LT70 Mizer or 36HT25 Harvester

[ppeterson]

I am looking at setting up a permanent sawing operation cutting hardwood full time. I thought I had my mind made up to get an LT70 with the 62hp Turbo Cat diesel, if I can afford it. Liked all the features it has to offer.

But, the other night I contacted a sawyer in central Wisconsin and spent an hour on the phone with him. He told me the 367HT25 with a 42hp diesel is a far superior machine.

I don't want to start a war here, but I need input, as I am again confused.  :-/

Thanks,
ppeterson

[Bibbyman]

Welcome to the FF pp.  

There are a couple of LT70 guys on the forum here that's had some experiance with them  - maybe not with the 62 CAT.  I don't know if we've got a TH guy with that model mill or not.

I've only seen the LT70 w/62 CAT in demo and it was awesome.   It was pullin' a 1.5 wide.55 thick blade.  The walnut logs they were sawing didn't even cause a change of sound in the engine like I come to expect when a engine is under load.


Wood-Mizer LT70 at open house in Mt. Vernon, MO. spring 2004 - This walnut log was a little dry and had a forked top.

You may have to look them both over and "kick the tires".  Please report back what you find out.

[ToddC]

I have a 36HT25 and I like it. Its my first mill after a few days I got used to it.

[Percy]

Heya ppeterson.
I own an LT70 with the 42 hp Kubota. Ive never seen a Timberharvester mill so I cant comment on whether it is a "far superior" mill or not. If it truly is, it must be a pretty fantastic mill cause the 70 is pretty quick at getting it done, is tuff as nails and gives me very little grief. I have support gear(Bobcat,edger, etc) to help me so your production may vary. I work alone mostly these days and can cut 2000 bdft of WRC a day(8-9 hours) fairly easily. This includes bucking and cleanup and bladechanges and all the stuff that goes along with milling. Cutting hardwood, production usually rises.

I noticed one year, a Timber harvester won the shootout so they must be good mills.
Good luck on whatever you decide.
Later
Percy

[Jeff]

Welcome ppeterson.

We are not in to slamming one anothers mills on this forum so dont worry, no war will be started. I dont, wont and will not allow it. You wont see our members claiming that one mill is far superior to another unless they happen to own both. Mostly someone that claims that is into the "ford versus chevy" type rants or has a beef with a manufacture and neither of those attitudes fly here. That kind of information is worthless to someone like yourself thats looking for a machine to serve a certain purpose. Our members will tell you whats what on machines they have first hand knowledge of because they work with them daily, not because they dont happen to like the way a certain color looks from down the road.

You will get great information here from our members.

[ppeterson]

Thanks Jeff B,

I feel better that everyone on the forum conducts themselves in a professional manner, as I thought they would.

All I am looking for are specific traits that each machine has to offer so I know what to be aware of as I explore them. I have seen an LT70 run, and this weekend I will spend 7 hours on the road to visit an owner and watch a 36HT25 run.
Any specific guidance before Friday night would be appreciated.

I have gotten some good input already, some of it by instant message. Thanks to everyone.

WOW! My second post already on the forum. How long before I catch up to Bibby?

Regards,
ppeterson

[ronwood]

ppeterson,

Welcome to the forum. I spoke with a number of the individuals at Timberharvester and they were quite helpful.  Mill will only cut has good as the sawyer takes care of the mill and keeps sharp blades on the mill.  Each mill has its good points.I choose Woodmizer because I felt it would have a better resale value, customer support is very good, and their factory is not that far from St. Louis.  I sure you would be happy with either one.

[D._Frederick]

pp-,

I am curious to what criteria you used to pick-out  the two mills you are interested in? The WM is a cantilevers  design and the other is a four post style, so the choice is clear on your pick of styles . There are 2 to or 3 other four post designs that are as good as or better than the mill you are looking at. What features do you think made the TK mill stand out?

[Norwiscutter]

Welcome to the forum ppeterson, it is nice to have another local guy onboard 8).  These guys round here won't steer ya wrong, unless of course you you start talking about food... like the homemade bread, ice tea, cookies, tuna sandwhiches, egg salad sandwiches, chips, fresh fruit, and veggys from the garden that got sprung on me yesterday while on a job. Not to mention a couple of cold ones at the end of the day... Told them I would cut for them any time they needed. Also don't trust the ones that would take gritts over pancakes, there just is something not right with those folks.

I really think that when planning a permanant operation, the type of mill you go with is the least of your concerns.  Most of the high end mills will be sumwhat comparable in accomplishing the task.  I would really take the extra time to make sure that your whole support operation is up to the task first IE Log supply, log storage, board storage, and marketing and most importantly, good flow of the product through the production process.  Not saying that you don't have this all pretty much figured out, but it always pays to go over this type of stuff with the people around here because there are a lot of people here that run similar opperations to what you are thinking.  Definatly pick there brains. When I was looking at mills I at first wanted to get a lt40 super and was dead set on it.  But once I started to take a hard look at what I wanted to do, the time that I would gain by going with a high end mill was greatly offset by my lack of support structure.  Once I cut the wood, how was I gonna move it, dry it, machine it, and store it?  I chose instead to buy a manual mill and a 35 horse tractor with bucket and pallet forks.  I also in the process of choosing a planner and shaper  to complete my shop requirements.  In my situation, the actual cutting of the wood only turned out to be about 10% of what I needed done. Now I am not in business as a full time permanant opperation... I do mostly my own stuff, as well as a few side jobs for the people who make me good food ;), but I do think that the most important part of your business will be all the other stuff aside from the sawing.  
That being said, if ya got everything pretty much much figured out, I like the LT70, but don't think that the 62 horse is really necessary.  If you are going to set up permanant, why not go with the electric motor? Would probably save your money, your hearing, and your lungs from those diesel fumes.  What ever you choose, I would definatly like to see you run it some time.

[FeltzE]

PPete'

Check out select sawmill they have a band rig that will cut in both directions, the video is free and you can find them on the internet via their website.  They run a 4inch double direction blade, The 2 advantages I could see on their machine are.
1) If cutting in both directions (plane sawn) make your cant then you can cut drop cut drop till done leaving a stack of lumber on the mill to pull off at completion of the cant.

2) bigger blades allow for more hp applied to the cut enabling faster cutting rates.

Disadvantage

1) Higher cost of blades and blade maintenance vs 1/5 inch blades.

2) slightly higher initial investment.

I've got a 35 hp Woodmizer which will push a sharp blade 1.5" band very well through "sawgrade" timber, producing over 2000 ft per 8 hr shift edged, with an edger you can add another 1000 easily.

Keep in mind a couple of issues which I hope others will chime in ... for or against and why.

The sawmill is a support unit for the saw blade.

The 1.5inch bands are inexpensive in comparison to virtually all other bands and circle blades. This is important if you are going to be cutting logs not debarked or residential sourced timber (which has a high iron content"

Options are important as to how you are going to work.

debarkers increase blade cutting life

coffee mugs must have covers keep dust out

the blade effectively limits the amount of hp you can apply to the cut. A specific blade and sharpness will equate to the maximum hp befor deflection. I've seen 300 hp on 6" head rigs and then down to the max I've seen applied to the 1.5 inch blades is 65 hp (overkill in my opinion) about 40 or so is probably a good swag. (wrestling match to follow on that one
  8)  .

Board drag backs and stationary operator stations can make  for improved effeciency which is important if you are going to saw for a living every step reduced is an improvement.

Cantilever vs 4 post , user choice both good designs.

Computer setworks, has advantages, if you actually use the options they can improve your thru-put especially if you are using remote operators stations.

Simply being mobile can effectively allow you to diversify

Used circle mills are very available if you are going to set up stationary and they are very reasonably priced. (I have one cheap for ya...  )

Keep in mind there are a lot of other things to be considered, material handling, sawdust, slab, chippers for the waste stream, bucket loader to handle bulk, overhead storage for airdrying, kiln for KD, planer shop? blower for that too?

It's certinally good to get around to other sawyers and say hi .. and how do you do business... I recently stopped by an old moffit mill still in use regularly with one man (75 yr old) making money sawing and selling! A nice small operation with the head rig, power turner, manual setworks, frick edger, and a JD 60 hp 2WD tractor to handle logs and lumber.

BEST of luck to ya, And feel Free to Stop by and Say Hi, everyone here is great, and some are some real sleepers capable of engineering,  :Pdrawing, :P and building wooden spaceships!

Eric

Not Kidding!

[MrMoo]

PPeterson,
Welcome to the forum. You'll like it here.

I thought I'd make your decision more difficult  . Perhaps you should consider a LogMaster. I have one and think it is a great machine and the folks at LM are great to deal with. They offer machines in the class of the LT70 or 36HT25.

The points made by Ronwood are correct mill maintenance & a sharp blade are important to get what you want out of your machine.

I'm sure you'll be happy with whatever machine you get.

Mike

[ppeterson]

To all who responded,

All good points so far. Got more response than I expected.

ronwood: I have been sawmilling in the commercial end for 32 years. I understand the importance of good saws and upkeep. I too, conclude these are some of the most important issues. It is another whole topic to be dealt with. I have heard lots of comments about a lot of different brands and styles of bandsaws. I do not have a good grasp on them yet as these smaller saws are new to me. Sometimes we see opposing comments about the same saw. If one person says a particular saw runs well time and time again and the next person says that same saw is trouble, is it really the saw?  :P
I believe I have to first decide on a mill and then find the saw that matches the mill and the wood being cut.
I might be wrong.

D._Federick: You asked my criteria? I want the best saw I can get to start with. I know whatever I choose will be too much saw to start with, because I will be set up very small. I will have a supporting edger, forklift and 1 helper. The thing I am afraid of, is buying a saw that I will feel is inadequate, production wise, in 1 year. I will be running the saw and feel I will get the hang of it fairly quickly. I have experienced running a double cut bandmill at the pace of 1,000+ 8' logs in an 9 hour shift. Average diameter of 15" down to 6" & 8" cants. Only cutting two sides and sending cant downstream to a Ukiah gang edger. It is an unbelievable pace. A good rythm is essential. At the end of the day, it is hard to get out of the booth because your so zoned out.

I have an expansion plan to add decks and conveyors as money permits. I have pre-marketed my production so that is not an issue. Aquiring logs will be the challenge. There is a lot of competition here for grade sawlogs.
My criteria is as follows: yield, quality, machine reliability, headrig production and the supporting equipment will follow.
I have literature on TH, TK, WM. Have talked to reps. Talked to people. Finding more good info. on WM than any other brand from people like you. Still open on what to choose.
Cantilever or H style? 62 hp or 40 hp? I don't know! That's why I'm here. If I knew it all, why would I need 50 consultants like yourselves. ;)

NORWISCUTTER: All of your points are taken into consideration. I would like to talk with you on the phone seeing you are in my neighborhood. Call me. I sent you my phone number.

FeltzE: I have been to the Select Sawmill website and I agree it looks awesum. More than I want to start with, but who knows for the future. Definately an advantage cutting both directions. Also more stability in the saw. But, you better know what you are doing when filing such a critter.

I only drink coffee on the way to work. Not at work.

Custom sawing will be explored, but only on site. Moderate volume would be a requirement.

To all:
Thanks
ppeterson

[ppeterson]

MrMoo,
Log Master is not known to me. I will explore this machine.
ppeterson

[Oregon_Sawyer]

Hello:  I am the other member with a LT 70.  I am a part-timer.  This is my second WM.  I upgraded because I wanted all the bells and whistles.  I stayed with a WM because of the fantastic support i got with my first one.  I don't consider my self a mechanic and felt i needed local support if I was in a pinch.

My LT 70 has the 42hp diesel and is a walk behind mill not a stationary operater station.  My son or I cut alone most of the time.  On a recent production job I kept three other people busy, off bearing, moving logs and stacking lumber. (Six hours a day is all they were up for ;D)

The Cat engine was not available when I bought mine.  I don't need more power than what I have but-- I drive 2200 miles a week in Cat powered trucks and I really like Cat engines.

If you are not going to be moving I would go electric and I would seriously consider the LT300.  (Just what you wanted to hear about another model)

Someday If I ever get up to a full time operation I would like a LT300.

If you would like to talk to me send me a Email and I will send you my Phone number. Percy has more time on his mill than I do.  We cut simlar products.

Loren

[EZ]

With the quick return on the LT70 and most of the high production mills now adays. I think a double cut mill would be a waste of money.
EZ

[BBTom]

Let me start off by saying that I am a very satisfied WM owner, BUT if I was going to set up to operate stationary I would have a vertical band.  For about the same money as a Good Portable,  a person can have a Great Vertical.  With the large bandwheels and long bands, there is no worry about the size of logs and the bands last much longer.  I have seen one that  uses the 1.5" bands and it looks like a great small sawmill to me.   Just had to put in my $0.02 worth.

Tom

[Neil_B]

Here is another that may interest you.
http://www.serra.de/eng/html/sitemap.php

Sorry to add another to the list  :

[Swede]

"1,000+ 8' logs in an 9 hour shift"

For me it´s another world than my manual (soon hydraulic) band sawmill.

Most people here have not seen a band sawmill, just these fast, sawdust- and fire-wood producing circular sawmills. I always get the qestion about how many logs I consume per  hour or day. A few ask about quality and production. So I have to explane that  most conditions and objective is far away different from what they are used to. Some people understand, some even appreciate it, some don´t understand at all.
Some people save the best logs for me to saw and for themselves to use. If they get a good product they don´t worry about the time. These people get happy and then I´m happy too.
Others wants me to saw the logs they can´t sell to a big sawmill, half rotten, crooked.............. They wants me to do it as fast as a 150 HP cirkular sawmill where they have to leave and fetch it. These people do not get happy with me and I don´t want their logs on my "Amerika-Sågen".

The man who owned my sawmill before had two cirkular sawmills and was used to them. He had "Amerika-Sågen" for nine years but never learned how to deal with it. I went out to my first customer and sawed my first logs in my life there without any problems.
For me it seems that cirkular (and perhaps other high producing sawmill) give you an occupational  disease so you can´t learn how to use a band sawmill?  : Right or wrong?

ppeterson; (swedish name?)  I prefer a sipmple designed 4-poster where I can make all spare parts and rebuildings in my workshop.
Most sawmills works and You have got a bunch of good advices here. Good luck!.

Swede.

[ppeterson]

Swede: Nice to meet you but you need to learn how to speak Norwegian. Mabey that will help you with your english. ;)
When asked if I am Swedish, I say yes. When asked when I am Norwegian, I say yes. Is ther a difference? :-/
25% + 25% = 50 % Swedenorwegian.
Other half German.
I am married to an Italian / Croatian girl. We had to adopt our son because we were afraid of what might have come out of conceiving a child. ???

There is truth to the circle saw or double cut bandmill high production fever or disease. But, after 30 years of high paced sawmilling with my uncle producing up to 42,000,000 BF annually, I'm tired. I look forward to being able to work on my own and meet my personal goals. Not that it would be any less work.

As Steve Smith is quoted by Wood-Mizer: "Purchasing the mill was the beginning of a way to create not only an income, but a flexible lifestyle that I love."

As far as the poorer logs your customers want to cut, tell them to get a wood stove. Your time is more valuable than that.

Niel_B: I will check it out. Thanks.

BBTom: What is the make of the vertical band?

EZ: Double cut has it place, but you better be set up to handle the production of a double cut. Ours cut up to 35,000 BF per day in 8' Eastern White Pine logs. Headsaw compiled with a gang edger, lumber flower onto green chain like water. Up to seven people just piling lumber, applying stickers every layer.
1 Forklift running steady. Clam putting logs on deck. 16 people just to run the mill, counting lifts and greenchain. Then there were filers, maintenance, night maintenance, office staff, sales.
Then in the building right next to it, there was a small log mill that cut 120,000 BF per day. Whole 'nother issue. Won't go there.

Oregon_Sawyer: I hope to grow into an LT300 sending cants to a grade re-saw system down stream. Right now it is not an option. Too much money to set up properly to handle the production. Has to come gradually.
I also do not have 3 phase power available and it is really expensive to run it any distance. I looked at a lot with no power and it was going to cost approx. $30,000 to get 3 phase power to it. Distance was less than 1 mile.

SWEDE: I hope I didn't insult you. I was only kidding. I read your posts often throughout the forum and enjoy listening to you.

That goes for all of you.

Regards,
ppeterson

[Jeff]

If I was setting up a stationary mill I would set up a cricle mill. Why?

Cause thats all I know. :D

[Swede]

ppeterson; Neste gang di er denne sie må di ta en tur herom. Jej kan fortelle en historie di nesten ikke kan tro pa!  :D :D :D
Why all this talking about my broblem with the language? I have NO problems, do you? OK, the measures makes my calulator burning and I don´t talk Norwegian perfect. Sorry ! ;D ;) ;D  
And only people asking me for sawing knotty and rotten  logs can insoult me.

Jeff;  No one need to be blamed for the circle mill  disease or any disease associated with saw dust, so far they are open minded to realize the difference.  ;)  :D

Swede.

[dewwood]

Some very good comments here.  My two cents worth would be to go electric with a phase converter whatever mill you decide to go with as long as you plan to remain stationary.  I have a 42 hp Kubota diesel and am well pleased with it, runs about all day on five gallons of fuel.  However if I ever trade I will go electric and not do any mobile milling.  The cost difference between an electric and a diesel will pay for the phase converter. If you shop around you can sometimes find a used one worth the money.  I bought a 15 hp converter a few years ago for $650 and am looking at a 60 hp one now for $900.  You still need a starter and additional wiring but I would certainly look at electric for a stationary operation.  Also my electricity rate is on a progressive rate, the more I use the less it costs and it is much less than I could operate all of the equipment on gas or diesel.

[ppeterson]

JeffB,

Lot of good things to say about a circle sawmill. As a boy and into early manhood, my grandfather had a circle mill cutting hard maple in the UP of Michigan. It burned in 1976.
I remember filing those 60"+ saws with the hand pulled grinder and the manual tooth swedger. Hammering was an art but not completed to the perfection of bandsaws.

When the sawyer dogged the log, it seemed like the carriage left the tract. When the saw hit the log, it sounded like somebody picked the cat up by the tail.

I never had the opportunity to see a steam mill operate but I heard they were more powerful than the electric motor driven mills.

We should all feel lucky to be in the business that has so much history to tell about. Where I live, at the turn of the century, this land was barren because of the great sawmillimg tycoons. It was said you could see the next town 8 miles away from the right hill. I know that is what it is like where some of you live, but here, right now, our forests are thick. There are no fields close by.

If you really think about it, history is beeing set right now. I believe WM, TH, TK, and all the other narrow thin kerf bandmills are going to make great leaps in the sawmill industry. It is a must as fiber becomes more costly and harder to get.

The LT300 is a good example, as well as the Super Harvestor and the Brewco B-1600, to name a few. Sounds like there will be an orange one coming out soon.

Wow, I started with circle saws!! Sorry guys, I will go now.

Tomorrow I go to see a 36HT25 run, cutting small logs. I am kinda excited about that.

Hey SWEDE, like your Norwegian talk.

See ya,
ppeterson

[ARKANSAWYER]

   I am the son, grandson, great grandson and father of carpenters.  But I am the black sheep of the family and became a Sawyer.  Learned on a circle mill and in just 3 days had the production rates of the man before me who was there 20 years.  I know a good board when I see one and have nailed a many of them down.  It did not take me long to learn where good boards came from in a log and a good log from a bad one.  It has taken me 3 years to saw with a band mill what I used to saw in 3 months on the circle mill.  I can turn wrenches with the best of them and studied engineering in college.
  So knowing this I would like to offer a bit of info that may help you.  You wish to saw hardwoods and the grade determins the value and worth of the lumber and how fast you can get rid of it.  A band mill taking out 1/8 th of an inch will save you a board or more on every log over 14 inches but the board will always come in the lower grade section of the log.  In most of the logs I have skinned the middle 6x6 section has been of low grade and easier to sell as a tie or pallet cant.  Since you have been at the mill you know this to be true.  So why would you want a band over a circle mill that can skin twice the wood in a day?  There is a point in which you could loose a board every log and shuck 20 more logs a day and make more money and not have all them extra low grade boards to worry about.  Jeff and Ron both can attest to these facts.
  Now here is the kicker.  I can with my band mill take a few extra seconds and read a log and trun it a bit and produce better boards from a lower grade log. (that is money made)  It is easier to saw level with the bark and take the taper out in the cant thus making better boards. (that is money made)  Because I am sawing slower I have more time to read the grain and turn the log and make a wider board from another face of better grade. (that is money made)  I can run the risk of hitting metal from urban timber becuase my blade cost and down time is less and make boards from re-jected logs. (if not to many blades that is money made)  I make less waste since I make smaller cuts and that extra lowgrade board I made I can sell instead of the sawdust I must despose of. (that is money made and time saved)  But you were already sold on band mill.  Both the TH and WM are good mills and I would and will choose the WM LT70 since my experiance has been great with them.  The money saved getting electric over diesel would pay for the phase converter plus you can add a dust blower which you will need and other stuff.  Fuel, oil and maintance is a consideration as well as noise and fumes.  I hear it gets cold up North and you may want to saw in the winter and with electric you can close the doors and live.  GET A DE-BARKER no matter which mill you choose and use re-sharp as it will make your life easier and give you a good product.
  If any one tries to tell you that grits ar'nt groceries, they aint been out much.
ARKANSAWYER

[Swede]

Thank You ARKY! Your words sounds like music in my Swedish ears.
That´s  what I try to tell people around here. Some listen, some understands. Some just look at me thinking I´m the idiot this week.

A few people think I´m telling the truth and save all logs more than 12" in small end, cut them 13-19'.
Sometimes I sell some of the extra boards I get out of the logs and put the money in their pocket, just to show them how to get the "slow" sawing payed.

Swede.

[shopteacher]

Hi and welcome. I just returned from Richmond and although I own and operate a Woodmizer I would suggest you take a look at the Baker Blue Streak. Watched it operate at the Expo and was very, very impressed.  It has a 60 something ( they didn't have literature on it yet) John Deere diesel and  uses a 2" band.  If I was buying a mill of that caliper I would really, really have a hard time choosing between the LT 70 and this new Baker.  The one at the show was built and brought to the show for a customer and sold for around 39,000.

[ppeterson]

ARKANSAWYER,

Why a band over a circle? I ask that as well. I keep coming back to the gain in yield and the simplicity of setting up a starter mill as portables offer.
Who knows what the next saw will be. Like the LT300 but the Select Saw looks intriguing. Definately know that whatever it is, it will be sending cants to a grade re-saw system. Then the circle would make sense, as well.

I understand all of the points you made and realize the benifits. Thanks for the input.

I went and watched a 36HT25 TH run for 4 hours the other day and liked some of the features.

One of the biggest advantages I saw was the TH cuts into the face that has already been opened after the first rotation of the log. Therefore, the saws should cut longer.

Another advantage, the TH has 3 dogs. Should be better on a crooked log.

I also liked the fact that there was a large dial indicator for live sawing.
Does WM have anything at all? I never thought to look and the brochures don't show anything.

This particular saw had a 40 something Deutch engine. Ran quiet but I noticed it bogged in larger hardwoods. Especially in the Ash.
The sawyer like the motor.

I like grits, even though I was raised on pasties.

shopteacher:
I was visiting the Baker website last night and I agree it is another saw worth looking at.
Thanks.

ppeterson

[Rod]

The sawmills the cut the most lumber in a year are band mills around here


http://www.wvforestry.com/Green%20Lumber.DIR.pdf

[Bibbyman]

Wood-Mizer has a "yard stick" scale that runs vertical on the mast right in front of the control box on the walk-along and ride-along mills.  It's about arm distance away when adjustments are made so it can be read quite well by the operator.  

The Wood-Mizers with Command Control,  this scale is only readable from the control box when the sawhead is within say 5' of the hitch end where the Command Control is located – at least with my eyesight.  But that's not a problem if you're running Accuset because all you need to know is displayed there on the console -  the height above deck and set numbers being about ½ high letters.   When sawing with the Accuset and Command Control,  the manual scale is of little use.

With the Wood-Mizer LT70 with Command Control,  the control stand can be moved anywhere around the mill.  Many find sawing from the back end having an advantage.  In this case,  the manual scale would not be visible from the operator's view point – nor is it really needed.

Cutting through the "clean side" probably has some advantage.  But you're going to cut through the bark on the first face anyway.  And unless you cut a substantial number of flinches off'n the first face,  you'll be cutting through some bark on the other faces as well. Of course,  once the cant is squared down,  both designs are sawing through a clean face.

The Wood-Mizer dual-plane clamp system is a major improvement over their old flap style clamp.  It's got enough power to clamp a cant so the cant won't bow as the stress changes.  It can even pull some stress bow out of a cant.

Link to the Knowledge Base for an article on using the Wood-Mizer Accuset.

[ppeterson]

Hello again Bibby,

Thanks for the info. on the yard stick. I knew there had to be something on the saw. I just didn't see it.

Also, thanks for the link to the acuset setworks.

Regards,
ppeterson

[FeltzE]

I've got a Baker edger next to my WM saw and I'm happy with both based on their engineered capabilities.

Some Points I'd like to make :

Kerf, I think that kerf is a moot point as the loss in a board here and their is less than the loss of $/hour in production (no one ever seems to make that comparision) Lose a $50 in lumber to kerf in a day or loose a days equivalance in production capabiliy and all the labor $/hr that goes with it.

Rotation of the log, I really like the fact that the Baker mill rotates the cut so that your cutting into the open face of the log it will save on blades, I've been forced when cutting dirty logs to open them up and rotate them by hand or all the way over to get clean cuts (without a debarker) to keep the blades from being dulled in the mud.

I still say that the sawmill is just a support system for the sawblade. Equiped appropriately to the USER's needs and goals.  If you are going to cut to support a hobby buy support equipment accordingly, maybe none. Cutting to meet a weekly quota for profit, determine your weekly production goals and go from there.

Goal, 5mbf or less a week, 1.5 inch band with hydraulics, no helpers, a forklift, debarker

5-10mbf / week 1.5 inch band with hydraulics, no helper, forklift debarker, maybe an edger.

10-15mbf . week 1.5 inch band, hydraulics (faster if possible) 1 employee, edger, forklift, debarker

over 15 mbf, 2 inch or wider blade and all of the above maybe needing more employees. green chain etc. maybe a double direction saw or circle saw.

I think the best advantges of the 1.5 inch mills are economy of operation eg.   Cheap blades, cheap resharpening equipment, portability.

my 2cents  :D

Eric

[Bibbyman]

I found a close-up of a Wood-Mizer scale.



The one on the right is a standard 1" rule.  The one on the left is set for grade sawing 4/4,5/4,6/4,8/4 drops.  The one on the right stays put but the one on the left can be slid up and down to 'zero' out where you want to start cutting and making your drops.  Purdy easy once you get on to it.  

The sight bar is not in the picture.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  LT 70 has a chain turner and you can turn the log either way and saw into clean wood as well.  You can move the station all around and be in better placement to help off bear or load logs..
  In hardwoods the board you save with thin kerf will be in the lower grades.  In softwoods where grade is based on knot placement and size saving a board down inside means smaller knots and the price is about the same for all wood in the log unless it is clear.
ARKANSAWYER

[Bibbyman]

A band saw can save more wood than the difference between the kerf between band and circle.  Our grade broker lets us saw 4/4 1-1/8 thick.  Says with smoother and more accurate thickness,  that's thick enough.  I've seen circle sawn lumber on his lot that looks somewhere between 1-3/16 and 1-1/4.  May have been just their practice. This is just our experience with two brokers.

Another broker we did do business with expected a full 1-1/4" board for 4/4.  I think kind of figured out what he was doing - he'd buy 4/4 but likely most would likely "clean" at 5/4 when dried and planed. Anything that didn't would for sure clean 4/4.

It was like getting a 10% bonus just by going to the borker where 1-1/8 was thick enough. ;)

[FeltzE]

As always, I enjoy the discussion!  

I should have used the word inexpensive instead of cheap earlier, The blades are good blades; inexpensive to buy and maintain. The sharpening equipment can be had new for around $2k compared to the $20+ for the big bands sharpening and leveling equipment

Eric  ;D

[ppeterson]

I visited a grade HW sawmill running an LT300. They were cutting 1-1/4" and selling as 4/4.

I asked why and the answer was: We would rather saw heavy and guarentee 100% usable lumber rather than loose an occasional board due to being thin.

This got me thinking, is this the norm? Is this a trait of the small bandsaws?
They change their saws every hour. Cutting 1100 bf/hour.
Saw was climb cutting in the first 6".

Sure blows the theory of added yield out of the water.
Big time.

Comments?

ppeterson

[EZ]

To me it would make sense to change the blade at 6 or 7 hundred bf and saw all good lumber or slow down a little.
EZ

[FeltzE]

ppete,

In general you have to be very picky about keeping sharp blades on the mill and cutting at speeds within the capability of the blade with adequate feed pressure to assure good production rates without any blade deviation.

The problem is that by the time you can see a problem with the cut it's already too late! You've already cut a deviation.

When I recieved my band mill in 96 one of the teaching points was to lift the saw head just enough to clear the cut and watch the gap between the sawblade and the cant as you gig the head back looking for a uniform (not wavy) gap. Needless to say as I had learned on a circle mill previously, ... I managed achive a wavy cut very quickly pushing the sawhead at circle feed rates!  :(

If you think about it a single poor cut always reduces the quality of 2 boards. The board on each side of the cut.

I believe that the 1.5 inch band mill of any brand should be able to push 2000 bd ft (or more) of 4/4 lumber edged every 8 hrs without fail. Assuming the logs are clean, sawgrade, free of tramp metal and that the sawyer keeps sharp blades on the mill.

I'm happy with my mill! It works as advertised without many maintenance needs, it keeps on sawing. The economy of using an inexpensive band is important to me as I cut alot of residential tree service provided logs which contain a LOT of damaging tramp metal. I couldn't imagine cutting as much steel as I have and being cost efficient on a more expensive blade.  ;)

Eric

[ARKANSAWYER]

   OK let me clear up a few points.   I got a few e-mails here at the house about my post.  I will answer them all here at one time.
  
    1.   You have to remember that we all use different scales to buy logs on and even circle mills have some over run of the log scale.   Yes you can get 50 bdft from a 12" log with a band mill that you only paid for 32 bdft.  But a circle mill can cut a 7x9 tie and a board  or two from the same log and scale out 46+ bdft.  This I know for a fact as I have cut thousands of them.  Do not confuse over run of the scale with over run between band and circle blades.

    2.  Yes, I know WoodMizer has a log that they sawed up and compaired it to one sawed by a circle mill and had lots more lumber.  Yes, there was a lot of sawdust.  But the whole log just about was cut into 1x4's and no cant was taken out of the middle.  If you look at the way the boards were sawn  from the log most would be of no use.  Now had the logs been sawn for grade the WM would still have had a few more boards and possibly better grade of lumber BUT would have taken well over twice as long as the circle mill even with the best small band mill (bands under 2 inches) any one makes.

    3.   It is the cost and ability to set up any where that make band mills shine.  There are portable circle mills.  IT IS EASIER to learn to saw on a band mill and if the machine is set up right and the blade is sharp it will make good lumber.  Band mills by nature are a lot safer.  (MD's are really for softwoods)

   4.  NO I do not hate swingers and will one day own one.  But they have a use and are not for every one and the production rates they can hit can not be done all day every day and make you rich!  Small logs are just a fact of life and getting more so every day.  Most lumber produced in North America come from logs no larger then 6 inch top and 15 inch butt at tree length.

   5.  Yes I have seen the articles in the trade Mags that tell how you can get rich sawing with a bandmill.  Some of them use that fuzzy math and it does not really work out here in the real world where steel and wood collide and saw dust flys.  I make my living  sawing and saw just about every day of the week.  It is getting the logs that is the main problem you will face.  I know you are covered up with them now but wait till you really own the mill and start sawing 2,500 bdft a day.

  As for the main post that started this thread I will get back to the facts.  He needs a mill that will run day in and day out.  He needs a mill that will be repairable because they all will break down some time.  He needs a mill that will hold up to hard use day in and day out.   He needs a mill that he can afford blades for.  He needs a loader, edger, re-saw, cant hooks, chainsaw and parts, racks, lots or room, building, sheds, and many more things just laying around waiting to be needed.  Now it will all come down to him getting good logs and finding a place to go with every thing he cuts.  The best I have seen at this is Bro. Noble. His operation is running lean and making the best of what is on hand and wasting nothing that he can sell, and he sells it all.
  As for the choice that was needed to be made I will still go with the LT70 and if cutting good size hardwoods the 62 CAT would be the best bet if not electric.
ARKANSAWYER
  P.S.  The most I have said all day.
  

[Jeff]

That wasn't just a bunch a talking Arky, You had some good thinking going on there too!  ;)

[Bibbyman]

I never knowed Arky to be lost for words.  :D

[FeltzE]

Cudo's to Arky

In addition concur, yep, agree, and GCS (Good Common Sense)! 8) 8)

Eric

[VA-Sawyer]

Hey Arky,

I think all those grits are going to your brain... and making it grow !   :D

VA-Sawyer

[VA-Sawyer]

I'm thinking that the LT-70 and the 300 share a number of common parts. If you are really looking to move up to a 300 in the future, I would give extra consideration to the LT-70 as it will save a little on the learning curve down the road.
VA-Sawyer