iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

MS461 & .404 CHAIN

Started by joe_indi, December 16, 2013, 06:03:05 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

joe_indi

Somebody had posted on a thread that .404 chain would run on a  ported MS461.
Has anybody tried it?


webgal

What kind of wood are you cutting over there? You have me curious why you would need .404.
Gotta know when to fell em, know when to tell em, know when to walk away, know when to run....

Andyshine77

.404 is too much for a 461 ported or not IMHO. Keep in mind a 7 pin .404 sprocket is the same size as a 8 pin 3/8 sprocket. So not only are you running a bigger chain, you're also gearing the saw up as well. :)
Andre.

joe_indi

Quote from: webgal on December 16, 2013, 10:40:03 AM
What kind of wood are you cutting over there? You have me curious why you would need .404.
Rubber wood.Softwood when its standing.Hardwood after processing.
The bark has rubber latex/resin.
MS460 was the saw being used. Now its the MS461.
But we are seeing too many saws go down with crankshaft big end burn outs.
Though the same crankshafts are also running on the 460.
Chain is Full chisel Stihl RSC, Carlton A3 and Oregon 75LGX
Bar length is 18". People here are 5 to 5.5 feet tall so a bigger bar become unwieldy on the local terrain.
I think the cranks are failing from a low load condition, where over-revving occurs.(I know there is a speed limiter in the 461)
So, I was thinking whether a re-port and change to .404 chain would be a solution.

amberwood

if you are searching for a higher loaded condition maybe a more aggressively sharpened 3/8 chain would be a simple option?
DTR
MS460 Magnum
MS250
DAF CF85-430
ASV RC-85 track loader

sharkey

3/8 or .404, either should run on that size bar.

sharkey

Quote from: joe_indi on December 17, 2013, 03:03:10 AM
Quote from: webgal on December 16, 2013, 10:40:03 AM
What kind of wood are you cutting over there? You have me curious why you would need .404.
Rubber wood.Softwood when its standing.Hardwood after processing.
The bark has rubber latex/resin.
MS460 was the saw being used. Now its the MS461.
But we are seeing too many saws go down with crankshaft big end burn outs.
Though the same crankshafts are also running on the 460.
Chain is Full chisel Stihl RSC, Carlton A3 and Oregon 75LGX
Bar length is 18". People here are 5 to 5.5 feet tall so a bigger bar become unwieldy on the local terrain.
I think the cranks are failing from a low load condition, where over-revving occurs.(I know there is a speed limiter in the 461)
So, I was thinking whether a re-port and change to .404 chain would be a solution.

Hi Joe,
Interesting.  There is a full recall going on in Germany concerning the newly released 661 which is quite similar to the 461 from what Ive seen.  Stihl has suspended 661 sales in North America citing a backlog of 660 units in inventory.  Stihl is not saying anything publicly about the recall in Germany.  Your just supposed to take your saw in and pick up your check. 

Some of the techs have indicated its a cylinder plating problem.  Im thinking you found the problem with the failing cranks.

     

Andyshine77

In that case running.404 would likely causes more issues IMHO. Are you running the saws wide open without much load? It sounds like that's what you were trying to say. If so switching to smaller saws should be considered. I'm not in your country so I have to ask. What type of fuel and oil are you using?

Without knowing the whole situation, my best and honest advice is to tune the saws rich, this will keep the rpm's down. I'd also make sure and keep the air filters very clean. Running more oil, say 32:1 or 40:1 will also help out the bottom end.
Andre.

AdkStihl

My 1963 STIHL 08 (non super) runs .404, always has since the day it left the assembly line.................. Just sayin.

Like Andy says, Run 32:1 and I think your bearing issues will diminish.  ;)
J.Miller Photography

joe_indi

@AdkStihl: Saws run here on 25:1 fuel. Its not that not enough lubrication.

@Andyshine77: Yep, the saws are running wide open without enough load.That was why I thought the 404 chain would help.That chain is heavy as it is without even going into the wood.So wide open, the rpms dont go up too much.

@sharkey: They have finally taken notice of the crankshaft failure here and 461s are re-enforced cranks are under trial over here right now, though I have not been fortunate to see one of those saws.

@amberwood: Most of the users have their rakers filed low already.So a more aggressive chain may not be the answer.

I dont have any cylinder porting expertise. And there is nobody here who knows how to do it.
Maybe somebody could advice me on doing the basics (on the ports)
I have dual port mufflers in stock.
Should I try advancing the exhaust port by shaving off the upper edge?
And do the same on the inlet by shaving off the lower edge.
Both by a millimeter at a time?





AdkStihl

Quote from: joe_indi on December 17, 2013, 08:59:29 AM
@AdkStihl: Saws run here on 25:1 fuel. Its not that not enough lubrication.

Why 25:1? (edit)

QuoteI dont have any cylinder porting expertise. And there is nobody here who knows how to do it.

Contact TLandrum (Terry)
But I would assume that by porting the 461 and increasing performance, you would also be increasing load on the bottom ends.
J.Miller Photography

joe_indi

Quote from: AdkStihl on December 17, 2013, 10:59:00 AM


Why 25:1? (edit)

50:1 for Stihl 2 stroke oil. 25:1 for other 2 stroke oils.
90% of the saws run on the locally manufactured 'other' 2 stroke oils.Our ambient temperature is higher, our fuel bounces between E5 and E25 (depending on the blending of the refineries)
Adulteration of fuel is rampant, which drives the RON crazy.So the least that one can do as a safeguard is to increase the mix ratio to 1:25.


Quote from: AdkStihl on December 17, 2013, 10:59:00 AMBut I would assume that by porting the 461 and increasing performance, you would also be increasing load on the bottom ends.
The porting I am thinking of is for better mid range torque, which would reduce the top end high revs, so that a 404 chain could run on the saw.
Am I correct in this assumption? Or is the result of porting only  a high performance engine?




AdkStihl

Quote from: joe_indi on December 17, 2013, 12:33:29 PM
Or is the result of porting only  a high performance engine?

Never heard of porting a saw to de-tune it? But I guess it sure is possible and in your case a desirable side effect.
Although.... by porting the saw, you are allowing it to expel hot exhaust gasses a little faster and in your region I'm sure heat is a saw killer.
Due to the fact that your fuel is unstable in terms of ethanol content, if you do end up having some saws ported, I would make sure that compression isn't increased.

Have you considered running VP fuels or any other "canned" fuels? On one hand it may not be economical....but on the other hand...!!
J.Miller Photography

joe_indi

AdkStihl,
Yes, that is the word, de-tune.
That is what I am trying to do on the 461.
The 460 I used to 'de-tune' by changing to a 0.8mm lo compression cylinder gasket, 0.74 fixed jet, the valve jet from the old HD8A carb (1128 121 5403) and filing the slots on the ignition module to retard the ignition timing.



AdkStihl

Quote from: joe_indi on December 17, 2013, 02:29:32 PM
filing the slots on the ignition module to retard the ignition timing.

Why not file the key instead? Much cheaper alternative.
They say 1/2 key width is approx. 5-6*
J.Miller Photography

Andyshine77

Running the depth gauges low can cause excessive vibration, which can kill the bottom end pretty quick IMHO. This is also the reason I'd stay away from .404 chain, as this would cause the chain to be a bit grabby on a smaller bars.

It's really starting to sound like bad fuel is to blame. If the batches are that inconsistent and the workers don't re tune the carbs regularly, I could see this happening. The best thing to do, is lower the rpm's by tuning them rich. It's sounds like you've already done so with other saws.

Best of luck.     
Andre.

HolmenTree

Joe how many of these saws are blowing their cranks ,more with 25:1 or 50:1?
I think the 50:1 even with full synthetic Stihl Ultra may be the problem. 50:l which is eco effective in Germany may not be so endurance effective in India.
All my saws I run 40:1 with Stihl Ultra.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

5000+

Why not make it easy and use a more appropriate saw for the job? Retarded timing will cause hotter engine temps.  I wonder how good your local oil really is?  Use a under rated saw, for example Husqvarna 353 vs a 346xp.

joe_indi

Quote from: 5000+ on December 17, 2013, 06:42:03 PM
Why not make it easy and use a more appropriate saw for the job? Retarded timing will cause hotter engine temps.  I wonder how good your local oil really is?  Use a under rated saw, for example Husqvarna 353 vs a 346xp.
It might be hard to believe, the  046/MS460 has become the benchmark here.So a more appropriate saw is just not acceptable.The local oil is good. I have tried it at 50:1.It works fine.

@HolmenTree:
Its happening to both ie 25:1 amd 50:1.But more of the latter.

@AdkStihl
Filing the key gives you timing retard or advance without the convenience of adjustment. But filing the slots in the ignition module allows easy adjustments of the timing.

I have gone ahead and done it.
One MS461 is going to the field tomorrow with a dual port muffler.
I have fitted it with a 16" solid nose Duromatic bar and a .404 rim sprocket.
And, a .404 saw chain.
I have taken out the limiter caps on the carb and tune the saw in the cut.
I have done some mods on the piston and I have removed the wash bridge.
This evening I tried a couple of cuts.The saw seemed to be fine with the 404 chain.Much better than a 460 with a 404 chain.
I will get the feedback tomorrow.



Andyshine77

Quote from: joe_indi on December 18, 2013, 12:22:00 PM
Quote from: 5000+ on December 17, 2013, 06:42:03 PM
Why not make it easy and use a more appropriate saw for the job? Retarded timing will cause hotter engine temps.  I wonder how good your local oil really is?  Use a under rated saw, for example Husqvarna 353 vs a 346xp.
It might be hard to believe, the  046/MS460 has become the benchmark here.So a more appropriate saw is just not acceptable.The local oil is good. I have tried it at 50:1.It works fine.

@HolmenTree:
Its happening to both ie 25:1 amd 50:1.But more of the latter.

If you're blowing up saws with the 50:1 mix then I'd say it's not working fine. I would ask myself, if the fuel is inconsistent locally, is the oil any better? .404 a 16" hard nose bar is unique for sure. Nevertheless I hope this works out for you, the 461 is a nice strong saw.   
Andre.

joe_indi

Andyshine77, I used the local on at 50:1 only to see whether 2% oil would suffice as when using Stihl oil.
This was in a MS 460. It ran fine, no issues at all.But 4% is safer here because of the fuel inconsistency.
Many saws are running with 3% oil. And many use Stihl oil at 3%, just to be safe, though it costs double the price of local oil.
BTW when I say local oil, its not oil churned out by some shady operators.There is Castrol, Shell, Elf,Mobil, Idemitsu and also ones from the state owned oil companies.All of them are genuine stuff.
I used the 16" Duromatic bar (with a bit of decent slack) for 2 reasons.
#. Being short, the running load would be at a minimum.
#. That bar has been with me for more than 15 years and chains run so smoothly, and it does not cost me in case the experiment is not successful.
If this setup works I have a new 20" 404  Rollomatic bar that would use next.
To ensure good lube for the heavier chain I am using my own 'brew' that I found to work the best in our conditions
1 litre palm oil
100 ml SAE 340 gear oil
100ml coconut oil
50ml kerosene or diesel

Palm oil is cheap and is readily available as a medium for cooking.
The gear oil gives it very good sticking and anti-fling properties
Coconut oil keeps the resin build up on the chain and bar at a low scale.
(When cutting rubber there is plenty of resin)
The kerosene/diesel helps to act as an emulsifier and clearing agent for the mix. It also prevents the mix from becoming thicker during night temperatures.

5000+

"Benchmark" or not, it seems like you are using the wrong saw for the job.  You are using a expensive high powered saw and "detuning it, while at the same time using a dual port muffler. All of this makes little sense. 

Andyshine77

Well I like Indian food quite a lot, and I know some of it has coconut oil/milk in it, but I'm not sure I'd use it in my bar oil.

Look when you start using inappropriate attachments, tuning and so on, you're going to have issues, like you've already had. Myself and other have given you suggestions and advice, if you're not interested in changing something that's obviously not working, why ask for our opinions and advice? We are all more than willing to try our best to help you in any way we can, but you must also be willing to listen and possibly adapt. .404 chain is not going to change much if anything, other than cutting slower. A 16" bar and chain is 50cc saw territory if not 40cc. You could save more money and work more efficiently with a smaller, lighter, cheaper and more appropriate saw.

Again, best of luck.

Andre.       
Andre.

joe_indi

Quote from: 5000+ on December 18, 2013, 11:06:25 PM
"Benchmark" or not, it seems like you are using the wrong saw for the job.  You are using a expensive high powered saw and "detuning it, while at the same time using a dual port muffler. All of this makes little sense. 
I agree with you 100% , but, users here want nothing less. We have the MS381, 361, 362, 290, 390, but none of them are acceptable for the cutting of rubber trees, but the MS460. And by default the MS461.
The 046 became the 'benchmark' here in 1998 and now after 15 years its difficult to change. The dual port is being used here for reducing back pressure so that the rpm does not climb beyond a limit.
I understand it may not make sense but my aim is to save  crankshaft big end bearing burnout because the saws are running without required load.
______________
Andre, I am so sorry that you feel that way. This is the only chainsaw forum that I visit regularly because IMHO there is collectively a lot of experience on all aspects of chainsaws on this forum.Conventional and non-conventional.
It was the latter I was hoping to get some inputs from for my current query.
After I went through the responses I did adapt some suggestions though I am yet to take up  AdkStihl on his suggestion that I contact TLandrum regarding cylinder porting.
If I wanted only to do all things conventionally, I would not be here at all, nor many others here on the forum.
However, I beg to differ with you when you say 16" bar and chain is in the territory of 40cc and 50cc saws.
The 16" Stihl Duromatic guidebar (3003 000 9217) that I am using  is also intended for MS 460 and MS461, even for the MS660. It has a solid bar nose, therefore  it can run chains both of 3/8 pitch and .404 pitch.
With regard to the oils I (we) use . Bio oils promoted by Husky and Stihl use  conveniently  and economically vailable vegetable based oils such as rape seed oil. The conveniently  and economically vailable bio friendly oil in my country is coconut oil and palm oil. they are not the same. The former is from a coconut palm and the latter is from an oil palm. They are cheap, locally available and eco friendly.
99% of the saws run on palm oil alone.This tends to ruin the oil pump, the chain and the guidebar and bar nose.
But when no one really minds because palm oil costs  $.1.00 for a liter compared to SAE 20-40 for $.6.00 or  Stihl Bio Plus about $.12.00 .
When  average chain oil requirement for a saw  here is about 3 liters it works out to a saving of $.30.00 for a user.When you convert that into the local currency that $.30 works out to around Rs. 1950.00.The hire charges per day for a saw with the operator's wages is Rs.3000.00.
I think that explains why coconut oil and palm oil is used here.

Once more, my apologies and thank you for your suggestions
Joe

5000+

I guess you'll have to keep some new crankshafts, bearings, gasket/seals, oil pumps in stock,  you will need them.

Thank You Sponsors!