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Author Topic: MS461 & .404 CHAIN  (Read 1971 times)

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Offline joe_indi

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MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« on: December 16, 2013, 06:03:05 am »
Somebody had posted on a thread that .404 chain would run on a  ported MS461.
Has anybody tried it?


Offline webgal

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2013, 10:40:03 am »
What kind of wood are you cutting over there? You have me curious why you would need .404.
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Offline Andyshine77

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2013, 04:46:02 pm »
.404 is too much for a 461 ported or not IMHO. Keep in mind a 7 pin .404 sprocket is the same size as a 8 pin 3/8 sprocket. So not only are you running a bigger chain, you're also gearing the saw up as well. :)
Andre.

Offline joe_indi

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2013, 03:03:10 am »
What kind of wood are you cutting over there? You have me curious why you would need .404.
Rubber wood.Softwood when its standing.Hardwood after processing.
The bark has rubber latex/resin.
MS460 was the saw being used. Now its the MS461.
But we are seeing too many saws go down with crankshaft big end burn outs.
Though the same crankshafts are also running on the 460.
Chain is Full chisel Stihl RSC, Carlton A3 and Oregon 75LGX
Bar length is 18". People here are 5 to 5.5 feet tall so a bigger bar become unwieldy on the local terrain.
I think the cranks are failing from a low load condition, where over-revving occurs.(I know there is a speed limiter in the 461)
So, I was thinking whether a re-port and change to .404 chain would be a solution.

Offline amberwood

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 03:25:03 am »
if you are searching for a higher loaded condition maybe a more aggressively sharpened 3/8 chain would be a simple option?
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Offline sharkey

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2013, 03:28:58 am »
3/8 or .404, either should run on that size bar.

Offline sharkey

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2013, 03:32:37 am »
What kind of wood are you cutting over there? You have me curious why you would need .404.
Rubber wood.Softwood when its standing.Hardwood after processing.
The bark has rubber latex/resin.
MS460 was the saw being used. Now its the MS461.
But we are seeing too many saws go down with crankshaft big end burn outs.
Though the same crankshafts are also running on the 460.
Chain is Full chisel Stihl RSC, Carlton A3 and Oregon 75LGX
Bar length is 18". People here are 5 to 5.5 feet tall so a bigger bar become unwieldy on the local terrain.
I think the cranks are failing from a low load condition, where over-revving occurs.(I know there is a speed limiter in the 461)
So, I was thinking whether a re-port and change to .404 chain would be a solution.

Hi Joe,
Interesting.  There is a full recall going on in Germany concerning the newly released 661 which is quite similar to the 461 from what Ive seen.  Stihl has suspended 661 sales in North America citing a backlog of 660 units in inventory.  Stihl is not saying anything publicly about the recall in Germany.  Your just supposed to take your saw in and pick up your check. 

Some of the techs have indicated its a cylinder plating problem.  Im thinking you found the problem with the failing cranks.

     

Offline Andyshine77

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2013, 03:35:46 am »
In that case running.404 would likely causes more issues IMHO. Are you running the saws wide open without much load? It sounds like that's what you were trying to say. If so switching to smaller saws should be considered. I'm not in your country so I have to ask. What type of fuel and oil are you using?

Without knowing the whole situation, my best and honest advice is to tune the saws rich, this will keep the rpm's down. I'd also make sure and keep the air filters very clean. Running more oil, say 32:1 or 40:1 will also help out the bottom end.
Andre.

Offline AdkStihl

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2013, 08:08:36 am »
My 1963 STIHL 08 (non super) runs .404, always has since the day it left the assembly line.................. Just sayin.

Like Andy says, Run 32:1 and I think your bearing issues will diminish.  ;)
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Offline joe_indi

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 08:59:29 am »
@AdkStihl: Saws run here on 25:1 fuel. Its not that not enough lubrication.

@Andyshine77: Yep, the saws are running wide open without enough load.That was why I thought the 404 chain would help.That chain is heavy as it is without even going into the wood.So wide open, the rpms dont go up too much.

@sharkey: They have finally taken notice of the crankshaft failure here and 461s are re-enforced cranks are under trial over here right now, though I have not been fortunate to see one of those saws.

@amberwood: Most of the users have their rakers filed low already.So a more aggressive chain may not be the answer.

I dont have any cylinder porting expertise. And there is nobody here who knows how to do it.
Maybe somebody could advice me on doing the basics (on the ports)
I have dual port mufflers in stock.
Should I try advancing the exhaust port by shaving off the upper edge?
And do the same on the inlet by shaving off the lower edge.
Both by a millimeter at a time?


 


Offline AdkStihl

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2013, 10:59:00 am »
@AdkStihl: Saws run here on 25:1 fuel. Its not that not enough lubrication.

Why 25:1? (edit)

Quote
I dont have any cylinder porting expertise. And there is nobody here who knows how to do it.

Contact TLandrum (Terry)
But I would assume that by porting the 461 and increasing performance, you would also be increasing load on the bottom ends.
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Offline joe_indi

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2013, 12:33:29 pm »


Why 25:1? (edit)

50:1 for Stihl 2 stroke oil. 25:1 for other 2 stroke oils.
90% of the saws run on the locally manufactured 'other' 2 stroke oils.Our ambient temperature is higher, our fuel bounces between E5 and E25 (depending on the blending of the refineries)
Adulteration of fuel is rampant, which drives the RON crazy.So the least that one can do as a safeguard is to increase the mix ratio to 1:25.


But I would assume that by porting the 461 and increasing performance, you would also be increasing load on the bottom ends.
The porting I am thinking of is for better mid range torque, which would reduce the top end high revs, so that a 404 chain could run on the saw.
Am I correct in this assumption? Or is the result of porting only  a high performance engine?




Offline AdkStihl

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2013, 01:12:32 pm »
Or is the result of porting only  a high performance engine?

Never heard of porting a saw to de-tune it? But I guess it sure is possible and in your case a desirable side effect.
Although.... by porting the saw, you are allowing it to expel hot exhaust gasses a little faster and in your region I'm sure heat is a saw killer.
Due to the fact that your fuel is unstable in terms of ethanol content, if you do end up having some saws ported, I would make sure that compression isn't increased.

Have you considered running VP fuels or any other "canned" fuels? On one hand it may not be economical....but on the other hand...!!
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Offline joe_indi

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2013, 02:29:32 pm »
AdkStihl,
Yes, that is the word, de-tune.
That is what I am trying to do on the 461.
The 460 I used to 'de-tune' by changing to a 0.8mm lo compression cylinder gasket, 0.74 fixed jet, the valve jet from the old HD8A carb (1128 121 5403) and filing the slots on the ignition module to retard the ignition timing.



Offline AdkStihl

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2013, 03:18:10 pm »
filing the slots on the ignition module to retard the ignition timing.

Why not file the key instead? Much cheaper alternative.
They say 1/2 key width is approx. 5-6*
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Offline Andyshine77

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2013, 04:27:17 pm »
Running the depth gauges low can cause excessive vibration, which can kill the bottom end pretty quick IMHO. This is also the reason I'd stay away from .404 chain, as this would cause the chain to be a bit grabby on a smaller bars.

It's really starting to sound like bad fuel is to blame. If the batches are that inconsistent and the workers don't re tune the carbs regularly, I could see this happening. The best thing to do, is lower the rpm's by tuning them rich. It's sounds like you've already done so with other saws.

Best of luck.     
Andre.

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2013, 05:10:20 pm »
Joe how many of these saws are blowing their cranks ,more with 25:1 or 50:1?
I think the 50:1 even with full synthetic Stihl Ultra may be the problem. 50:l which is eco effective in Germany may not be so endurance effective in India.
All my saws I run 40:1 with Stihl Ultra.

Offline 5000+

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2013, 06:42:03 pm »
Why not make it easy and use a more appropriate saw for the job? Retarded timing will cause hotter engine temps.  I wonder how good your local oil really is?  Use a under rated saw, for example Husqvarna 353 vs a 346xp.

Offline joe_indi

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2013, 12:22:00 pm »
Why not make it easy and use a more appropriate saw for the job? Retarded timing will cause hotter engine temps.  I wonder how good your local oil really is?  Use a under rated saw, for example Husqvarna 353 vs a 346xp.
It might be hard to believe, the  046/MS460 has become the benchmark here.So a more appropriate saw is just not acceptable.The local oil is good. I have tried it at 50:1.It works fine.

@HolmenTree:
Its happening to both ie 25:1 amd 50:1.But more of the latter.

@AdkStihl
Filing the key gives you timing retard or advance without the convenience of adjustment. But filing the slots in the ignition module allows easy adjustments of the timing.

I have gone ahead and done it.
One MS461 is going to the field tomorrow with a dual port muffler.
I have fitted it with a 16" solid nose Duromatic bar and a .404 rim sprocket.
And, a .404 saw chain.
I have taken out the limiter caps on the carb and tune the saw in the cut.
I have done some mods on the piston and I have removed the wash bridge.
This evening I tried a couple of cuts.The saw seemed to be fine with the 404 chain.Much better than a 460 with a 404 chain.
I will get the feedback tomorrow.



Offline Andyshine77

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Re: MS461 & .404 CHAIN
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2013, 05:02:22 pm »
Why not make it easy and use a more appropriate saw for the job? Retarded timing will cause hotter engine temps.  I wonder how good your local oil really is?  Use a under rated saw, for example Husqvarna 353 vs a 346xp.
It might be hard to believe, the  046/MS460 has become the benchmark here.So a more appropriate saw is just not acceptable.The local oil is good. I have tried it at 50:1.It works fine.

@HolmenTree:
Its happening to both ie 25:1 amd 50:1.But more of the latter.

If you're blowing up saws with the 50:1 mix then I'd say it's not working fine. I would ask myself, if the fuel is inconsistent locally, is the oil any better? .404 a 16" hard nose bar is unique for sure. Nevertheless I hope this works out for you, the 461 is a nice strong saw.   
Andre.