpen off what you've swaged, and you're back to where you started.

I found that if you swaged every 2-3 sharpenings, and did a light one, you would probably be good to go.  The newer teeth are designed a little bit different then the older style.  There isn't as much of a pronounced "v" as it was.  Swaging isn't as necessary as it once was.  The introduction of chrome has changed the practice.  There is no swaging in carbide.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bandmiller2

From the little swaging I've done I find its far too easy to swage a bit too wide, kinda wish the straight pocket would be the width of the bit say 9/32". I have mentioned this before buy wile waiting for a truck in the spring shop I used to hang out at a sawmill close by. The co. tore down old buildings in Boston then recut the timbers. The sawyer told me he only cut with every other bit the one in the middle was filed blunt. He said if you hit nailes it limits the damage as the blunt bit punches out the nail. I have my doubts and think the boss didn't want to give him all new bits. Had to laugh there was a crew of five pulling hardware when the timber would head for the saw they all dove for cover,roof was full of holes. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

chopperdr47

I'm starting a Christmas Fund for myself to get one of those Jockey sharpeners.
If ya ain't got what ya need, use what ya got

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

I have seen plenty of holes in the roofs of a sawmill with inserted teeth...some, not all.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Possum Creek


"Regarding short teeth, when sawing softer woods, we had one saw that had every other tooth new and the others were short.  Almost all the work was done by the long new teeth.  With half as many working teeth, the chips were larger and the blade ran truer.  We did this because Stan Lundstrum, the author of the above referenced Circular Sawmill text, suggested that we try it.  Out blade was 56" diameter band was a bit sensitive to heating.  It worked well indeed."


I run my 46" 36 tooth saw like this on my belsaw, it takes less power and makes bigger chips.  I think using 18 of the 36 teeth better matches the slower feed rate of a belsaw ( about 1" per revolution ) .                  PC

ddcuning

I ran an old Frick 00 for five years and we always had heating problems with the blade. After reading this thread I realized how much I had no idea what I was doing for those 5 years. Thank you all so much for this information, it will make sawing on my mill so much easier. We secured two 30 inch poplars last weekend and we are doing our first sawing today.

Dave C
We're debt free!!! - Dave C, Nov 2015

bandmiller2

Your right Dave, I have found a bandmill is much easier to master than a circular. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

NMFP

Does anyone know if SAWPAW Mfg is still in business?  They made a one piece bit and shank carbide bit.  I used to have a flyer for them but somehow discarded it over the years and I see now, the website does not work anymore.

Any suggestions or thoughts here?  Never used them but it seems like a different idea.

Same company that made the sawpaw sharpener that used sandpaper drums to sharpen??

Jeff

Quote from: bandmiller2 on February 06, 2014, 08:41:45 PM
Jeff, was that you in the video.?? Reason I ask is the swedge was hit twice was it once with the curved pocket and once with the straight pocket or boath hits straight. For those  that have never seen a swedge  there are two pockets one is curved to push metal to the edges the other straight to make the edge straight. Frank C.

Yup, thats me.  I don't know if my method would be sanctioned as the apprved method, but it worked very well for me. I know Ron doesn't. :D    I used only the curved side. What you cannot see in the video, is that I am moving the swage from one side of the tooth to the other between hammer blows. I did one side of the tooth, then the other. There is a lot going on there that you don't really fathom until you do it. The swage has to be held a certain way. so the bit contacts the tool correctly. The hammer blows need to be very consistent to make sure both sides of the tooth are the same. I did it this way because I could get the tooth width with very easy hammer blows.  I'd follow up simply by sharpening. Occasionally I'd have to side dress, but not often. It takes practice to get it right. There are several topics on here on the subject, in fact Frank has asked me this before. ;) :)

From an old Post:

I have 2 swags. One I will take with me when I leave because its an extention of my hand ;D. The other one, (the one with blue paint on it) should be thrown in a lake.





Here's the difference. A good swage handle has 6 sides, it fits your hand and does not twist when struck.



The 4 sided fits ackwardly in your hand and will twist when struck.


The Secret of swaging a saw is to do everything exactly the same on each tooth. Hold the swage the same each time and strike it the same. If you look at the tools above you will see which I use by the wear. I only use the curved side. I hit once for one corner, slide the tool sideways on the tooth and strike again for the opposite corner.

The Tooth may start out looking like this:



The resulting swaged and ready to be sharpened tooth looks like this:

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Wenrich

You're right, it wouldn't be my approved method.   :D

Your tooth in the first picture has a corner that has broken or worn off.  I wouldn't be able to get away with too many of those without it pulling my saw, especially in oak.  I was running 700 RPM, and the saws are not very forgiving at those speeds. 

Sawpaw I believe is gone.  It was an idea that never caught on.  I believe it had to do with the expense.  Think about how you would use them.  Whenever you change shanks, you should have your saw hammered.  The carbide would only last so long and then the shanks would have to be pulled so they could have carbide put back on.  That means every time you needed new teeth, your saw should be hammered.  I always got 1-2 MMbf from a hammering.  I know some guys who got more. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bandmiller2

Sorry about the repeat Jeff but I forget a lot now, have to keep looking at my name tag. good info for the new guys. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

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