Saw jobs and pin oak

[homesteader1972]

I've got my mill up and running good and already have a couple folks asking to do some sawing. What should a new sawyer charge. I want to be fair, both to them and myself, as well as to build a good reputation. I was thinking charging by the bdft would be the fairest, but what is a god starting place. I wasn't planning to saw for others yet, but hate to turn down business.

Also,I am looking at some logs, of which one is a pin oak. Are they good for sawing for lumber? The man at Koppers says he wont take them as ties. Wondering if they are good for anything besides firewood. Worth paying for?

Thanks in advance.

[sealark37]

You might inform the customer that you and the mill are new to each other.  Suggest a basic price to saw his logs, plus ruined bands if you encounter metal.  If this price turns out a bit low, then call it "sawing school".  This approach leaves little room for his complaints, unless you ruin his job.  Pin oak can be an enigma.  If the tree came from a residential setting, where it was fed fertilizer long term, the lumber can be low quality, prone to shake and checking.  I have sawed pin oak that came from a field or forest that was on a par with white oak in grain, density, and workability.  The only way to find what you have is to saw it and air or kiln dry the product.  I have a boat builder that still asks for pin oak, but it has been a while since I have seen a good log.   Good Luck, and Regards, Clark

[Wellmud]

I found myself in a similar situation, bought a mill mostly for my own use but a relative of my wife had some ash trees that the county cut from the road bank and wanted them sawed. I looked at them and inquired as to whether there had ever been a fence there and was told not in the 50 plus years they had the farm, so I just gave him a flat price thinking as Sealark said I would just get some schooling for myself. The logs were all 30-32 inches, a big task for a new sawyer with a new to me mill, on the second log about 8 inches in from the outside, I missed the 5 inch spike but sawed right into the porcelain insulator it was running through, trashed the blade but I took it as part of my education, next time I will price it plus broken blades.

[Magicman]

You do not have your location on your profile and location does seem to matter with sawing rates.  I agree with Clark about informing the customer about your sawing experience.  You need to get some sawing jobs under your belt to gain confidence and experience.  $200-$250 plus damaged blades is a reasonable rate, at least in my area.

[homesteader1972]

Thanks for the replies,

Spoke with him today and it looks like 14 pine logs and 17 or more oak. He's wanting to build a small cabin. Studs, joists, flooring,board and battens etc... I'll go look at it in the next day or two, try to come up with a price. Then he has two neighbors that have some logs to saw too.

Any more input is very, very welcome.

Also, I am going to call Woodmizer for a few things, what all should I have with me in the way of backup parts.

Thanks again.

[Magicman]

I would not think that you would need any "spare parts".  Sure, I do have some parts that I have accumulated, but I never expect a breakdown while sawing.

[drobertson]

I've sawn a few pin oaks, no issues hear, nice lumber.  As far as the pricing, I would do the same as suggested by MM,  making sure the customer knows the situation.   As far as spare parts, a pair of band wheel belts is always a good idea, and not too costly, spare blades goes without saying.   Sounds like a great way to get into sawing for others. Most folks are very forgiving on any miscuts, knowing that most can be planed down and used somewhere.  The price is key, to much and perfection is expected, moderate and there will be wiggle room,     david

[strunk57]

Im still pretty new, I still have not enough experience under me to calculate cost....ect, what ive always done is use the search box here in the forum and get kind of a avg rate different people charge on here, then add the job up and see if it is worth it to me to do it (have not turned down one job) but sawing others logs I charge .25-.30 bdft. Being mobile most guys here charge milage after Xmiles, setup fee, hit metal fee(price of blade) + bdft and require an off bearer. Lots of good info on here the search box has become my best friend.

[Ianab]

Thing with pin oak is that the trees retain their lower branches, and the logs tend to have more knots than the average oak log. So most mills don't want them as they wont produce much high grade wood. But if you have a use for lower grade boards, it's a good as any other red oak.

What I suggest is you price your job at the going rate locally, by the bd/ft. Being a new sawyer you might be slower, but this doesn't affect the customer. Doesn't matter to them if it takes YOU twice as long as it should. Sure what you earn per hour might be down, but as long as you are recovering costs with the mill, it's not a problem if you are actually working for minimum wage. That's the "sawmill school" that someone mentioned before. As you get better, you will be able to earn a better hourly rate.

Of course metal damage is the customers problem, unless it's you hitting the back stops, then it's part of "sawmill school" and you wear it.

Ian

[Ron Wenrich]

I've sawn my fair share of pin oak.  Whether they're any good depends on what you're going to use them for.  Some have shake, some develop shake, and some will be OK.  With experience, you'll get to figure out which ones will saw out and which ones won't.  You'll also be able to figure out how to saw around some defect.

Pin oak doesn't self prune very well.  That means there will be plenty of knots, especially as you work your way through the log.  For a finish project, like flooring or trim, those knots can become loose and they will not mill out very well.  From a structural standpoint, it doesn't make very good support due to all the knots.  The boards will also be prone to warping. 

[homesteader1972]

Hello all,

Thanks for all the information and help. I went to see the job today and it looked pretty strait forward, and he is a nice guy. Quoted him .25 bdft and replace any bands due to metal, and he gladly accepted. There's about 2000 bdft now, and he will likely cut more once I start sawing. Any more counsel, freely give.

Thanks again

[slider]

I do not want to discourage you but I would not saw for a fee until you have some experience with the mill and feel confident that you can produce a good product without the customer looking over your shoulder.When I started sawing I ran into several situations that made me glad that it was my wood and my mistake.When you are trying to figure out what's going wrong and adding boards to the slab pile and your customer is standing there it is something you should not have to deal with.al

[drobertson]

Slider, I can in one hand appreciate your suggestion on being cautious,, and on the other have to say go for it.  I still have my first dollar in a frame from 05' from my first customer, and the scenario was carbon copy.  This said, all went well, and have been sawing for him on and off since.  I have some figured oak to saw soon as the weather permits.  this said, experience takes time.  Feel out the situation, make all unknowns as clear as possible and go for it.  There is no time like the present.   david

[YellowHammer]

Homesteader,
Sawing under the pressure of customers watching and helping is always a little nerve wracking.  Control the situation and get into your "groove."  I keep people away from the mill, behind me, so they won't get hurt or distract me with their chatting.  Move just a little slower to give yourself time to think.  Don't let them, or yourself get hurt. Change blades a little more frequently than needed because a fresh, sharp band will counter a lot of feed and speed mistakes and help defend against the "wave."  Have fun and enjoy the ride.
YH

[dboyt]

That's a pretty good-size first job.  If you are pretty confident in your mechanical abilities, you should be able to work through problems as they come up.  Start out with the pine, as you'll find it more forgiving than the oak.  Pine is enough easier that I would charge 5 cents per board ft more for the oak.  Since this fellow and his neighbors are interested in more sawing down the line, make it clear that what you charge is an "introductory" price.  Otherwise, you may find yourself in a situation where you are expected to mill more lumber at the same price, even if it is not profitable to you.

[homesteader1972]

Thanks for the concern and encouragement. I have to admit to some apprehension on sawing for someone else right off the bat. But a few things helped me decide to go ahead. First and most important to me, I feel the Lord is in it. James 1:17 says "every good and perfect gift is from above", and this is pretty good. I was also up front with the man about just getting this mill and not using it much, and told him if I cant cut him good wood I'd pack up and leave and not charge him for anything, but a two liter Mountain Dew. 800 bdft of the job is 1x siding, the rest is mostly 2x framing, looks pretty strait forward. I also put if off two weeks to give me some time to saw some more of my stuff, and hopefully have 20-25 tie logs coming in the morning. So all in all, I feel pretty good about it, but am remaining humble and teachable.

Thanks again

[5quarter]

   Pin oak grades lower than most other oaks because of the knots. % of clear lumber is not as high as other oaks. However, I think it has some of the best color. lots of pink and tan with occasional dark brown (mineral stain) lines. It is denser than other oaks so be prepared to do some lifting. I think you'll do just fine.