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scaling logs fist fight

Started by yarnammurt, December 29, 2013, 04:15:30 PM

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yarnammurt

Have you ever had anyone bring you logs and then scale the logs and the owner think he is getting screwed. People think there logs are worth gold. Had a guy showup and when we scaled he thought I dindnt have a clue as to what I was doing
. Said we knows that is not right. I get on my phone on the internet show him and still no good. He took his load he had on and came back for the first load.  :-\
ATS 10" Peterson, 09 New Holland 4x4 TL90 with loader, 125hp White,2 2009 Kawasaki 610 mules,

york

Small booklet,called "log rules"you should have it in your truck,not sure what it cost now...315-369-3078

published by northeastern loggers association,inc.
Albert

yarnammurt

ATS 10" Peterson, 09 New Holland 4x4 TL90 with loader, 125hp White,2 2009 Kawasaki 610 mules,

CX3

This happens to me a few times a year on the logging side of things.  I will bring the scale tickets back and a semi load brings say 12-1900 bucks.  Well a few landowners a year think that is not enough money or I am trying to put the screws to em.  Usually after telling them that is only about 17-20 trees, they settle down pretty quick.  I can only imagine having a sawmill and what you guys hear in and out every day. 
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

beenthere

yarnammurt

How did you scale the logs?

Using a scale stick?

What on the internet did you use? By chance, did you use the tool box here on the Forum?

We can help you over the humps, and help defend the scale you get.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Birchwood Logging

Did he dispute the fottage or the grade
John Deere 700H with winch, John Deere 550A with winch, Cat 232 Skid Steer,Cat 262c Skid Steer, Wood Mizer Lt 40 super HD, Ford F-700 and F-600 log trucks, Ford F-450 dump truck

yarnammurt

I used a stick, Doyle. He did not like the BF #. Yes even showed him the tool box on here, And a video on the net of how to scale. He is a logger and has only sold buy the ton. So he said he was getting screwed. 
ATS 10" Peterson, 09 New Holland 4x4 TL90 with loader, 125hp White,2 2009 Kawasaki 610 mules,

beenthere

Helps to know that.
If he now takes those logs to a mill buying by weight, he will know your scale and what he gets for his weight. Might be an eye-opener for him.

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

POSTON WIDEHEAD

I agree Beenthere......there is a reason this guy USED to sell by weight. He probably grumbled about that too.

Just be nice and professional to them......they'll be back.
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

drobertson

I say let him have them back,  nothing worth fightin' over, some folks just don't know, they think they know, maybe want to know, but greed sets in, and its over,   david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

LeeB

Let him have them back. Tell him he's free to load them up and you'll gladly refund his money.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

yarnammurt

He is getting them back in the morning. The mill is paying $50 ton for pine logs. I took 6" top the mill takes 10".
ATS 10" Peterson, 09 New Holland 4x4 TL90 with loader, 125hp White,2 2009 Kawasaki 610 mules,

Ron Wenrich

I once had a guy that disputed my grade.  He said the footage was OK.  He told me he was bringing his cutter to the mill and he was going to look them over.  The cutter had been a sawyer, so he supposedly knew grade.  He told the guy that my grade was actually better than what he would have given.  I didn't get anymore logs from them, but it was good to know that someone else liked my grade.

Let them take the logs.  I wouldn't forget in case he comes knocking on the door about you buying logs.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

red oaks lumber

i had a guy like that once, after we got done scaling he didnt like the tally so, i got back in the skid steer and loaded his logs back on his trailer. he asked me what i was doing? i said i changed my mind. :) sometimes i just dont want to educate people about wood.
some of you guys have maybe figured out i can have a short fuse at times :D
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

bandmiller2

A good many folks in the logging milling business are stubborn, and opinionated rascals. Convincing them of anything is like shoveling sand agenst the tide.I don't argue and freely give the names of competitors, if they don't like my system. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

drobertson

I had only one scale/grade discussion a few years back, there was no issues, just an education for me in regards to what most of the old timer loggers expect, it leaned more to the grade of the log than the scale, he just wanted compensation for the appropriate grade, mainly for the reason that half went to the land owner.  As a side note, I scaled the logs for the shoot out this past Oct. Had one of the reps from a competitor mention he had not seen this close of scale between two scalers,  he was very pleased, as was I.  When I first started milling I asked around as to methods, the common response was call the logs as they are,  can't go wrong.  Some folks just can't be pleased,   david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

wormy

hey can some one please post pics and details on how they grade logs. this seems interesting to me since i have no ideal on how to grade.

beenthere

Often nowadays, the grades settle to a simple decision on the number of clear faces of the "four" faces of a hardwood log.
In general (and it depends on the mill buying sawlogs),
4 clear faces  = Veneer
3 clear faces  = No. 1 grade
2 clear faces  = No. 2
1 clear face    =  No. 3
0 clear           =  Below grade.

There can be many variations of what is allowed in a clear face, and what the mills are cutting be it tie logs, pallet logs, NHLA graded lumber, house logs, beams, timbers, etc.

Years back, the USDA FS published standard hardwood factory log grades and published yield tables for each grade by species and diameters. If the same rules are used to grade logs,  one can get a very close prediction of how their logs will/should grade out and yield in bd.ft and value.

http://www.fs.fed.us/ne/newtown_square/publications/research_papers/pdfs/scanned/rp468a.pdf
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

slider

Red Oaks ,short fuse no way .He is such a nice man.
al glenn

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: red oaks lumber on December 30, 2013, 07:20:57 AM

some of you guys have maybe figured out i can have a short fuse at times :D

I have a long fuse.  smiley_nananana
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Peter Drouin

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on December 30, 2013, 06:03:06 PM
Quote from: red oaks lumber on December 30, 2013, 07:20:57 AM

some of you guys have maybe figured out i can have a short fuse at times :D

I have a long fuse.  smiley_nananana


:D :D :D :D :D :D ;D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Ron Wenrich

Here is a paper the Feds wrote on log grading.  http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrp/fplrp63.pdf  Its an old paper, but not much has changed since then.  Here's one from University of Tennessee:  https://utextension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/PB1772.pdf  It also reflects the Forest Service method for log and tree grading.  I've used these grades, but many mills make their own grades.

One mill I worked at used different grades for different species.  Tulip poplar often had a different kind of grading system, due to the products we were cutting, for example.  Short logs and small diameter logs will always grade out much tougher than a long log.  Some mills also have a tie grade.

When you grade your logs, you will have different prices for different grades.  That reflects the value of the lumber coming out of the logs.  If all you cut is construction lumber, then your grade wouldn't matter too much.  If you cut only RR ties, then you wouldn't need really good logs, so your prices would reflect that.  But, if you also had high end grade lumber that you were getting, then your log grades should reflect the amount you can get from the log.  Also, size limits should reflect the higher mfg costs that go into small logs and short logs.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

stavebuyer

I am sure you scaled the logs honestly and correctly but the seller may average more dollars per truckload when selling to the per ton mill. The $50 a ton a mill is paying for crooks, odd lengths, splits, butt swells etc. and they may have more in what their net log cost is than you can profitably pay. You can't please everyone or always out-bid every competitor. Load them back and forget it. Personally I think its bad form on his part; the honorable thing to do would be to sell you the logs already delivered and take his future loads to the per ton market if that's where he thinks his logs bring better.

SwampDonkey

Up here in NB we have a legislated log rule and scaling manual. If I go to X mill his scale and log grading should be similar to DNR or a small private mill. Grading is also certified. We deal with softwood mostly up here. Hardwood is also scaled on NB rule in province or Bangor rule if sold to Maine. They are close to International log rule. Doyle and other log rules are not used. Since we have smaller logs, Doyle would put a hurt'n on scale on logs under 14". Commercial mills here take softwood logs down to 5" top, hardwood 9".
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Wudman

On small diameter logs, Doyle will underestimate the actual volume.  For example, a 10 inch scaling diameter 16 foot log will scale 16 board feet according to the Doyle Rule (Form Class 80).  If that 10" log will squares up to a 6x6, you have 48 board feet plus the side boards. A 4x4 will scale 21 bd ft.  If you were buying to a 6" top, Doyle would have returned a very low yield to the buyer.  International 1/4 Inch rule will come closer to the actual recovery for most logs.  I am a seller.  Mostly of smaller diameter logs.  I prefer weight myself. 

Wudman
"You may tear down statues and burn buildings but you can't kill the spirit of patriots and when they've had enough this madness will end."
Charlie Daniels
July 4, 2020 (2 days before his death)

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