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New log turner/clamp idea

Started by etroup10, January 28, 2014, 09:34:49 PM

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etroup10

I don't have a mill yet, but I am hoping to get an EZ Boardwalk, which is an all manual mill. I have been reading and it seems that turning the log/cant is often the most time consuming and back breaking part of a manual mill. I then came up with an idea for turning logs on an all manual mill after watching a video of a scragg mill on youtube. In the video the log is clamped in at each end with a chuck similar to that of a lathe. After passing through the saw the chucks rotate the log to make a cant. My idea is to do something similar to this on a manual mill. To do this there would be one stationary chuck where the saw head starts and another one at the other end of the mill that would be able to move up and down the track on a cart. The cart for the second chuck would be either on another track under the mill or in the case of the EZ Boardwalk ride in the gap of the c-channel track. At the saw head end of the mill, the rod that supports the chuck would be extended out the back and have a handle on it. There would the be positions for the handle to lock into such as 0°, 30°, 45°, 90° etc. You would also have two jacks/cylinders sticking up through the frame of the mill to lift the logs up to the chucks(this would get the log off the frame of the mill and would allow for easier turning). A winch on the cart(that is attached to the other end of the mill) would be used to pull the cart towards the log and both chucks would then bite into each end of the log. The jacks would then be dropped and you would start sawing. After opening up the first cut the log would be rotated by unlocking the handle and rotating it to the desired position.

I believe this would have several advantages. Since the log is off the mill, and it is pretty well balanced, it would be much easier to turn. The handle would also allow for quick and accurate turning and give you the opportunity to easily cut weird angles/siding. The two jacks would allow you to easily adjust for taper. And instead of having to drag boards off the back of the mill, they would just fall off(maybe on to rollers) when you rotate the log. You also don't have to worry about hitting the log clamps which seems to be a problem with most of you guys on here  :D . I believe an all manual version of this would require a little bit more set up time when the log is first put on the mill. But I think in the long run it would save a lot of time, especially if you are rotating the log a lot to get the best boards. I realize there would also be several disadvantages too. One would be that your final board would be roughly a 4"x4". Straight logs would be much better for this type of turner so that the logs are not too far out of balance. This turner would also not work well if you are cutting something like dimensional lumber where you have a couple of cants on the mill at a time and want to cut a couple boards in each pass. However I intend to make it so that the mill can still be used without using the turner for the instances I just mentioned.

It should be pretty easy to replace the jacks with hydraulic cylinders and the winch with an automatic winch. Which would reduce the set up time. I have also considered the possibility of powering the turner with a stepper motor and being able to simply hit a button to rotate the log to whatever position you want, but that is way in the future. I also made a model of my idea on google sketch up and here are a few pictures.




This image shows the back of the turner where the handle can lock into different positions like 0°, 90°, 30°, 45°, 60° and a position for siding.

Let me know what you guys think of my idea! I am interested to know what you guys think. I also wonder on what the log capacity of this type of turner would be since it is putting a lot of pressure on a few spots.
NHLA 187th class, lumber inspector. EZ Boardwalk 40 with homemade hydraulics; Gafner Hydraloader; custom built edger, Massey Ferguson 50E, American Sawmill 20" Pony Planer; Husqvarna 55 Rancher

beenthere

etroup
Interesting concept, and hope you pursue it further.

south central Wisconsin
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justallan1

I'm interested in the responses you will get on this and sure hope you can make it work.
I'd mainly be concerned with any bowed logs and trying to turn it with a fixed crank and going over top center and the momentum of it busting me up, versus a cant hook that will let go when I let go. My main thing is safety. Another thing to think on is how much sag you will have in a log/cant when it starts getting smaller.
Good luck, I hope it works for you.

Allan

Jeff

He could create a reversible ratchet system like used on a hand winch to have controlled rotation.
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etroup10

Quote from: justallan1 on January 28, 2014, 10:15:56 PM
I'd mainly be concerned with any bowed logs and trying to turn it with a fixed crank and going over top center and the momentum of it busting me up, versus a cant hook that will let go when I let go.

Yeah, bowed logs would be an issue. I mentioned this would only be used for fairly straight logs. With the bowed logs I would still plan on milling them on the original frame of the mill if I got any. But bowed logs would put a big hurting on production. I'm hoping this system, once hydraulics are added, will be able to produce a decent amount of RR ties.
NHLA 187th class, lumber inspector. EZ Boardwalk 40 with homemade hydraulics; Gafner Hydraloader; custom built edger, Massey Ferguson 50E, American Sawmill 20" Pony Planer; Husqvarna 55 Rancher

Ianab

Similar idea to this?



That's set under a Lucas mill, but the exact type of mill doesn't really matter.
Works best with smaller logs. but by indexing it you can easily cut octagonal posts etc. Could be a nice practical way to saw out cedar posts from smaller logs?

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

justallan1

Good call, Jeff. That would work basically how I use mine. When it decides to go, I get out of the way and let it roll into the stops.

Allan

hackberry jake

I have thought about an "end dog" setup on a personal mill before. The concept is great. Only real drawbacks i see is 1. Most end dog mills need to leave at least a 5x5 cant in tue center. And 2. Manual positioning would be a bear to keep up with both sides. The easiest option would be to use a setworks type system that moved both dogs in unison. I like the concept a lot. I cant wait to see some progress on the build  8)
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EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

Ianab

The idea on the rig I posted is that one end was manually rotated, with the opposite end free to rotate, basically like the free end of a wood lathe. You can have an indent wheel and pawl to set the position to various preset angles.



Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

47sawdust

Check out elk42's gallery.He has an lt15 with an extended track and winch system to turn logs.different design from your suggestion but very clever.
Good luck,lot of ingenious people here.
Mick
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

Ron Wenrich

After you put hydraulics on it, its no longer a manual mill.  At that point, it would be probably quicker to put on a chain turner and backstops.  It would also lessen the problem of bowed logs.  You will also have to center your logs, which means your jig is going to have to move up and down, and probably left and right to accommodate the differences in log size.  I imagine if you get the weight off center, it will cause other problems.

You have to also account for the time it will take to fasten your endstock as to whether it's quicker.  If you can't do it quicker, you'll be back using the Logrite to turn logs, especially the small ones.  End dogging and turning works on scragg mills because they aren't turning any big logs and logs are of a consistent size and shape. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bandmiller2

Welcome #10, what your thinking about will work and would be most practical to produce special products like wood pillars, tapered siding est. By the time you get all your hydraulics you would probably be ahead of the game with a conventional log turning system. Logs are heavy in the neighborhood of a ton and would require some heavy duty apparatus to turn and handle safely. What I'am trying to say mate is yes it would work but you would probably be better off with standard hydraulic turners. If you have the ability go for it, Just make it reversible if your not happy with it. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Too Big To Fail

I'm actually just starting the process of building something similar for cutting posts out of cedar and other small, tough to clamp logs.  Mine will be fixed in the vertical axis, but since I will only be cutting small light logs I don't think it will be too much of a problem to lift them into position using a couple tapered boards.  I will be able to move it forward and back to locked (pinned) positions, but my logs will need to be cut to length. 
My operator side has an acme screw tapered to a point to pinch the log to the other end. The helper end has two prongs to keep it in relative position, and a disc with holes every 45 degrees to receive a spring pin to lock it in place as my helper spins it after each cut.  Like somebody said, I will be able to cut square and octagonal posts. 
Mine is a two man operation, but I think it will save time clamping gnarly cedar.  And because I will spear the log in the pith I should get nice straight stress-free posts every time.
Funny you should post your idea now, I'm going to the machinist to pick up my locking disc today- I guess the long winter is giving us all ideas, and there's only so many ideas to go around :D
I've been calling it my cedar spinner, or the log-kabob.

york

et10,this idea is not new-i believe years ago Kasco played around with this concept and give it up,but then i could be wrong-your logs would need is be straight and end trimmed-i have to agree with others,you just can`t beat a good chain turner.....albert
Albert

dboyt

Cool idea!  Once you mill it into a cant, you could set the log back on the bunks to re-saw it into boards.  It will be an interesting design challenge!
Norwood MX34 Pro portable sawmill, 8N Ford, Lewis Winch

etroup10

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on January 29, 2014, 06:17:20 AM
  You will also have to center your logs, which means your jig is going to have to move up and down, and probably left and right to accommodate the differences in log size.  I imagine if you get the weight off center, it will cause other problems.

I was thinking that the "Y" shape on the log lifters would center the log in the left to right direction. The jig wouldn't need to move up and down. The dogs would be located at a set position(maybe 15" off the mill frame) and the log would be lifted with either jacks or hydraulic cylinders to center the log at each end on the vertical plane. This would also adjust for taper.
NHLA 187th class, lumber inspector. EZ Boardwalk 40 with homemade hydraulics; Gafner Hydraloader; custom built edger, Massey Ferguson 50E, American Sawmill 20" Pony Planer; Husqvarna 55 Rancher

etroup10

Quote from: Jeff on January 28, 2014, 10:18:21 PM
He could create a reversible ratchet system like used on a hand winch to have controlled rotation.

Do you think it would be better to control the turning in a way similar to how the saw head height is controlled? It would have to be geared to make the turning easier, but would be safer and it would make it easier to add setworks later on.
NHLA 187th class, lumber inspector. EZ Boardwalk 40 with homemade hydraulics; Gafner Hydraloader; custom built edger, Massey Ferguson 50E, American Sawmill 20" Pony Planer; Husqvarna 55 Rancher

Nomad

     It sounds a lot like a Lathe-Mizer to me, without the motor.
Buying a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter
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Lucas DSM23-19

backwoods sawyer

I find it easier to turn logs then to lift them,
however the "Y" system works we called then the "VEE'S"
The vee's used a sharp chain to turn the log the hydraulic motor was located about a foot below the vees the chain ran down one slope around the drive sproketback up the other slope and the idler sprocket was about a foot below the drive motor both vee's turned together. Hope you can follow that as my drawing, well I could not decifer it :-\
to lift the log so it could be turned the vee's were mounted on the ends of hydraulic cylinders, all hydralics were ran by temposonics  to aid the scanner in positioning the log correctly.
down size this to what you are working with.
A pair of log rites do turn logs with out all the hydraulics ;D
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Oldtimesnew

I think your idea is awesome, and I hope you've had a chance to create it.  Did you post your sketchup online anywhere?  I've got an EZ boardwalk and would love to be able to work with it in a 3D environment, but don't have your chops to create it so fully.  So interesting to see this generation embracing technology to solve their practical woodworking aspirations.  Keep it up.

Tim

Brucer

Yep, as Nomad says, it's pretty much the same idea as a Lathe-Mizer. The name's a little misleading because the Lathe-Mizer has an indexing system that lets you cut a hexagon or an octagon (in exactly the describe in the original post).

Once you've cut an octagonal shaped log, you can turn it (slowly) with an electric motor and use the bandsaw blade to "turn" the cant as you would on a lathe.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

RazrRebel

I'm still gathering parts for my mill build. I've been thinking about how to turn the really big ones too. I would think a couple of floor jacks, one on each end, with a small roller cradle would work. Just jack each end up then turn it by hand or a short handled cant hook. Then lower it back down, and dog it off. Just thinking it would be quicker, maybe I'm over simplifying things?

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