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stihl saw problems

Started by Randy88, January 31, 2014, 06:37:49 PM

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Randy88

Ran my stihl saws this past weekend and on Monday and Tuesday as well, mixed all new gas before we started, kept them in my heated shop each night and we were bucking up firewood each day all day long.    Everything was done like I'd done it for years, new gas, stihl oil mix, mix it slightly excessive we'd put a 2.5 gallon oil mix per 2 gallons of gas, that's the size of my gas can, used nonethanol gas and everything was kept in the shop to keep it warm, gassed up the saws in the shop to keep myself warm as well, didn't let the saws sit around outside not running.    After a couple of gas can fills my couple year old 460 wouldn't start so we set it aside and kept running my 660 and 361, after a couple more gas jugs of gas run through both saws, my 361 locked up while idling, its over 10 years old and has had a hard life so I said maybe its a bearing or something, I'd take them both in to the fixit guy when I got that far.     

Today was the day, I took them in dropped them off and told him I'd like the 460 back today if possible, I'd be back for it, he said not a problem he'd have it ready to go, got back this afternoon to pick it up and when I walked it he said "boy are you having a bad day" both saws have scoured pistons and jugs, he showed me both saws parts and they are toasted royally, we chatted some and I told him the 361 locked up with its current gas mix in it, so we looked and he said yes its mixed, I told him how I'd done it, both saws have mixed gas in them, we double checked and both saws quit with a different gas can mix, so it wasn't the same batch so what happened?   He didn't really have any ideas at all, I told him I'd check at home, all the oil mix can's are still sitting in the shop waste basket, should be five in there, that's the can mixes we went through and yes they are there all accounted for.    I really am clueless as to what happened, I've mixed gas and run the same procedure for years, like 40 years and never had an issue, had the 660 and 361 both for over 10 years and the 460 for a couple of years.   

If I screwed up somewhere along the way, I'd have no clue as to where, the other thing is the 361 quit running and locked up and that's when we quit, the piston is scoured on the exhaust side, can be seen through the muffler hole, I was having problems with the muffler staying tight and had it off twice over the weekend, the last time it was off was just before I filled it the last time, the piston looked good at that time, nothing scored because I did take a flashlight and look at it, so it scoured in that last tank of gas, and we didn't get the tank completely empty and there's mixed gas in the partial tank in the saw.    Any suggestions as to what went wrong and how to prevent it from ever happening again?     

The only idea my fixit guy had was maybe because it was so cold the oil didn't lube like it should have, due to fact it was indeed 25-35 below zero those days we ran the saws.   We never started them cold, or let them sit around in the cold not running, they were either idling or wide open when outside those days, came from a warm shop and I'm not sure that explains it, but I'll admit I'm clueless as to what happened?

Ward Barnes

Just a wild guess that may not stand on science so take it for what it is - just a wild guess.  If there were water mixed in the gas would cold temps like you were working in i.e. 25 degrees below zero force the water out of the fuel and then be ingested into the cylinder and cause the scoring?  If you were using ethanol gasoline the alcohol could have absorbed water from the warm air in your workshop. How old was the fuel you used?

God Bless, Ward and Mary.
7 year old Stihl MS 390.  New Stihl trim saw MS 250.  Kubota BX 2200 tractor.  2005 F150 4X4.
Dull chains cause accidents.  Accidents cause shorter life spans.
You don't sharpen a chain when it gets dull.  You sharpen a chain to keep it from getting dull.

Knute

I'm probably wrong, but can't help but think it has to do with the extreme cold temperatures.

blueberrymuzik

This certainly sounds like water made its' way into the gas. It might be interesting to find some glass containers and pour all of the remaining fuel mix off into them, just to see if there is water in the bottom of the container.

The other thought that comes to mind- it is not outside of the realm of possibility that the tank truck driver dumped the wrong fuel into the "non-ethanol" tank when unloading. Wonder how long a saw can last on E-85?

JohnG28

First off, you can and will still get ethanol in non ethanol gas, at least sometimes. Others have tested and proven this. I would definitely check the fuel in a test tube or the like and see if any separation occurs. Aside from that what we're you cutting?  Dull chains? The cutting conditions appear to be the only constant here. Not saying that you don't know what you are doing,  but pushing saws in adverse conditions with dull chain and hard frozen wood would be bad for the saws too.

PS: I'd be sad to lose that pair too. :(
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AKDoug

At -25F temps you need to richen the saw's H screw up. There is more oxygen density in cold air and a temp that low can easily seize a saw that's been tuned to run well at 50F, regardless of how much oil there is in the fuel. It happens all the time in the two stroke snowmobile world with big temp swings.


Randy88

We were bucking up firewood, three of us were operating, one in the skid steer and skid steer splitter would hold up a log while two running saws would buck them up, one on each end of the log would cut to the middle cutting off blocks as they went.    The logs were held about waist high so nobody had to bend over, so the saws were never close to the ground, when the skid steer operator was getting another log picked up, the chainsaw operators would sit on a cut block and hold the saw idling or just stand and wait till the next log showed up, usually not long less than a minute and then back wide open again cutting.   

The gas was fresh, we'd gone and got several different five gallon gas cans worth at the local pumps and then I'd mix then into the smaller two gallon can as I went and I needed it.   As for e-85 the local pump station doesn't handle that at all, just the standard ethanol mix gas.    Even stihl claims you can run the ethanol based gas and mix it with the oil and it shouldn't do damage to the saws, its a question I've asked many times.   

As for chains being sharp on frozen wood, I sharpened 6-7 chains per saw before we started, I told everyone to not even mess around with dull chains, I like to have them sharp and keep them sharp, basically hold the throttle and hang onto the saw was as tough as it got.    As I was refueling or changing chains then just one saw would be running, I did have to resharpen a few chains as we went but nothing to get excited about, we figured we hit some metal in a few logs and I just changed chains and took the damaged ones and sharpened them.     As we'd shut down for dinner or supper we'd put the saws back into the shop and sit them on the heated floor.    I'd sharpen some chains after we'd shut down for the day and the other two were putting things away, right off I can't recall how many sharp chains we actually went through but as for chewing with a dull chain, no, everyone gets pretty spoiled running sharp chains and just hanging onto the throttle and let her cut, as I tell them a sharp chain takes 90 percent of the work out of running a chainsaw and we were less than a 100 feet from the shop at all times doing the work in the yard.   

The fuel cans, mixed gas can and saws all sat on the heated floor in my shop, which was still heating to over 70 degrees, so in essence the fuel should have been warm and the saws started in the shop, after the first tank for the day then the saws would be at operating temp when refueled, and my fix it guy said the same thing I did, if everything's warm, and the saw running, no matter how cold the saw should generate enough heat to keep the fuel warm, or at least its what we both thought.   I could understand idea of leaving the saws sit on the ground or even just outside for a half an hour or hour not running and would cool off, but as my family said, there's no way anyone was sitting around, they'd take the saw back the shop and sit in there if they were not running the saws or had to wait for something for any reason.   

As for water in the fuel, I've never had the saws run if we had water contamination before, or they'd run lousy, this whole time the saws ran great.   

As for running the saw richer on oil mix, my dealer told me I should have had that covered with mixing a 2.5 gallon oil mix in less than two gallons of gas, he also told me stihl had done research that even at the correct mix, not making it richer, the saws were designed to operate at even much colder conditions than we were running, even starting them cold in extreme conditions and it still shouldn't damage the saw, which is was I'd been told by many dealers and repair guys over the years.   

On my small saw, i had the muffler off and had to realign the gaskets when it came loose, that was done on the last tank of gas when the saw locked up, so in essence the saw never burned a whole tank through it before locking up or the remaining gas in the tank is what did the damage, there was nothing scored on the piston at the time I took the muffler off, where the piston is scored now, its fully visible through the exhaust port when the muffler is off.    The fix it guy told me the saw looked good, had the mix in it, had nice lubricity when he rubbed his fingers in it and dumped it out of the saws tank and looked at it in a glass.   He basically didn't know of all the years he's been around, he was totally stumped as to what went wrong.   I can't complain, I told him things do go wrong, of all the saws I'd ever run we'd never had an issue before, my sole concern was what caused it and what to do differently so it never happened again and the other unknown at this point is..............my 660, is that shelled too??

We've operated at a lot colder temps than this before, done it many times over the years, thinking back now, we usually buck up firewood on weekends or when schools cancelled due to weather issues and that's when we work up firewood for some reason, in fact until the last two years, we never had a heated shop to do anything in and the saws would sit out in one of the sheds, started cold or we'd put then in the basement of the house also not heated.

I was just curious if anyone had an idea off the top of their head or had seen something like this before, all the oil mix bottles were sealed when I put them in, all were stihl brand I got at the local dealer, we either buy the six pack of 2.5 gallon mix's or 5 gallon mixes, this time we were using up some 2.5 gallon mixes we had on hand.

bandmiller2

I would guess both saws carbs were adjusted for warm weather right on the edge of "too lean" and the cold put them over the edge, a lean burn. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

OneWithWood

My MS460 did the exact same thing.  I also was using fresh gas mixed 50:1.  The decompression valve came apart and a piece made its way into the cylinder. Tore it down and the piston was scored, the rings were trapped and there was a deposit on the cylinder.  I cleaned up the cylinder and the piston. Made sure the rings were free and reassembled.  I will try and start it today to see if I have salvaged it or not.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Randy88

We hashed over options and decided to trade in the 361 as is for a new 362 which I got this morning, my dealer is putting a cylinder and piston on my 460 and putting that back to good again, we discussed more things than I ever knew could exist and he told me he'd been servicing my saws for so many years, and the only major recommendation he could come up with was to switch to synthetic oil for the gas mix.   It would double the warranty on my new 362 and this morning I left with a six pack of oil, I'm going to dump out the gas mix we have on hand, dump out the gas on my 660 and try for round two only using synthetic oil this time.   

red oaks lumber

lean burndown :( we see it tuning sleds all the time.
they prolly cut like banchies before their timely demise :)
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Yatt

Sorry to hear about your saws. >:(

It sure sounds like a lean condition. 


The new auto tune saws get a bad wrap from people on things that in all likelihood had nothing to do with the auto tune technology.  In this instance this would have been prevented with auto tune technology.
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sharkey

Surly a mystery.  Could you have accidentally grabbed a different can?  Mix at 32:1 from now on?

Philbert

Sorry about your saws.  Sounds like you were careful with storing and mixing your fuel.

From my armchair, I am going with AK Doug, Bandmiller2, and the others on the temps.  Your fuel was not mixed too lean (gas to oil mix), but your carb could have been adjusted too lean (fuel to air mix) for the cold temps. 

If your saws were last adjusted in much warmer weather, the change in air density could have made a difference.  Guys sometimes have similar problems with big changes in elevation.

Philbert

Al_Smith

Quote from: sharkey on February 03, 2014, 06:35:08 PM
Surly a mystery.  Could you have accidentally grabbed a different can?  Mix at 32:1 from now on?
You know I nearly did that .Head square in buttocks I mixed one can of 32 to 1 ratio oil in two gallons of gasoline .The problem being it took two little jugs,one per gallon .I discovered the problem before it got dumped in any saw .Unsure of exactly what I had done the fuel got dumped into a 1962 CJ 5 Jeep which could care less .

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