New and looking for 460 info?

[chainsaw samurai]

Hi all, I am a motorcycle mechanic by trade and love tinkering with anything with an engine. Also love the outdoors and cutting wood-on a camping or hunting trip or filling out some wood permits to enjoy a fire at the house or heat my shop. I just got done with a complete rebuild of a MS460 I got off ebay. I have always wanted this saw and since Stihl replaced it with an emissions version, I had to build a like new one. I replaced everything but the cases(which I had powder coated to look as new),crankshaft, flywheel, Piston and cylinder(they looked great but I did re-crosshatch and installed new rings), and the generator. I used 100% stihl parts(except the dual port muffler. I have a new 25" ES bar and a few 33RSF and RS chains, a 7 and 8 tooth rim sprockets. So what works best with what lol? We mostly are into pine and cedar up here. My buddies and I take our wood cutting very serious and get very competitive so please give me some tips so I have an even more unfair advantage. Thanks tons(go Broncos).

[joe_indi]

Hi  chainsaw samurai,
With what you've got and the dual port muffler, RS chain is good, so is that 8 tooth rim sprocket.
If you can replace the 0.68 fixed jet in the carb with a more generous 0.70 jet.
If you are willing to do it, tap out the valve jet, use a safety pin tip to pull out the installed steel mesh on the valve jet and then tap it back in place.You will have something similar to the pre-1997 carb set up now. More generous with the fuel when its actually needed.
Joe

[AdkStihl]

I pulled the HD-17A(0.66 jet) carb off my 10mm 044 last week and replaced it with a (NIB) HD-16(0.70 jet).
WOW!! Nuff said.



 

[Andyshine77]

If you want a real advantage have the saw ported. In 20" wood and under an 8 pin may cut a little faster, but you'll have to be light headed. A 7 pin well be more forgiving, and with the chain setup correctly a 7 pin will be the way to go IMHO

Not sure what people mean when they say the new 461 is an emissions saw. Yes it meets compliance, but all Stihl did was improve efficiency. They did so by decreasing case volume and increasing flow with quad transfer ports. Stihl didn't just drop a cat in the exhaust can. Stock vs stock the 461 is quite a bit stronger than the 460, especially when it comes to torque.

[chainsaw samurai]

Thanks guys!
   As far as the jetting goes- I am up at 6000ft in town and regularly  will use the saw at 7-8500ft, so is the bigger jet still advisable?
  It takes like 2min to change rims so I guess I can just try them both and decide which one I like better.
I wasn't sure what the changes were exactly to the 461(and the Stihl dealer was really not very helpful) I just did not like the sound of "reduced emissions". Though that and improved fuel economy usually does mean improved efficiency which is never a bad thing. I was also afraid there would be a bunch of stuff in there that I was totally unfamiliar with.
  When you say ported would this be the same type of modifications I would make to a 2 stroke dirtbike/snow mobile cylinder. Or is it something else like changing the port timing and modifying the piston ?
the transfer ports look a little hard to get at, but the intake and exhaust would be easy to smooth and blend.
   Also any recommendations on breaking the new rings in. They appeared to be ductile iron riding on Nikisil coating? I will run Belray MC-1 (their synthetic air cooled formula) at 40-1 unless you have better suggestions.
   The aftermarket muffler is just open with no baffle would it do anything to run the stock(baffled muffler) with the dual port cover from the after market one ? are there any internal muffler tricks?
   When you "tune" the rakers is it just by trial in the specific wood type or is there standard lowered height for say pine and a different height (and maybe sprocket change) when getting into the harder cedar?
                                       Thanks again, Lance

[AdkStihl]

you'll have to be light headed.

I usually am.... ;D

[Andyshine77]

you'll have to be light headed.

I usually am.... ;D

Smart phones aren't always smart.

[JohnG28]

You're correct about the Nikasil coated cylinder. And to the effect,  don't hone it in the future. The coating is really thin and you risk damaging it. I have a 7 pin sprocket and run a 20" or 24" bar on mine, they're both good in anything I've got into. Have a dual port muffler on mine also. And if I remember from a thread a while back, the jet was only smaller on early 460s and 046s. Joe and ADK, you don't remember?  ??? :D :D

[clww]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, chainsaw samurai.

[chainsaw samurai]

Thanks!
  I used a ball(flex) hone 320 grit wasn't even in there for 5 seconds so I hope I did not screw anything up.
I found a NIB HD 16-318 carb for a reasonable price I am going to pull my carb off tonight and see what size jet it has before I buy the new one. I don't know how to tell the manufacture date on the saw. The carb that I bought from the stihl dealer just had the 1128-120-0623 part number and I was ignorant that number covered different versions. I cant even find the jet by itself-again the stihl dealers are not that much help here. I just ordered a parts manual for the saw so I can just give the dealer part numbers to order. Maybe the jet Part # will be in there ?
  I guess I will just "ride it like I stole it" to coin a motorcycle expression- as far as any break-in time. We are going up after a few chords next sat. I can't wait to see how it does. My one buddy just bought a brand new MS660-I guess they still have some left. He will be running it out of the box, I hope my 460 can keep up :'(.
   Thanks again all, Lance

[Andyshine77]

There is nothing wrong with honing Nikasil. Yes the Nikasil coating is thin, but it's hard as Hell. I personally don't care for the ball hones, they're hard on the port edges. I prefer using a flap wheel, and you'd be surprised how well some of the scored up cylinders I've worked on turned out.

Here are two videos from Mastermind. It will give you a good idea how to hone and save old cylinders. Mastermind does good work, and his saws run very well.

http://youtu.be/cksVNkI4zps
http://youtu.be/VuMlesup53o   

Samurai give me the serial number and I'll look up your saw, if it was registered I'll be able give you the date of purchase. I also have the parts list and service manuals, just shoot me your Email address in a PM if you want them.
 

[joe_indi]

Instead of honing the whole cylinder I use an electric chain sharpener, of the type shown in the picture.The stone that I use is for non ferrous metals such as aluminum, copper, brass etc.
Its possible to remove the piston deposits stuck on the cylinder walls without  leaving any marks on the cylinder. The job lasts only a couple of minutes.
This has been my primary 'weapon' for repairing engines with seized pistons.
   

[AdkStihl]

Nice safety shoes 

[joe_indi]

Nice safety shoes 

:D

[chainsaw samurai]

Thanks for the info! So from what I am seeing it is not necessary to leave some kind of Cross hatch on the cylinder to hold oil for ring seal? And just because a cylinder appears scored it might just be aluminum from the piston transferred to the coating ? This is great info if I can reuse a factory stihl cylinder- they sure are pricey and I don't know anything about the aftermarket cylinder kits as far as quality/durability. Except that most are made in china or Taiwan and some from Italy ? I just checked compression on my saw it was 125psi up here(6000ft) and I know the rings probably haven't seated and sealed completely yet does that sound about right? When I was putting it together I was trying to figure out a way to measure the deck height or the quench area in the combustion chamber to see if there was anyway to increase the static CR. On a dirt bike you can shave the head. I was wondering if you could shave the bottom of the cylinder just slightly so it doesn't affect the port timing but maybe that is getting a little carried away.

[joe_indi]

........... When I was putting it together I was trying to figure out a way to measure the deck height or the quench area in the combustion chamber to see if there was anyway to increase the static CR. On a dirt bike you can shave the head. I was wondering if you could shave the bottom of the cylinder just slightly so it doesn't affect the port timing but maybe that is getting a little carried away.

Earlier when the topic of compression ratio came up on another thread a simple suggestion was made for a temporary trial.
Remove the base gasket (0.3mm thick) and use a liquid gasket instead.This way you lower the cylinder near abouts 0.3mm.
If by quench you mean squish, its easily measured with the trusty soldering lead and a vernier.

[Red Good]

Does no one use muriatic acid too remove stuck on piston ? I have never used mechanical methods to remove deposits . Nicasil needs no crosshatch just the correct rings for the application .

Welcome to the forum Samuri .

[JohnG28]

While you are breaking in the rebuild run the H side a little rich for a few tanks and then retune the carb. I have run my 460 along side a 660 when taking out 5 large while Oaks last fall. The 460 obviously doesn't have the same power and torque in larger wood, and did better on the ~30" Oak, but the 460 isn't far behind and is a lot easier to swing for hours. I think you'll like it,  I do. Oh, and welcome to the forum. 

[chainsaw samurai]

Thanks guys ! I buried it in some old 18" Elm rounds I had for testing today. I tried it with 2 sprockets and 2 chains.
   1st cuts- 33RS/8 tooth: cut pretty good had to be light headed(handed :D) on it, if I let the saw really bite it would bog. I was pretty happy considering how hard this wood is.
   2nd cuts- 33RSF/8tooth : Way better. could just let the weight of the saw eat right through it. You could tell it was working hard though.
   3rd cuts- 33RS/7 tooth- holy smoke! The chips were shooting out of the saw like fire hose, absolutely no bog letting the saw do the work. Hooking the dogs would still way bog it down.
   4th cuts-33RSF/7tooth- the saw sounded faster in the wood but I don't think it was cutting as fast as the full compliment chain was but it still was flying through that hard dead elm.
  Can't wait till next Sat. I am so ready! It has been a blast tinkering with this thing can't wait to do more. Jets, ports, pipes I'm hooked! My friend with the 660 is gonna have his work cut out. These saws are gonna have our trucks filled so fast the wives are going to think we just bought a couple truck loads and spent the rest of the day drinking beer. With the 390(mine) and the 311(his) we were so busy cutting we didn't have much beer time ;).
    Thanks for all the advice and warm welcome, Lance

[Andyshine77]

Elm is pretty nasty stuff to cut. Glad you're having fun, it's a fun hobby.

[chainsaw samurai]

Yes! I noticed the elm took its toll on both chains with the few cuts they made they will need to be sharpened before the trip. My buddy has the real nice Oregon sharpener, its a good deal he sharpens our chains and I fix/maintenance the saws.  I will throw a brand new RS on the saw  and have those for back up. 

[chainsaw samurai]

Earlier when the topic of compression ratio came up on another thread a simple suggestion was made for a temporary trial.
Remove the base gasket (0.3mm thick) and use a liquid gasket instead.This way you lower the cylinder near abouts 0.3mm.
If by quench you mean squish, its easily measured with the trusty soldering lead and a vernier??
   I must know more about this procedure please. I am having a hard time finding stuff on this forum.
   When I was assembling I tried to use play doh and measure the thickness but it was a disaster-thought I used enough WD on the combustion chamber, but I ended up re-washing the cylinder in the dish washer(wife always loves that).
  Will it seal without the gasket and just sealer? I usually do the machine work to the clearance I want w/o the head and base gaskets and let the gasket thicknesses be my "cush".
  I don't even know where to start with chainsaw clearances-I can't find many.
   These tiny cylinders with no removable head make things challenging. Plus it looks like I will have to make some kind of jig/fixture to hold it in the old Bridgeport. I have been searching ytube for some how too but have come up short. I will see if Mastermind has any videos on the subject.   Thanks

[Andyshine77]

This is one method for checking squish.
http://youtu.be/XCpX1Mt3BJ0

You can also check squish with the cylinder on the saw. Insert two pieces of solder bent 90° through the sparkplug hole, and line them up 180° from one another, across the wrist pin. Make sure the solder in against the bore, and the piston is up high enough to block of the exhaust and transfer ports, you don't want the solder to catch in them.

.020" of clearance is a good basic safe number to look for.   

[chainsaw samurai]

Hi all, Had a business op out of town for a bit. Thanks for the solder trick I never would have thought of that. I took the gasket out and snugged the cyl. down and got .026" average of three. measured the base gasket and came up w/.030" measured a new aftermarket gasket and it was .017". so I cut off .020, stuck in the aftermarket gasket and I am at .021". I don't think it messed with the timing too much, The saw runs unbelievable. The idle did get a little sloppy when its down were the chain doesn't move(3100).

  We have been buried in snow up here so it is looking like 1st weekend in Mar till I get to see how it really does. Can't wait! My buddy is asking me if they make a dual port for his 660(he doesn't give a crap about the warranty). I am wondering if I could just open up that pencil diameter sized hole in his stock muffler?
     Thanks again for all the help!

[Andyshine77]

  We have been buried in snow up here so it is looking like 1st weekend in Mar till I get to see how it really does. Can't wait! My buddy is asking me if they make a dual port for his 660(he doesn't give a crap about the warranty). I am wondering if I could just open up that pencil diameter sized hole in his stock muffler?
     Thanks again for all the help!

That will work just fine.

[JohnG28]

If he got a DP cover at a dealer and they put it on the warranty would remain intact.

[sharkey]

Here are a couple videos that may help you understand the hop up process.  If you are familiar with cutting squish bands on snowmobile engines you will already understand.  At 6000 ft you will need all the compression that you can get.  .020 is the target tolerance between piston and head, measured at TDC (usually at the edge). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Q6OsmMXEU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyuhi12zlp8

Of further interest is the study of time area.  This concerns how long the ports stay open, how wide they can be made and what shapes make the best power.  Gordon Jennings and Gordon Blair both wrote books on the subject. 

http://www.datafan.com/Horsepower_Blog/gordon-jennings-two-stroke-tuners-handbook/

http://books.sae.org/r-161/

MacDizzy is another reference who uses computer aided design software to find hidden power.  http://www.macdizzy.com/19893hopup.htm

[chainsaw samurai]

  This is great stuff! Thanks everyone. The mandrel set up on the lathe would have been much easier than machining the two plates I used to chuck it up in the Bridgeport table. I am a very novice machinist so everything takes me three times as long as it should. What do you guys think of the aftermarket big bore kits ?
are they any good? from what I have found there is china, taiwan and Italy. I don't make a living with this saw so longevity is not as important to me as it is to the real sawyers. I always got the old 390 for a backup.
                                      Thanks again for all the help.

[Komatsu_Mech1]

So I just got done reading through this thread, and I got to say there is a lot of good stuff in here. I also am not a full time tree cutter but a gear head with a 460. I have been trying to figure out just how to build it up. From the looking around I have done I believe a 54mm top end kit from baileys would work as a bigger bore kit, (correct me if I am wrong???) and with some work and the right fuel and exhaust work it could pretty cool. As you said Chainsaw Samurai there is always the 390 to fall back on.

I look forward to learning more!

[chainsaw samurai]

The 460 is kinda like the Chevelle of the chainsaws. Light for its size, tons of factory power and lots of room for modification. I am thinking of a 54mm bb kit too. After reading the links in Sharkey's post I am ready to start really playing. I have the original OEM cylinder (slightly scored)to practice on. Although I might try to find an old used one or two that is truly junk, one of the things I have learned from this thread is that a little scoring does no t always mean you need a new cylinder(wish I knew that before I shelled out the 200bucks). And from some other threads on here, I have learned that the AM is constantly improving their products. I don't use it like a tree service, when I get back from camping or wood cutting I always detail clean my 390, service it and have it all ready for the next time. I will do the same with this 460 and I think the am kit will work out for me and be cost effective. 100 bucks and a few hrs of fun!! If I needed the saw to make a living with I would definitely send it out to one of the guru's for a "woods porting" job on the OEM cylinder. With their knowledge and skill you would have proven OEM reliability and more performance, but that would cost quite a bit more and not be as fun. And fun is what it is all about for me 8)
     

[chainsaw samurai]

Hey Andy, What is the deal with a wide nose(13teeth I think) vs the 11 tooth es bar that I have? Does the wider nose cut Faster? (less of a bend less friction maybe?) We were looking at my buddies old 038super and noticed that the tip on the 28"bar was a little fatter than on Our 25's, then I checked out the 20" bar on my 390 and it has a wider tip too. Just curious why they would make the different sizes.
                                                                            Thanks, Lance

[Andyshine77]

The wide nose is better for plunge cuts and it reduces wear. The smaller nose bar will have less kick back tendency because of the smaller radius. This however reduces plunge cutting efficiency.