Electrical help needed (installing additional circuit in kitchen)

[Piston]

I installed a new circuit of outlets in my kitchen.  I have 5 outlets on the circuit, using 12/2 Romex for wiring, all the outlets are rated for 20amps.  I have the first outlet in the series a GFCI which is also the outlet closest to the sink.

I installed a 15amp circuit breaker in the main panel. 

As soon as I energize the breaker, the GFCI outlet trips almost instantly.  I do have one of those testers that you plug into the outlet and it lights up with specific lights telling which wiring is correct or incorrect. 

I believe all the wiring is correct.  The way I tested it was, I would reset the GFCI outlet, plug in the tester, then have my wife energize the breaker, and I could see the two lights that indicate "correctly wired" light up and immediately go out when the GFCI tripped. 
I repeated that process for the remaining 4 outlets, and all of them show as "correctly wired". 

Would the GFCI be tripping because I am only using a 15A breaker, where it's rated for 20A? 

Could it be that I have too many outlets in the series beyond the GFCI? 

[beenthere]

If the GFCI is good (working correctly) then the only thing that will trip it is if there is a drain off the hot that would cause an imballance between the hot and neutral (something touching the hot or maybe the neutral to ground).

But to test your 15 amp breaker theory, hook the hot line up to a 20 amp.

Also, then disconnect the outlets downline from the GFCI, and test it alone.
I'm thinking you have a ground fault somewhere and just need to track it down.
Add an outlet at a time until you find the culprit.

[Larry]

Would the GFCI be tripping because I am only using a 15A breaker, where it's rated for 20A? 

Could it be that I have too many outlets in the series beyond the GFCI?

No

Your feed and field sides could be reversed even though they appear wired correctly.

[21incher]

There is a line side and a load side on the GFCI The line side is connected to the circuit box and the load side connects to the additional protected outlets. Make sure it is not switched. Amps of the breaker should not affect it is most likely a leakage to ground or a defective GFCI if the wiring is all right.

[Holmes]

  It could also be a bad GFCI.  You could try disconnecting all the other outlets and see if it trips.  In Ma. I believe you can have 2 outlets per GFCI circuit.  There are some things [treadmill] that will not work with a GFCI and will trip them immediately.

[firecord]

Is your breaker a fault protected type?  Did you change anything in the panel?  If the answers to the first questions are no then you have a fault. Remove the hot and neutral wires from your panel and test them with your meter against the ground wire. move from plug to plug till you find it. If you have a fault type breaker in the panel then you most probably wired the wrong common wire into the breaker.  Ive done it before when adding more than one curcit, all the white wlres. look alike. If so it will trip with any load!  If you not getting inspected you can put as many as you want behind the gf. Outlet.

[r.man]

All GFIs have a line and load, make sure the power from the panel and the white from the panel are on the line side and on the correct screws. Brass for black, silver for white.  At the same time remove the load wires and power up the GFI. Most GFIs will not reset unless power is present at them. If it trips it is bad. Power off, add the load wires, making sure brass black silver white. Power on, if it trips remove the secondary wires on the next plug and repeat until you narrow down the problem. The most likely places are the box clamps being too tight, an overdriven staple or a ground wire that was not folded properly and is touching a live. If your GFI is 20 amp rated you should use a 20 amp breaker, more likely to hold a double load at the kitchen. You are using a single breaker with the white neutral on the neutral bar?

[DDDfarmer]

I would test the GFI first.  We had 2 or 3 new GFI outlets at work that were bad right out of the box.  It had our electrician *pithed right off, kept him busy for a little while  ;D

[Chuck White]

I would test the GFI first.  We had 2 or 3 new GFI outlets at work that were bad right out of the box.  It had our electrician *pithed right off, kept him busy for a little while  ;D

Very true, I've had a few GFCI outlet the were bad before they even left the store!

[LaneC]

When you say you are using 12-2, is that 12-2 with a ground? There should be a black, white and bare ground wire for the ground. I am assuming you have the 12-2 with ground, and are hooking the bare ground to the ground post of the receptacle and the white to the neutral of the receptacle. If not ,you need to have that ground wire along with the other 2 conductors.

[Small Slick]

Finally a topic I know something about!  The previous posters were right. It is crucial that line and load are correct on the gfi. Line is power coming in to the gfi and load is the power going out. The black wires go on the brass screws.  The white wires go on the silver screws. It doesn't matter how many outlets are downstream of the gfi. It doesn't matter if the gfi is 20 amps and the breaker is 15. It matters that the breaker is sized right for the wire which is a 15 amp breaker on 14 gauge wire and a 20 amp breaker on 12 gauge wire. Chances are the ground in one of the boxes is touching either the black or white wire or the screws on the outlets(doesn't matter which it is touching or which outlet it touches in) the wires have to be tucked in just so, or else they can touch each other.

So make sure your line and load is right. Then make sure the wires don't touch each other. If you have to continue trouble shooting it which can be done as long as its already torn open. Pull the load wires off the gfi which should be the first outlet in the set. Turn on the breaker and see if it holds. If it does shut it off and put the load wires back on.   If it doesn't hold your problem is probably a bad gfi. Keep taking the load wires off and turning on the breaker in order to isolate the problem.  Also the bare ground wires go on the green ground screws.   You don't need a gfi breaker you certainly don't need both gfi breakers and gfi outlets on the same circuit. That is too confusing.

[Holmes]

 Welcome to the FF  Small Slick..  Excellent post, and I am curious do you happen to be an electrician? 

[Small Slick]

Yes I am. My dad started a contracting company after the factory he was maintenance for closed. I was 14 when that happened and have been in and out of the trade ever since. I now own the business with my brother so I don't work in the field much anymore. We have 12 employees right now.

Thanks for the welcome.

John

[Holmes]

Yes I am. My dad started a contracting company after the factory he was maintenance for closed. I was 14 when that happened and have been in and out of the trade ever since. I now own the business with my brother so I don't work in the field much anymore. We have 12 employees right now.

Thanks for the welcome.

John

Good for you.  I had 6 employees at one time  1 that worked for the 5 that worked against me. :D  I bet you know the feeling ;D

[Piston]

Thanks for all your suggestions. 

I'm going to start with making sure the line and load are correct on the GFI outlet first.  Then I'll go from there.  If I can't fix it with all your advice then there is something wrong  :D

Stay tuned....

[Small Slick]

Yes I am. My dad started a contracting company after the factory he was maintenance for closed. I was 14 when that happened and have been in and out of the trade ever since. I now own the business with my brother so I don't work in the field much anymore. We have 12 employees right now.

Thanks for the welcome.

John

Good for you.  I had 6 employees at one time  1 that worked for the 5 that worked against me. :D  I bet you know the feeling ;D

We had one work against us so effectively that we put off transfer of ownership for three years!  Too bad she didn't work that hard at being a good electrician.

[Piston]

Made "some" good progress anyways....

Between having to help my father pick up an old wood stove, play with the baby, and wait on my sick wife, I've been trying to trouble shoot the electric... ;D

I disconnected the load side of the GFI outlet, so just the GFI was connected and no other 'downstream' outlets.  It worked.  I figured I must have messed up the wiring somewhere down the line.  However, just for kicks, I figured I'd try replacing the GFI outlet with a new one to see if it was bad.  I didn't have a spare GFI so I put a standard outlet in.  I hooked everything up as normal and now all the outlets work?  I figured if I had bad wiring, my breaker in the panel would trip right?

I am going to run to Lowes for a new GFI outlet and try that, as soon as the baby goes down for a nap  ;D

Okay, now, apparently when I bought new outlets and installed them originally, I bought some type of "childproof" outlet????   (Inappropriate language edited by Admin)

I literally can NOT plug ANYTHING in to some of them.  3 out of the 5 I can't plug anything into, and of the there 2, one was the GFI and the other one I can plug something into the top part, but not the bottom.  Are these freaking things supposed to actually work?  Now I have to go buy all new outlets and replace the "childproof" ones with normal ones. 

These are not only childproof, they're also "Matt proof"!   :D  Now, I'm usually a pretty patient person and I don't tend to get worked up very easy, but these outlets were REALLY trying my patience!   >:(

[Small Slick]

Matt, the purpose and performance of a gfi vs a breaker are very different. A gfi measures the current coming in on the black wire and compares that to the current going back on the white wire. A very small difference will trigger the gfi this is designed to protect people. A breaker senses heat build up and dead short circuits this is to protect equipment.

Simply putting in a standard outlet will not tell you if the wiring is or was correct. You need the gfi in the kitchen to trip really fast if you drop your toaster in the sink.

Yes tamper/child resistant outlets are a pita!  Welcome to the nanny state where the govt will protect you.

Be patient probably your issue is that your wires in the boxes are either too long and hard to fit back in the box or they are too short and you don't have enough leverage to fold them out of the way. If any of them are touching each other or if the white or blacks are touching a grounded piece of metal the gfi will trigger.

I went to a job last summer where a customer handed me 20-25 sheets printed from the net and said he had spent a week trying to figure out a stacked switch and some kitchen gfi s. I had him fixed up and going in 45 minutes. Point being just like reading and sawing logs, Experiance comes with time and practice.

[beenthere]

I figured if I had bad wiring, my breaker in the panel would trip right?

No, that is not right. As Slick says it well, something is causing the problem down line.
Pull all your outlets and look for where you may have switched wires to the wrong posts.  Check them out, and I see no good reason to suspect your GFCI is wrong.

If anything, buy new outlets that are not made in China and are not child-proof meaning adults have trouble with them.

Be careful.

[Holmes]

 Those tamper proof outlets , you need to apply pressure to the 2 prongs evenly and equally and hard.  I've been stumped by a few of those Dang things.

[Windy_Acres]

Im not an electrician (which I will prove, just give me a second  ;D), I read the entire thread, someone riddle me this, why is he running a 15a breaker on a 12-2 romex ? Did he install 15a receptacles ?

Whats the point of 12-2 on a 15a circuit. I understand exceeding code, but in a kitchen ? I put 4- 20a circuits in my kitchen with 12-2 and 20 amp receptacles (isolated the fridge and the microwave), and the lighting has its own circuit, and she has still managed to trip a breaker. Now Im wishing I had put 5 in, Im probably going to add a new one to the island.

My experience is that after the shop, the kitchen needs the next greatest amount of available amps. That is, if the kitchen is utilized. Might be something for the OP to consider if he is changing out the receptacles again.

[r.man]

20 amp outlets are fairly new in wiring in Ontario for kitchens. The new rule says that any outlets within about 3 ft of a hand washing station need to be GFI protected. Because of the relatively heavy loads in the kitchen a 20 amp GFI was introduced. Here if it is away from the sink 3 ft a split receptacle is the best option. 15 amps available on the top and 15 amps on the bottom, nobodies wife can trip them with a normal appliance. The only reason to run 12/2 wire is if you want to have a 20 amp breaker. It is harder to work with, more expensive and not needed for normal use. The tamper proof receptacles are a good thing but like most good things you have to get used to them. Make sure the prongs are both trying to go in at the same time and give them a little wiggle. If you continue having problems get a child to help, same as the remote control.

[Holmes]

 Here in Ma. kitchen outlets are required to be 20 amp.  Piston ran the correct size wire he now just needs to change the breaker.

[beenthere]

In our area of WI, code for a kitchen has been for two 20 amp circuits with every duplex outlet separated and each side on a different circuit. That has been code since at least 1964, (?? that is 50 years  ). 

No reason obvious why Piston put the circuit on a 15 amp breaker unless they are 15 amp outlets, as you mentioned. Hopefully they are 20 amp outlets and he will just go with a 20 amp breaker. ;)

The child proof outlets don't seem necessary if they are protected with the GFCI.

[Piston]

For everyone who said that the GFI wasn't faulty, and I had a problem down the line...you were right  ;D

I ended up replacing the GFI outlet, and of course, the same thing still happened, it tripped the second I energized the breaker. 

Since I instantly developed a hatred for tamper proof outlets, I decided to change them all out to standard outlets without that plastic insert in them.

At the same time, I was inspecting all my wiring and made sure it was correct.  I did have all the wiring correct, but on the 4th outlet down the line, I noticed a large "slice" in the insulation around the black wire.  I cut it back and connected it again.  Then energized my breaker and WAH LAH!  Everything worked!  It was time for a beer  ;D

Thanks to everyone who helped out, on top of finding the problem with your help, I learned quite a bit as well.  I knew I'd come to the right place  ;D