First log with Frick 0

[chopperdr47]

  I'm not finished with the mill completely but I couldn't stand it any longer. I have gone through quite an education on circle mills and getting them to cut straight. I used a punk log for testing my adjustments and got a straight and nearly square 4x4. I have saved several logs from the tornado's in 2011 and I had to see what was in 1.



 
I need some "over the bucket" forks for Miss (Whoa) Nelly, but for now all I have is chains. I got this 1972 Ford 4500 Backhoe just for setting up this mill and handling logs and sawdust. I have always used the 2 joystick control backhoe but never a 4 lever. It took some getting used to and slinging the bucket around, thus the name



  .
It sets a little high on this end since its on a slight down slope. I'm building a catwalk and staging beams for the logs next week, but today there was some climbing and reaching.



 
This was the first cut of a willow oak. I milled some smaller pieces from it on a chainsaw mill that came out real nice. There isn't much rotten from being stacked for 2 1/2 years, Just some under the bark.



 
Unfortunately that's all for today. The Minneapolis Moline engine is propane fueled and I don't have a big tank yet. I'm using the one from my grill, and it ran out right after this cut.

[Ron Wenrich]

Nothing better than the first cut on a mill.  But, every time I made a first cut, I usually used a small, softwood type of log.  Things look good. 

[Sawdust Lover]

Get some forks on that bucket and get your decks built and your life will be much easier. Looks good though and welcome to the forum. It will all come in time!

[clww]

NICE!

[bandmiller2]

Good going Chopper,I remember the first cut on my first circular mill after the slab cut I pulled it over and cut a 1/4" slice you could almost see through it. I would make a set of tusks for your bucket, take two pieces of heavy angle iron and bolt them to the side of the bucket,  a couple of good bolts will do it. Taper the ends of the angle iron and make a slight  curved cut behind the point to cradle the log so it won't roll off. I used this system for years until I found a pair of forklift forks and made a headgear for them. Frank C.

[Peter Drouin]

  Nice

[drobertson]

Just do it! and you did,  can't blame you a bit, would have done the same.  work out any bugs and keep on keeping on!    david

[thecfarm]

Now you know it will make lumber.  ;D

[Andy White]

chopperdr47
Outstanding results for that first log! You have the hard part done now. A log deck and forks, and you will be covered up in sawdust. Welcome to the forum, and good luck with your mill 8) 8)    Andy

[Possum Creek]

That looks good. I was just wondering about the propane engine. How does it compare to gas and diesel? I know they run clean but I am curious about the hp and watch out for the sun shine on the blade it will make it do some crazy things.                   PC

[hardtailjohn]

Looks really good!  We used to have a 4500. Awesome little hoe. I loaded a lot of logs with it and dug miles of ditch.

[chopperdr47]

Thanks for all the complements. Tomorrow I should have pictures of that log cut into some nice wood.

That looks good. I was just wondering about the propane engine. How does it compare to gas and diesel? I know they run clean but I am curious about the hp and watch out for the sun shine on the blade it will make it do some crazy things.                   PC

I'm curious as to how efficient the propane will be myself. That was also an adventure getting the M&M to run. The magneto (yes, magneto) had a bad coil and condenser. Not too many people around any more that works on them. Some small planes still have them so I had some basic knowledge. Still, finding parts for it was fun. It runs very nicely under a load. There's no muffler on it right now and when it lights off, it sounds like a big radial engine on an old plane.

[Darrel]

Looks like more fun than a human should be allowed to have!

[chopperdr47]

Looks really good!  We used to have a 4500. Awesome little hoe. I loaded a lot of logs with it and dug miles of ditch.

Miss Nelly (the 4500) is a little slow to get going in the morning, she moans when I try to move her and groans under a load but shes still strong. That could be said about a lot of us. Having a back hoe is like being a car owner then getting your first truck, you wonder how you ever got along with out one. She has definitely earned her keep.

[bandmiller2]

You will find a propane tractor will have torque like a diesel of comparable size, as far as economy I can't help there. If you have natural gas piped to your home I'd run her on that. Frank C.

[Buddyw]

Nice set-up Chopperdr47
I like to see the circle mills going.
I have 2 of those Ford 4500 backhoes, and 1 Ford 535 backhoe.
They were and still are good machines.
I been dealing with them for 40 years.

[dgdrls]

Thanks for all the complements. Tomorrow I should have pictures of that log cut into some nice wood.

That looks good. I was just wondering about the propane engine. How does it compare to gas and diesel? I know they run clean but I am curious about the hp and watch out for the sun shine on the blade it will make it do some crazy things.                   PC

I'm curious as to how efficient the propane will be myself. That was also an adventure getting the M&M to run. The magneto (yes, magneto) had a bad coil and condenser. Not too many people around any more that works on them. Some small planes still have them so I had some basic knowledge. Still, finding parts for it was fun. It runs very nicely under a load. There's no muffler on it right now and when it lights off, it sounds like a big radial engine on an old plane.

http://magneto-repair.com/

Here is your guy, Good friend does antique auto and truck restoration.
Uses him quite a bit,

Great looking Frick,  I really enjoy seeing those big circle mills fixed-up and running,

Best
DGDrls

[NMFP]

I used Kevins service and it worked well.  Price was reasonable considering I could not find many others willing to work on one. 

Depending on the model, he might have some on a shelf he could send you as a core swap.

Great guy and works fast to get you up and running.

[chopperdr47]

Believe it or not, I found a spare mag on Ebay then a guy in Maine that helped me a lot. He sold me the parts and spent some time on the phone with me getting it right. I can't find his info right now but I'll get the receipt and post it later.

DGDrls, I will add Magneto-Repair to my list of assets. I was told the mag was the weak link on this motor, but now that I have a good one installed and a spare in stock, I'll probably never have another problem with it.

[hardtailjohn]

I was told the mag was the weak link on this motor, but now that I have a good one installed and a spare in stock, I'll probably never have another problem with it.

Yep, there's a reason we still use them on aircraft! Simple and dependable.  I know a MM "NUT" in WY if you ever get stuck for parts...he's most likely got them.  Can't wait to see this mill in action!
John

[bandmiller2]

Sometimes you can find a battery distributor that is a direct replacement for the mag. Frank C.

[chopperdr47]

I expected to have some pictures of a nice stack of freshly milled oak by now, but Murphy ('s Law) has been lurking around my scope of woods.

Forks for my loader have just moved to the top of the priority list. I knocked the carriage of the track trying to load it with chains. Getting it back on without any damage took a while.

When I did start cutting, the blade walked some. I thought I had that straightened out but apparently not well enough for a large oak. I'm not confident with my swagging job on the teeth so I went ahead and changed the them to take that variable out of the equation.

Tomorrow's another day

[Ron Wenrich]

There's a way to anchor your carriage to the track at the loading end of the mill.  You need to put a piece of angle iron on your track that sits above the track.  Put another piece of angle on the carriage, so that they interlock when the carriage is back in the loading position.  If you intend to put on a log turner, this will be a must, or you'll have the carriage off the track all the time. 

Anytime I have a saw problem, I change teeth to take saw maintenance out of the equation.  I usually do that after I make sure that my saw guides aren't pushing or pulling the saw. 

[chopperdr47]

A log turner is definitely on the horizon, especially if I'm going to be handling logs like this one with limited help. It was because I couldn't turn the log on the bed by myself that I pushed the carriage off re-loading it. I'm trying to imagine a fixture to hold the carriage for loading but not having a lot of luck right now. I'm sure my "design committee" will get to work on it tonight while I'm trying to sleep.

When I was changing teeth yesterday, It looked like quite a few were off-set to the board side. I would like to put a spider gauge on them to see for sure but Wal-Mart doesn't stock them. I'll try to make one today. It was pretty hard to get a lot of them out also. I cleaned the light rust out of the groove on the shank with a brass brush and PB Blaster, then the blade socket with the PB and a scotch-brite pad. I wiped them down good, oiled them and put them back. They went in easier than they came out but still tight and the alignment looked better (eye balling). I only got half way through before dark got me. The sawdust also looked a little fine to me. I was expecting it to be a little more coarse once I got into solid wood.

[Ron Wenrich]

Not all bits are made the same.  Sometimes I would get a tooth that was cutting heavy, and leaving a gouge mark.  To find the offender, I would put the file across 3 teeth.  If the middle one was too high, the file would rock.  I then would file the offending tooth on that side.  That usually took out the problem.

Sometimes, if the saw wanted to pull, I would simply take one swipe with the file on the offending side to all the teeth.  Often that solved the problem.  You have to do this fairly lightly, because if you take too much off, it will pull in the other direction. 

You aren't having any problems with frozen wood?

[chopperdr47]

We don't get much frozen wood here in Alabama. It was 62 yesterday but a blast of your air frigid is invading us for the next week or more. Highs will be in the 30's and lows in the teens. Not something we are used to.

I got this rest of the teeth changed this morning and I'm going to look at a few other things before I try again. I took some pictures of a typical example that I will post this evening. I'm looking for any advice I can get.

Is there any rule as to the direction the log should be loaded, big end first, little end?

[Ron Wenrich]

There's no set rule for that, that I know of.  I've sawn from both ends.  I generally like to go with the butt end first.  You eliminate some of your travel time getting to where you're cutting wood on a tapered log.  The downside is if the log has been dragged out of the woods, the butt end may be dirty or have stones in them.  Its best to trim those logs before you saw them.  Also a good idea to trim off the flare. 

[chopperdr47]

Wow! What a difference new bits and clean shanks make. The sawdust is as coarse as I was expecting, it's quieter and cutting straight.



 
I sharpened the teeth previously but a lot looked like they were offset to the board side



 
The shanks were pretty hard to get out and this could be part of the reason



 
Cleaned and ready to go back with new bit



 
The first full board



 
I believe I have the lead set about right. The trailing edge occasionally touches the cant lightly on the gig back.
There is a little more space between the guide pins than I think there should be and that may take care of it.

I'll be changing the oil in the engine tomorrow. That will give me the oil and diesel mix for cleaning and lubricating the blade before I cut any more. I need to get the platform built and off-bearing rollers too but its great to know that it'll cut now.

[Ron Wenrich]

Before changing teeth, I spray the saw shanks with Blue Creeper.  I do this when the blade is slowing down close to a stop.  I let it sit over lunch, then change the teeth.  It makes it a lot easier.

Are you hand filing your teeth?  You have to watch that you don't get your bit angle to fat.  Its real easy to do when you hand file.  Same goes for being straight across.  I had a Jockey grinder that I would use once a day, just to keep my hand filing honest.  When I teach a young sawyer, I get them to use a grinder for most of their sawing.  It usually turns out better.  I then let them touch up the saw with a file.  Hand filing is an art you learn, and it takes quite a bit of experience to get good at it. 

The saw guides should be just far enough off to see light by the pins.  I always found I had to put my board side pin about tight against to get the results I wanted. 

The board looks good. 

[chopperdr47]

I used PB Blaster before removing the teeth and it helped some. I'll look for the Blue Creeper since there is another blade that needs the same thing. These blades that had been sitting out in the weather for several years before I rescued them. This one is 50" with 46 "3" style shanks. Nearly every one of them are 9 gauge 3rd oversize. When I was ordering more bits and a couple more shanks, Terry at B.H. Payne told me that was very unusual. These things were a bear to get out. The neglect was a factor I'm sure, but even cleaned and oiled they were still hard to get back in as well. On most of them, I had to use a dead blow to get them to seat properly, not a preferred method I know but I couldn't man 'em in. I got a 2nd oversize from Payne just for grins, It was pretty tight as well. Could someone have put oversized shanks in to intentionally mess with the tension or should they be gorilla tight?   

I hand filed the original teeth trying to keep close the original angles as I could. I'm no stranger to a file and machine work but far from a master. I was the closest thing to a machinist that we had in the last Chinook unit I was in. I made most of our special tools and "locally manufactured" parts. With that said, we never had the use for sharp sawmill teeth.

I could see that the original bits were rounded on the cant side. I was able to swag (swedge?) the corner back some but not enough. There was a considerable difference on the  smaller, softer test log but a full cut on the larger solid oak started to drift out. While I was changing them, I compared the old to the new and could see that I had not gotten a good corner on all of them. The new teeth cost less than $1.50 each with shipping. The piece of mind you get from replacing verses swagging (swedgeing?) seems to be worth the cost to me.

I am going to replace the red oak guide pins with some dogwood or hornbeam (ironwood). Now that the blade is tracking so much better, I'm thinking that will hold up better.

I'm getting a lot of great info here, keep it coming, I need all I can get.

[Ron Wenrich]

I put some oversized shanks in that were too tight.  The saw never ran quite right, and some of the shanks broke.  I've had some shanks that have been real loose, and never lost teeth.  If you change shanks, you need to get the saw hammered.  It changes the tension in the saw.  And, you shouldn't swap shanks in the sockets.  I have put used ones in when I lose a shank.  You'll do that sometimes when you hit metal.

The problem I have had with hand filing is that the tooth has a tendency to get fat.  I always have to start filing at the gullet and work my way out, or the tooth angle gets too fat. 

I've seen it written out as swage.  Everyone pronounces it as swedge.  Blue Creeper is sold by Logrite.  They're a sponsor here on the forum.  From what I've been told is that its a moly lube.  I also used it to lube the slides on the dogs.  Its non greasy, and won't stain lumber. 

[PC-Urban-Sawyer]

Blue Creeper is available from http://www.bluecreeper.com/ which is owned and operated by our friends at Logrite!

It is great stuff.

Herb

[chopperdr47]

Thanks for the link. I'll be ordering some soon.

I have another blade that's 48" and I believe it has 48 B or F double circle shanks with standall bits. I don't believe there will be an issue here with frozen logs so I've been told that the standalls are not necessary. They are in the same condition as the first blade so I'm going to change them later. The only markings I can make out on the shank say "1/32 LARGE". How do you tell the difference between a B and an F and what is it that I have on this other blade?

[Ron Wenrich]

There should be a letter on the shank, unless they're worn off.  The B pattern gullet is larger than the F pattern gullet.  A B pattern saw will also have less teeth in the saw than the F pattern.  A 48" B pattern saw would have 42 teeth, and the F pattern would have 46 teeth.  I never used Standall bits.  In our area, we run winter shanks and summer bits all year long. 

I don't know if you've seen this booklet.  Its an older one made by the Forest Service.  A lot of pertinent information in there. 
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf

[chopperdr47]

Awright... more great info and a good pub. I have 46 teeth on a 48" blase so that is going to be the F style.

I read a few other parts of that publication and got more good info on V belts and power transmission. The belt configuration I have will support about 100 hp. Thats a little more than half of my rated power available. I don't want to overtax my engine but there is a Corley edger waiting in the wings for its big brother to get up and running. That will be another thread in hopefully the not to distant future.

Incase there are any other novices reading this, I found another good page on Peterson's website. I was trying to find out how to tell what gauge saw plate I have when I ran across this http://petersonsawmills.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/press_articles_general33.pdf. A good remedial course on the blade, bits, shanks, terminology etc.

[SPD748]

Hey John,

A couple of things I picked up along the way...

Blue Creeper is a very good friend to have available. I have that stuff sitting all over the place in the small 'needle' applicator bottles. I hand file with a Dexter file guide. Believe me, it makes filing so much easier and more accurate. Use a sharp file and avoid the temptation to 'saw' on the bits. Always always always sharpen before the saw 'needs' it. I learned this principle from the master toolmaker who carried me through my apprenticeship.

-lee

[ddcuning]

Great article on blades thanks for sharing.

Dave C