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440d winch

Started by SquareG, January 14, 2014, 10:18:48 PM

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SquareG

Once in a while, it rips the brake springs to peices and bends the eye bolt when I go to winch in.  50$ a pop and a couple days down.  I'm new to logging and don't have a manual.  Doesn't appear to have anything wrong with it.  How could a fool tear it up?  Thanks, Shannon

BargeMonkey

 You have the adjustment way out for "band release". Your going to need to make custom wrenches. Ive got a winch manual but it would take me a few days to find. Pm me if you need it,

KyLogger

X 2 on the custom wrenches. Mine has a 3305 winch and my dozer has got a 3325 on it. I do have the manual on the 3325 it if you need anything specific, I can dig it up.

Tom
I only work old iron because I secretly have a love affair with my service truck!

BargeMonkey

 Ive thought a few times about fitting a deere 4000 winch into a 440 just to get away from that winch. Dont bother buying an "aftermarket" band, and be very careful if you send it out to be rebuilt. Deere took mine up, and let the fresh graduate rebuild it. The shafts have to be slid in with the winch hanging on its side, to avoid wiping the seals out. They brought it down, put it on and it puked right away. Deere paid for the complete rebuild, both times.

SquareG

I have been adjusting the eye bolt till brake doesn't slip when it's engaged and under reasonable load.  Hydraulic is slow to release, and engage, when oil is cold.  Haven't adjusted the valve.  Faint rattle noise in clutch appears irrelevant.  May be a trace of oil on clutch(barely, not even sure if there is any).  I'm baffled, once it pulls on those springs, the brake should be self released b4 springs are damaged.  Brake is binding, or grabbing the clutch.  Brake appears like new.

BargeMonkey

Wait.. wait..hold on..   all your adjustment is between those 2 nuts which adjusts the throw when you go from "neutral" to brake off. In the manual is 2 sets of measurements, and you will need the custom wrenches and a ruler to set the brake tension. My winch 1 year after being rebuild has a slight clunk when cold. Youve got the "brake off" setting way out, thats why you keep breaking springs. Also, there are 2 plastic rings in that cylinder which can go bad and wreak havoc on tension, seen it on a 440C winch. Ask "kentucky logger" to send you the specs before you get into serious repairs. You should never see oil on the dry side, and if that fitting is leaking replace it, or you will doing a band. I check my winch every 90 days, and clean clutch plates and springs every year.

SquareG

I'll take your advice and contact KL for manual and adjust by the book this time.  However, it's not possible brake disengaging cylinder is damaging springs.  They're stretched out way farther than that after damage.  Only nut I've adjusted is on eye bolt between springs against cylinder, and lock nut for it.  Skidder is new to me, with new brake recently installed by seller.  I'm beginning to think dud aftermarket brake as you suggested earlier.

BargeMonkey

Its one of those things you cant diagnose without being there. Ive spent many frustrated hours  adjusting the winch, changing band and clutches, been into it a few times. Aftermarket bands are junk from what ive seen. Had 3x and never had good luck. Yeah theres an open and closed measure, start with that.

Offthebeatenpath

I've been having the same issues as Shannon, breaking springs on my 440D winch.  I'm realizing that my thick skull won't be able to figure it out without a manual.  I'm ready to buy a repair tech manual, but I've seen a few different ones on ebay.  I've got a few questions (please excuse my naiveté, I'm new to this machine, and relatively new to skidders in general):

There is a 1437 and a 1274 manual, and they appear to be pretty similar.  Does anyone know the difference?
Does the repair tech manual cover the winch?
What is the winch model number for a 1985 440D?

Thanks!
Jed
1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

beenthere

Jed
Have you been on the jdparts.com site and looked at the breakdown of all of your parts, as well as the place to order your tech manual ? 
It is free registration, and will give you the part no. changes that might have happened by serial numbers.

May also help you with the tech manuals different numbers.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offthebeatenpath

Thanks Been There,

Yeah, I got the operator and parts manuals from JDparts.com, but they don't seem to have the tech repair manual for the 440D.
1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

SquareG

I've adjusted they springs so they barely hold, replaced all seals so there is absolutely no film of oil on brake, taken right side cover off and tightened bearings, updated nut that fits in brake cylinder, release cable tension b4 engaging clutch, but what I feel most likely fixed the problem is that I torched the 1/8" strap off the brake, the one closest the the eye bolt, and bent the brake out a little so eye bolt is not jammed into brake.  Seems to me first round of brake was getting wedged into second round when clutch was engaged.  Can't rule out decreased tension, though.  Service manager where you buy parts should photocopy pertinant info if you want to do it by the book.

thenorthman

Uh there shouldn't be any extra bits to get lodged in there... not to be an ass but you sure you got it put back together right? or the right parts to put in?  From the looks of mine there's not a whole lot of room for error in there.
well that didn't work

Offthebeatenpath

OK, I've been fiddling around with my 440D winch all afternoon and can't seem to get the freespool adjustment right.  Bought a tech repair book, made custom wrenches.  Spring adjustments are right on for holding and winching in, but in freespool, the springs are opening way too far.  I can't loosen the "special nut" any farther, as the book says to do or it will spin off the end of the eyebolt.

The winch seems to work fine now, but this is how its been before and the springs go to hell after a few days.  Anybody know what I'm doing wrong?
1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

SquareG

loosening special nut would open springs farther in freespool, seems you said opposite.  If you don't have two small nuts besides the special nut, you might upgrade the special nut, and add the extra small one.  Service manager said 4 11/16 measure, but didn't say what to measure, if you don't mind? with your tech manual and all....I'm still just "guessing".

huntdibbs

I have a 440c not sure about the difference I have the special nut set to a spot to hold the brake and two small nuts to adjust for free spool. I get pretty frustrated with it the it comes together and works good. [KNOCK ON WOOD]
MF1540 4x4 massey ferguson tractor, JD440C skidder, Case650H W/allied wc3 winch

Offthebeatenpath

After loosening the special nut as per the direction of the manual, and not really liking how it acted, I then tightened it as far as it could go (as you mentioned Shannon), then loosened the nuts on either side of the anchor to get the 4 11/16" distance.  The problem still remains that when I put the winch in freespool, the special nut is pushed almost all the way out of the brake piston housing.  If I'm reading the manual correctly, it says that the release stroke should push the springs between 5/16" and 6/16" farther open than when the brake is engaged.  I'm getting about an inch, which is why the special nut is almost coming out of the brake piston housing every time.  I think eventually, it will pop out again and bust the springs. 

I'm wondering if the problem lies somewhere else, like the plastic rings inside the cylinder as Barge Monkey mentioned.  I should probably take the brake piston housing apart and check it out.

Shannon- the 4 11/16" distance is the measurement of the springs between the bottom edge of the anchor pin (that holds the springs from on the top side) to the bottom edge of the spring anchor (that holds the springs on the bottom and is held in place with the two nuts).
1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

SquareG

Allright, thanks. bottom of anchor to bottom or anchor.  It sounds to me like your  special nut has jumped out of the hole in the piston.  Maybe you'd better check the free length 4.9".  They might be damaged.  I had the piston out, replaced the seal in cylinder, didn't see any plastic in there and jdpc doesn't show anything but oring seal.  I'm pretty sure piston is supposed to come all the way out, to snap ring.  FWIW my special is barely hanging on end of eye bolt, and small is right up against it, and working good a few days.  Thanks for the info, will be interesting to see if I've not ended up close to the book.  I would set 4 11/16 first with small nuts, then set special nut for freespool, realizing that is opposite huntdibbs.

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