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Buying gold?

Started by Woodhauler, December 23, 2013, 06:36:21 PM

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Woodhauler

What is the difference in the purity of it? It all costs the same. 22carat 24 carat.
2013 westernstar tri-axle with 2015 rotobec elite 80 loader!Sold 2000 westernstar tractor with stairs air ride trailer and a 1985 huskybrute 175 T/L loader!

thechknhwk

Carat conversion:
58.33% - 62.50% = 14k (acclaimed 58.33%)
75.00% - 79.16% = 18k (acclaimed 75.00%)
91.66% - 95.83% = 22k (acclaimed 91.66%)
95.83% - 99.95% = 23k (acclaimed 95.83%)
99.95 and above = 24k (acclaimed 99.99%)

You should pay less for 22K.

Silver is a better bargain.

Woodhauler

Quote from: thechknhwk on December 23, 2013, 07:31:22 PM
Carat conversion:
58.33% - 62.50% = 14k (acclaimed 58.33%)
75.00% - 79.16% = 18k (acclaimed 75.00%)
91.66% - 95.83% = 22k (acclaimed 91.66%)
95.83% - 99.95% = 23k (acclaimed 95.83%)
99.95 and above = 24k (acclaimed 99.99%)

You should pay less for 22K.

Silver is a better bargain.
buying it for the grand kids ! Allready thinking about mixing it up, gold and silver.
2013 westernstar tri-axle with 2015 rotobec elite 80 loader!Sold 2000 westernstar tractor with stairs air ride trailer and a 1985 huskybrute 175 T/L loader!

SPIKER

I would AVOID buying gold, or Silver for them.   I would talk to them and ask them what Companies they liked and buy them some shares of stock.   Most specifically I would look for stocks that pay dividends.   Right now Gold is on a point where it could fall back well below 600/ounce.   It was up in the 1700+ this time last year if I'm not mistaking & sets now about 1200.


Stocks or Bonds that pay dividends in the 4% or more range is what I would look at..


Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

doctorb

I am no financial planner, but I agree with Spiker.  As a long term investment for your grandkids, I would not go with precious metals.  You want something that will grow over time.  Precious metals, while very hot over the last 5 or so years, had a meltdown this year.  That's not going to help your kids.

My view, again, as somebody who tries to learn about this stuff but who is no expert, is that you want more upward potential than gold or silver.  Some people have them as "doomsday" investments, when everything else goes to pot they should go way up, but barring that eventuality, talk to a firm about a plan to maximize your money for college tuition - say 15-18 years from now.  That ain't gold.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

LaneC

If you have your heart set on gold or silver, silver is about 40% cheaper than it was a year ago. A good monitoring site for the price is KITCO.com  You can monitor the changes, spot prices and everything else.
Man makes plans and God smiles

Ianab

I'm with Dr B here.

The thing with precious metals etc is that they don't "Earn" money. They will probably increase in value over the long term, at about the same rate as inflation. But in the mean time they can go up and down like a yoyo. But if your Great Grandfather had stashed a couple of pounds of gold away 100 years ago, and you dug it up today, it will only have about the same purchasing power.

Mean while it's actually cost you money to store it. A safe? Insurance?  keeping it a shoe box under the bet isn't really a "safe" investment?

Sure some folks wheel and deal in it, and make money. But for every one of them, someone else lost out.

The idea of buying  shares appeals more to me. Not as a short term speculation thing, but as  long term investment. There are of course various levels of risk. Some are about as good an investment as the lottery. Others are much more conservative, lower dividend and growth, but relatively safe.

For example, one we have a small investment in for Lara that buys / builds Commercial properties and leases them to business. Risk is spread over multiple properties in several cities. They don't have any significant borrowing to finance the properties as they are bought outright with the investor funds. So an economic downturn where some of the buildings are empty  for a while isn't fatal, it just means a lower dividend / fall in share price. The buildings and land are still there.

But of course you don't put all your eggs in one basket. Diversify.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

terry f

   Kitco's forum is a fun read, and you'll find out there's no such thing as a precious metals expert, some are just lucky. Its one of the few investments that has to go up 10 to 20 percent just to break even. I just looked at kitco and spot is 19.39 and a silver eagle is 23.48. I was going to buy a gold buffalo if it got to 1500, last spring it fell through the 1500 mark so fast it scared me, now its at 1250 and I wouldn't touch it. Good advice above on where to put your money, but you can't beat the feel and sound of silver. If you do buy, buy what's pleasing to your eye, and you can't beat proof sets for that.

Ron Wenrich

Now for the other point of view.  I don't know if you're using it as a hedge against currency, but that is what most that invest long term use it for.  If you're buying it for jewelry, its good to know the composition of how much gold is in a piece so you have a good base for comparison shopping.

Right now, gold is priced about at the extraction price.  It can't drop too much more or the mines shut down.  That eliminates new supply.  There are several mines that have closed and new exploration is put on hold.  The other drag on the market is all the naysayers that are saying that gold has no future.  When everyone says to sell, its usually a good time to buy.

Why did gold drop in value?  One of the reasons is the problems in Europe.  If you remember back about this time last year, Cyprus was confiscating cash over a certain amount in bank accounts.  That's now going to be the way things are done in Europe.  If a bank falters, they'll confiscate money over accounts $100k Euros.  So, the wealthy have invested in things other than gold.  Artwork, antiques and other collectibles have gone way up in value.  Dylan's Newport electric guitar just sold for $965,000, for example.  These things are looked at as investments, and go up and down in value, just like gold or stocks.  When this buying frenzy is over, they may well go back to gold.

If you're buying for a long term investment, blue chip stocks are also good.  Right now the market has been inflated by the Fed and their monetary policy.  Banks have been putting money into the market for better returns, and that's what has buoyed up the prices.  But, higher interest rates are on the horizon and banks will now longer be able to dabble in the markets in 2015.  The Fed is also slowing the money taps, so you have to ask yourself how high do you think markets will go?  As Europe gets into deeper problems, some of that money will flow into the markets, so 2014 will probably be an OK year, but not as good as this year.  I remember a lot of state pension plans getting into deep trouble because the thinking in the '90s was that the market returns would go on forever.  We had conquered the business cycle.

So. if you're buying for investment or hedging purposes, gold's luster has diminished.  If you're buying for the beauty of the product, now's a good time to buy.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

thechknhwk

There was just a good piece on PBS about how the fed is inflating the markets.  So if you believe such things (I do) then the market is overpriced and gold/silver is under priced.  Gold and silver never truly lose value because their value is intrinsic.  The dollar on the other hand has been devalued to near death, and you cannot deny the resulting inflation unless you believe the CPI (doesn't include food, fuel, or energy).  Also the trading on the comex affects the melt value of gold/silver.  So these "investors" for lack of a better word are trading paper and dramatically affecting the "price" in dollars.  There have been huge sell offs in the past year that have sent the price downward.  There was even a congressional hearing regarding market manipulation.  Now is the ideal time to buy, buy, buy.  If you have bought during the peaks now is the time to do some serious cost averaging.  Just think of it as trading your fiat dollars (backed by the full faith and credit of the US gov't) for real tangible money.  The valuation in dollars then becomes truly irrelevant.  If you still want to get into the markets I would suggest closely watching the QE, and when they even threaten to taper or stop it the market bombs.  That would be the time to unload the stocks :D  I'm not a market or gold/silver analyst, but these are merely my personal opinions.

http://youtu.be/gAscgrCnrHI

DanG

There is an easy way to tell if gold is a good deal or not.  If the has-been actors on TV are telling you to buy, then sell.  If they are trying to buy your gold, then keep it. ;D
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Cedarman

DanG, you sure are contrary, I mean contrarian. :D :D
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

firecord

Maybe i missed it but how much you planning to spend?  I considered this when i first had kids.  Not knowing much about stocks i decided on land.  bought 3 acres for each kid @ 900 per acre.  although none of them built on their part they will always have it.

ancjr

I've not done terribly with scrap metal.  Just pick up something that has scrap value - may even find someone willing to pay you to take it.  Let it sit behind the barn until you need the money.  Holds value better than any politician or celebrity's word!

Delawhere Jack

Everything Ron said, plus. Equities are at all time highs, as are PE ratios in most cases.  Fed money printing is the only thing levitating stocks. As an example:

Fed buying $1.020 trillion in bonds per year in 2013.
US GDP somewhere on the order of $15 trillion/yr in 2013.
Fed bond buying therefore accounts for approx 6.6% of GDP.
3rd quarter GDP reported as 4.1% annualized (I m HIGHLY skeptical of that number, but...)

Subtract 6.6 from 4.1 and you've got a growth rate of -2.5%.......... :'(

My advice. Listen to everything Bloomberg and CNBC tell you......then do the exact opposite.

Oh, and Merry Christmas!

wolf nemeth

Buy low, sell high. Not a difficult concept.
Stocks are at a record high. they may go a bit higher, and then.......
Gold and silver are at (appx) 3 year lows.  they may go a bit lower, and then.....   Hmmmm.....
   Solyndra stocks  looked great (thanks to the spin doctors) until they didn't. Now you can line your birdcage with them.
Chrysler bonds were guaranteed, until a certain president voided contract law. We certainly envy those blue-chip GMC stockholders from 2008, right?
.. The fools at CNBC are no more than cheerleaders. (Sorry,no  offense meant toward cheerleaders).
    On the other hand, there are also  plenty of sharks  pushing precious metals.  Be careful with gold and buy only from Kitco or Monex or Blanchard  (who all also sell silver) Ebay has chased lots of  counterfeiters off their site.   In terms of authenticity, you are better off with silver, because it is less rewarding to counterfeit . Kind of like printing $1bills instead of $50 bills. ...
  Ultimately, you had better know why you want something before you  decide to leap.  And that suggestion about  buying real estate was not too shabby.
Good luck, and  don't put too much faith in the 'experts'; they are the ones who claim they never saw the crash coming
If you  don't know where you're going, you'll probably end up somewhere else!

coxy

I like the land part ya it goes up and down like every thing else BUT they don't make it any more  :D

SPIKER

Just wanted to put out a bit more info, collected from Yahoo Finance & KITCO London metals exchange historical prices.

Yahoo Finance Link

http://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/yearly_graphs.plx


Gold in 1998 mid year was 250/ounce today it is around 1250/ounce.   this time last year I think it was 1750/ounce.   Gold itself has little value other than as a minor industrial metal or as jewelery.   It's VALUE is only as good as what someone else is willing to pay for it.   With many asset classes in stocks and many sectors the better older and more established companies offer Dividends which you can reinvest into MORE stock or keep in a market account and have earned income on it.

For example as stated above gold at 250/oz best buy in mid year 1998  and sell it now for 1250/oz you earned $1000.00 on ONE ounce of that priced gold.   It would be a GOOD investment.   However you may have just bought gold in Aug 2010 for 1800/oz and sold it today for $1250 a $550.00 loss.

Lets say you bought an Energy Company or Utility. I'm gonna use (DUK) Duke Energy it is a very big name in Utilities Gas, Electricity etc. and in  1998 July it was ~50/share so makes some calculations easy.

Lets say you buy 10 shares for a total of $500.00 (share price for DUK was ~$50 in 1998.)
 

Now you set on the stock and it PAYS dividends, SPLITS (grows/shrinks is share count) and you can reinvest the dividends in stock so in place of being paid cash you get more shares.

This is easy to follow if I can word it correctly as share price up/down + dividends accrued over time.
You buy "10shares" for $500.00 of (DUK) plus you receive quarterly dividends and splits (by Jan 2001 stock is worth $67/share and you were paid $4.79 dividends per share in that time frame so 4.79*10=$47.79 in dividends.) 
   On your $500 dollar investment in Jan 2001 was worth $670+47.79= $717.79  (not reinvesting dividends into more stock with this simple formula but if you do it grows much faster.)   NOT SELLING IT (LET IT RIDE!)

Now in 2001 the stock did a 2:1 split.   NOW that share quantity goes to 20 shares.   This share price fluctuates but dividends stay paying out same till Aug of 2006 where it changed from .4794cents/share to .5404/share.   

   By this change point you have collected an additional $8.1498/share = 20*8.1498=$163+ (stock share price at that time of 20 shares @~ $50.00/share = $1000.00) so that account would be worth ~$1210.79

COMPARE that to same buy date for same amount of initial investment in GOLD> in Aug of 2005 Gold 2oz (same input cost of $500 bucks in 1998) would be worth ~675/oz or $1350.00...   The gold would be a better investment over this time span WITHOUT reinvesting the dividends.


Now you collect increased dividends for the next year where the stock does a revers split.   20 shares * $2.737= $54.74 in dividends into the account.

Total dividends from 1998 into 2007 is now 54.74 + 210.79 = 265.53


but wait the STOCK does 2 more splits (one revers split and one 3:1) and continues to pay dividends you end up owning 11.622 shares

Jan 2007 it does a funky split (10000:5811) so you would end up with
11shares plus .622* share price of one share in cash ($35.79) as share price at time was ~57.56.    The Dividends increase from 2007 up thru into July 2013
at that point the stock splits 3:1 so you end up with 33 shares and the dividends added in that time is an additional 171.05 + previous dividends of 265.53 = $436.58 + (33 shares valued at 66.74/share $2202.42) = $2639.00

Gold in July 2013=1220/oz so would be worth ~$2440.00 the stock gets you more$ in this time frame.


HERE is the real kicker, according the average stock analysis if you "REINVEST" the dividends in more of the Stock you can basically double you're return in 7 years so that time frame is (1998 to 2013) you could have doubled and redoubled the above dividend profit numbers which would really put the return on Gold under the table...

Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

den

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thechknhwk

If you can't physically protect it you don't truly own it.

Also your inflation adjusted $500 from 1998 is now $1332.91 @4%, and that is probably conservative.  This also illustrates another point, the money that would buy you 2oz in 1998 now only gets you appx 1oz.

Ron Wenrich

Let's say that we don't cherry pick data.  It doesn't matter whether we're talking about gold vs stocks or thin kerf vs circle mill kerf.  If you dig deep enough, anyone can find sufficient data to support a position.

Gold is a market sector.  Duke Energy is not.  It is a portion of the energy sector.  Some mining stocks made money, some didn't.  Some energy sectors lost money.  I know, since I invest in only stocks that seemingly lose money.   :D 

If you want a  diversified portfolio, you need money in lots of different sectors.  I would never suggest that people put all their money in any type of investments, whether its real estate, bonds, stocks or commodities.  Blending is the key.  Some market sectors go up, some go down.  Stocks got pounded in 2008-09 where bonds soared.  Real estate lost extreme amounts of value.   

For the record, I dabble in commodities as an income source.  I wish I was more successful, but I follow these things daily.  I also have funds in dividend stocks, and in bonds.  Would I give my grandkids a 1 oz gold bullion vs an Xbox?  Let's look at utility.  Long term, the bullion has more intrinsic value.  As for utility, the Xbox has more instant gratification.   I've never seen a kid playing with an oz of gold.  Search for the meaning of the investment.  Sometimes your desired outcome is much different from the actual one.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SPIKER

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on December 24, 2013, 11:37:47 PM
Let's say that we don't cherry pick data.  It doesn't matter whether we're talking about gold vs stocks or thin kerf vs circle mill kerf.  If you dig deep enough, anyone can find sufficient data to support a position.

Ron: I didn't try to cherry pick any specific stock other than it needed to meet the general terms for a LONG TERM holding, Stable, Pays Dividend, Well known, Mid/Large Cap, no real fear of a major collapse.   I could have done the same for any one of the top ten utility sector stocks.   There are EFTs that replicate a basket of stocks but there are hidden fees and the like so better off doing a bit of research for your own investing.   Just so happens I have owned DUKE in the past and tonight they did a spot on them on 60Min. :D

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on December 24, 2013, 11:37:47 PM
...  Some energy sectors lost money.  I know, since I invest in only stocks that seemingly lose money.   :D 

Not the only person that feels that way ;) :laugh:   Been there myself at different times.


Quote from: Ron Wenrich on December 24, 2013, 11:37:47 PM
If you want a  diversified portfolio, you need money in lots of different sectors.  I would never suggest that people put all their money in any type of investments, whether its real estate, bonds, stocks or commodities.  Blending is the key.  Some market sectors go up, some go down.  Stocks got pounded in 2008-09 where bonds soared.  Real estate lost extreme amounts of value.   
I totally agree with that, but GOLD and SILVER are in a bear trend right now as are MOST metals, Steel, Aluminum STOCKS are coming up while the materials are reversing, stocks will soon follow fir they don't provide a good value added service.


Quote from: Ron Wenrich on December 24, 2013, 11:37:47 PM
For the record, I dabble in commodities as an income source.  I wish I was more successful, but I follow these things daily.  I also have funds in dividend stocks, and in bonds.  Would I give my grandkids a 1 oz gold bullion vs an Xbox?  Let's look at utility.  Long term, the bullion has more intrinsic value.  As for utility, the Xbox has more instant gratification.   I've never seen a kid playing with an oz of gold.  Search for the meaning of the investment.  Sometimes your desired outcome is much different from the actual one.

I have not bought much into Commodities or Currencies (explored them but did not feel worth it.)    Stocks I can get my head around with SEC filings etc I can read up on them see what they produce ((F) Ford for cars, or (EXC) Exlon Energy or (X) US Steel all are stocks/companies that I can see what they make.   A Gold Ring Wedding Band or Necklaces I can see value in but as a NEW Jewelery the price drops, (used market is gold value not artistic value any longer.)   A "Gold Bar" has only the intrinsic industrial value (contacts or electronic parts contacts etc.   Price fluctuations are tied to USD (US Dollar) denomination so gold price is always in USD so what most people say is if we print more $ dollars then the value of $dollars MUST drop as a fiat currency (not backed by anything other than good faith of USA.)   What the gold bugs were saying didn't really happen however.  The PRICE of gold has gone UP but mainly due to speculation and all the cell phone-electronics explosion helping to push it up.    There is a LOT of gold in the ground and seas & costs to get it out of most places is well below what it is selling for NOW at $1250ish. I think FCX (Freeport McMorann) is around $400/oz from old SEC documents.   They do more Copper & have a out of ground cost for that in the 1.40 range & copper sells for 3.26 as of yesterday...   (Bout time to strip out some more old wiring lol.)

Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

ancjr


SwampDonkey

If I was buying Gold I woulda bought it back 20 years ago, not when it shot up in value during this economic turmoil. An old timer I knew was on about buying it back then as well. Now if i had just bought a bunch at $350 an ounce and sold at $1700 to the suckers that think backwards. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

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Woodhauler

Mrs. Beaver and I are both avid coin collectors and Buyers and Sellers for profit. I will share with you our experience and what we suggest. Take the info for what it is worth. I have been buying and selling coins for over 30 years. Currently I have over 1050 of them listed on line. We buy large collections, keep the ones we want for our personal collections, and then sell the remainder off through a wide variety of channels and personal contacts. Having done this so long, I literally know a collector with cash in hand ready and willing to buy just about any coin we wish to sell and know what they will pay for them.

We generally do not buy Gold, only because it is harder to find buyers for it at the exact moment you want to sell it due to its higher selling price. Its a lot like buying and selling cars. You find a nice dependable car you can buy off a nice older person for a two thousand you have no trouble reselling it and making a few grand on the transaction because there are a lot of buyers in that price range and limited supply of $4000 cars thanks to the cash for clunkers program a few years ago. But if you have a car you are trying to unload for $75,000, most people, myself included, are not buyers at that price. You have a much narrower market to sell to than you do trading in the lower priced items where many additional people can afford to buy.

We do like silver and we buy and sell a lot of it. Many times we have people come to us to sell their entire collection and many of them have a set price in mind, often many times less than the collection is worth. Those purchases are a no brainer. Who in their right mind would refuse to buy coins that are worth two or three times their market value. Then, believe it or not, there are lots of people that want to sell collections that are just two darn lazy to sort through the coins and make a list of what they have. In that case I offer just junk silver values. I am not going to sort or appraise you collection for you for free if you are too lazy to do it yourself, just so i can have the honor of paying you more for it. ::) . I had a fellow last year sell me just over 2000 mercury dimes and asked him to make a list of how many of each date and mint mark he had. He refused and said, just give me $1.25 each, which I did. I pulled 32 1921 mercury dimes out of that bag in various condition. Alone those 32 coins were worth more than I paid for the entire 2000 dimes.

But there are lots of other US coins that have a proven track record of increasing in value. Take the wheat penny for example. I generally give 2 to 3 cents a piece for them. That is a 200% to 300% return to the person selling them to me. But it gets better. I have seen lots of people selling them online and at auction and they are getting from 5 to 10 cents a piece for just the common date ones. Now you are looking at a rate of return from 500% to 1000% and they just seam to be inching up in value from year to year. I personally have over 70,000 horded. Get lucky and find a giant stash of unsearched wheat pennies and you can really hit the jackpot. It has happened to us many times and is one of our favorite coins to hord.

Another coin we like is the Buffalo Nickel. Again, it has a steady record of appreciation year to year. They are easy to find in bulk and will be part of just about any coin collection you buy from a private individual.

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Qweaver

We have been buying stocks for about 40 years.  Started mainly with C&P/GTE/VZ stock options which we just held and took dividends until the late 80s when I started actively trading.  My trading mode has always been to buy highly rated "blue chips" that pay a good dividend.  I hold those stocks until they have at least 2X the dividend and sell and try to rebuy at a much lower price or just hold until the X date, take the div. and start the whole process over again.  Other than a few buys that just went south with minor losses, I have always made very good profits this way.  This also had the added advantage of keeping a significant amount of our money in cash. 

We have almost all of our money in Trad. and Roth IRAs.  Every young couple should/MUST be investing the maximum allowed in a Roth IRA each year!
This is not the way to get the greatest return, but it is very safe and consistent.  Note that I made good money all the way thru this economic down turn.  High quality stocks and patience.
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

terry f

   As soon as the grandkids have earned income, match their earnings in a Roth IRA. A fourteen year old making $2000 a year at a summer job, having that invested in aggressive mutual funds to start, will thank Grandpa Woodhauler in forty years for their first million. I know that wasn't the question, so I say shiny silver. Go to the local coin store and buy what catches your eye.

Paul_H

Quote from: terry f on December 25, 2013, 01:02:51 PM
I know that wasn't the question, so I say shiny silver. Go to the local coin store and buy what catches your eye.

You're a very special boy
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Cedarman

I like land.  Land and my business is where I have stashed my money.  Land returns cash crop rent and hunting lease rent.  That which is not rented for crops grows trees.  Equipment purchased for business does depreciate, but makes us a real good return on investment.
I do like the idea of investing for the kids.  Even if invested in a bad stock and it falls by 1/2, you still have 1/2 of which you would have none if frittered away on "stuff".
Get them thinking about investing anyway.  If they have skin in the game, they will be so much better off in the future.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

snowstorm

buy stock in polaris. stay away from brp

SPIKER

Being an investor I been watching and following a lot of stuff, but admit GOLD is not one of them.  However the Miners I do follow as they basically dig money out of the ground, they just have to do it cheaper than they can sell the minerals for.   They been HURT a LOT but the price of Fuel in (most miners are in very remote areas) their costs to get it into the mine and then the cost to transport raw minerals to smelters/refiners.   While looking over some stocks I ran across an article that put the major GOLD miners against one another based on what it costs THEM to produce a oz of gold.

"Compared to Goldfields's $1348 all-in gold-equivalent costs; the other gold companies we've covered in so far in Q3FY13 have reported the following costs: Newmont Mining (NEM) (costs under $1200), Kinross Gold (KGC) (costs around $1200), Goldcorp (GG) (costs under $1200), Yamana Gold (AUY) (costs over $1150), Alamos Gold (AGI) (costs above $1250), Randgold (GOLD) (costs above $1150), Barrick Gold (ABX) (costs above $1350), Agnico-Eagle (AEM) (costs under $1150), Iamgold (IAG) (costs under $1150), and current quarterly cost leader Eldorado Gold (EGO) (costs just over $1100)."

the full article is here http://seekingalpha.com/article/1911791-what-it-really-costs-to-mine-gold-the-goldfields-third-quarter-edition?source=yahoo


So currently the low cost producers are the small guys with small management / equipment overhead.   From $1100 to $1400 almost to produce an ounce of gold...  RIGHT NOW gold is setting at $1210/oz...


Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

thechknhwk

That tells you that the market will not bear them to produce at the current price.  They will stop producing, the supply will dwindle, and the price will go back up, lol. ;D

SwampDonkey

The biggest consumer of gold is India. We have gold near here that was discovered a decade ago, and when gold shot to $1600/oz no mention of working that mine. Still idle.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Delawhere Jack

The Dow Jones has averaged 11% turnover/yr in the companies that make up the index over the last 50(?) years. That means that on average, 11% of the listed companies each year are losers and get de-listed, and new companies are listed to take their place. This can (and does) greatly skew what the index represents in real economic, and return on investments terms.

85% or more of trading on the major exchanges are conducted by computer programs. When a major risk event occurs, (wars, bank failures, major policy changes etc.) they are programmed to stop trading. You now have NO BID for your stock holdings...

Blue chips may be fairly safe, but generally, trading in stocks has become no place for the general public.


SPIKER

Quote from: Delawhere Jack on December 26, 2013, 03:52:12 PM
The Dow Jones has averaged 11% turnover/yr in the companies that make up the index over the last 50(?) years. That means that on average, 11% of the listed companies each year are losers and get de-listed, and new companies are listed to take their place. This can (and does) greatly skew what the index represents in real economic, and return on investments terms.

What you are talking about is not quite correct.   The indexes change their "weighting" (add more or less shares of the same stocks) regularly as the DOW, NASDAQ or S&P go UP some stocks go UP more and others go up LESS.   They change the weighting a few times per year. 

BUT actually taking ONE stock OUT and REPLACING it with some other STOCK does not happen all that often unless a particular stock/company (share price/count/trading stats) changes too far outside of the "Average" of the index.   This year was several stocks kicked out of the DOW and REPLACED the removed stocks with what they think are higher quality stocks, the other indexes did similar with different stocks.   That way they can replicate the "AVERAGE" for the index funds.   The DOW is 16,479 today, CAT has gone down in share value while BA Boeing has gone UP in value MORE so somewhere soon they may SELL some of the shares of BA Boeing and buy more CAT shares.  (or vise-versa depending on what they want to do.)


Quote from: Delawhere Jack on December 26, 2013, 03:52:12 PM


85% or more of trading on the major exchanges are conducted by computer programs. When a major risk event occurs, (wars, bank failures, major policy changes etc.) they are programmed to stop trading. You now have NO BID for your stock holdings...
Automated trading is hard on average investor but there now are computer trading algorithms that have been developed to bite the other computer trading algorithms  8) :D.   This is sort of what happened with the FLASH CRASH that happened 2 or 3 times now in last 4 years.   The SEC has kind of fixed this by making up circuit breakers that stops trading Selling or Buying if the % jumps more than 10% in less than a few seconds.   It works for individual stocks and for the market in general...   

Quote from: Delawhere Jack on December 26, 2013, 03:52:12 PM

Blue chips may be fairly safe, but generally, trading in stocks has become no place for the general public.

This is what EVERY BROKER wants people to believe it is actually quite easy and by taking a little bit of time watch some evening shows on CNBC to get some light knowledge it can be quite easy.   SOLD some stocks today, but over the last week I been BUYING stocks...   Anyone ever wants to talk stocks I'm game, in fact there are several people here that do actively trade stocks, I ahve both IRA and Savings Margin Accounts through SCOTTRADE, if you ever want to sign up you can do it online but let me know we (YOU AND I) can get free trades by saying I recommended ya.    Goes for anyone on the FORUM if you want to talk stocks and the market PM me maybe we can have a thread in the restricted topics or general forum (better.)

Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

routestep

Somewhat of an old topic

My two cents would be if you have the extra money and you already have land, house, no big bills to pay off then buy some gold coins.

You can get 1/10 oz coins and 1/4 oz coins. They cost more per oz then a full ounce coin of gold, but your initial cost can be pretty low. 

Buy one 1/10oz coin for each grandchild. Too bad the mint doesn't made smaller silver coins.

I bought some 1/4 oz coins a couple of years back. They're now down a bit, I don't follow it too closely. I bought then has an insurance just in case the economy/dollar goes down the tubes and we go into a great depression (GD). Grand dad lose his farm in the GD in part because he was over extended and under funded.   Family institutional memory.

A dollar bill is only worth what someone will give you for it.

LeeB

Just food for thought, when you buy gold, what do you pay for it with?
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

LeeB

Paying with a side of beef would raise it's value in my eyes, but the norm is cash. If it's such a great hedge, why do the sellers want cash?
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Sonofman

A gold or silver coin is only worth what someone will give you for it, also.
Located due west of Due West.

SwampDonkey

If a fellow was hungry he might want that beef instead of paper. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

LeeB

The gold wouldn't satisfy his appetite much either. My point exactly.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

SwampDonkey

Just a couple generations back, folks worked for store pay and barter in the depression. No one had any money. I never lived it, but won't soon forget it neither. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Brucer

In answer to the original question, 24 karat gold is "pure" gold. That's to say, it's as pure as you can reasonably get it without resorting to very expensive refining processes. Over 99.5%. The content of gold alloys is the karat value divided by 24.

Gold and silver have no intrinsic value. They are worth only what people will pay for them. If someone finds a huge deposit of very high grade gold that is easily extracted, the price of gold will fall. Ditto with silver. In the 1770's Adam Smith documented the dramatic fall in the price of silver. The price of silver had been determined by the availability from European sources. When huge finds were made in the Americas, the value plummeted.

I've done well on some blue chip stocks, and lost a bundle on others.

Buy land. They aren't making it anymore  ;D.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Paul_H

Geez Bruce,I was watching a show on volcanos the other night and it seems Hawaii is making new land 24/7  :)
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Ianab

Quote from: Paul_H on January 12, 2014, 12:40:22 AM
Geez Bruce,I was watching a show on volcanos the other night and it seems Hawaii is making new land 24/7  :)

Probably as good investment, once it stops smoking.... :D
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Cedarman

Rivers take land to the ocean, volcanoes make land, oceans rise and take it away. Mountains rise.  Constant change.
But I think Bruce is right.  Own land.  Used wisely it makes money and usually appreciates in value over time.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Sonofman

The only problem with buying land is that you can not. You think you are, but you are just renting it from the government. If you do not think so, just stop making the yearly rent payments (taxes) and see how long you keep 'your' land.
Located due west of Due West.

SPIKER

Quote from: Brucer on January 12, 2014, 12:37:17 AM
...
Gold and silver have no intrinsic value. They are worth only what people will pay for them. If someone finds a huge deposit of very high grade gold that is easily extracted, the price of gold will fall. Ditto with silver. In the 1770's Adam Smith documented the dramatic fall in the price of silver. The price of silver had been determined by the availability from European sources. When huge finds were made in the Americas, the value plummeted.

I've done well on some blue chip stocks, and lost a bundle on others.
...

That is true however Gold and Silver have "Industrial Uses" (NOT hocking either btw) as Gold and Silver both are inside every cell phone computer and home electronic device to some extent.

Bit of FYI at one point Aluminum was worth about what Platinum is worth today (in old world $ value.)   That is partly why the top of the Washington Monument is capped with a solid hunk of Aluminum (very top of it.) 8) 8)   Then they perfected extracting Aluminum from Bauxite and the value of it went nearly to 0.    There were times when family's invested in "Aluminum" silverware and plates as a sign of wealth.   ::)

One thing about Gold and Silver is the "liquidity" of it, who will buy it when prices are going down and who will sell when going up?   Stocks you can sell or buy in millisecond from any computer and from most hours if you have a good broker (8am thru 9pm for extended hour trades.)   Storing gold also can be an issue (bank vault or insured on home owner policy) it continues to cost you.   If you choose to keep it uninsured (home insurance requires riders for Gold) of any quantity even if made into Jewelery, coins etc...

Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

ancjr

Quote from: Sonofman on January 12, 2014, 03:51:13 PM
The only problem with buying land is that you can not. You think you are, but you are just renting it from the government. If you do not think so, just stop making the yearly rent payments (taxes) and see how long you keep 'your' land.

Here, here.  :)

Magicman

We are only the caretakers, and then only for a very short time.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

barbender

I never really worry about which investment is better -stocks, gold, land, etc. I usually manage to "invest" all of our money in groceries, gas, mortgage, insurance ::) I would like to start investing in property, and things I can have an active hand in managing.
Too many irons in the fire

LeeB

Barbender, that would be funny if it weren't so DanG true.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Larry

Just don't follow the investing advice of the Hunt brothers in the silver market. :D

Anybody remember that far back?

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Chuck White

Quote from: Magicman on January 12, 2014, 05:24:28 PM
We are only the caretakers, and then only for a very short time.

True!

Another way of thinking is:  The only land you'll ever own is the little parcel you're buried in!

For all the good it does you!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

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