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Narrow Kerf Chain

Started by Rob5073, December 11, 2013, 08:19:52 AM

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webgal

Low profiles (aka piccos) tend to run spurs from what I've seen. Cool that Stihl offers a rim system for picco. The oregon spline shown is for full 3/8 size pitch chain. You'd run that  on a 372 husky.

Gotta know when to fell em, know when to tell em, know when to walk away, know when to run....

SawTroll

Quote from: HolmenTree on December 11, 2013, 05:08:52 PM


  Here's a pic of the differences between a Stihl Picco 8 tooth mini 7 spline bore  rim sprocket and a Oregon 8 tooth standard 7 spline rim.
Notice the Picco is slightly larger in diameter even though they both are 3/8 -8T sprockets.

It surely is, and it needs to be to compensate for the lower chassis on the Picco/lo-pro chain - as the pitch (at the rivets) is the same .366 on both (no, it isn't .375, so calling 3/8" chain .375 simply is wrong).
Information collector.

HolmenTree

All good info SawTroll 8)
If anyone needs the part# for that Picco rim here it is
BTW its been ages since I bought this rim but they may have other tooth counts. I remember this mini  7spline bore fits a Stihl 024-026.


 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

SawTroll

Quote from: HolmenTree on December 11, 2013, 08:39:49 PM
All good info SawTroll 8)
If anyone needs the part# for that Picco rim here it is
BTW its been ages since I bought this rim but they may have other tooth counts. I remember this mini  7spline bore fits a Stihl 024-026.


 

I believe there is a 7-pin variant as well, but 6-pin likely isn't possible even for the Stihl mini 7-spline.
Information collector.

HolmenTree

Quote from: SawTroll on December 11, 2013, 08:54:49 PM
Quote from: HolmenTree on December 11, 2013, 08:39:49 PM
All good info SawTroll 8)
If anyone needs the part# for that Picco rim here it is
BTW its been ages since I bought this rim but they may have other tooth counts. I remember this mini  7spline bore fits a Stihl 024-026.


 

I believe there is a 7-pin variant as well, but 6-pin likely isn't possible even for the Stihl mini 7-spline.
Thanks Niko, I was going to suggest to the OP of this thread Rob 5073, that he may be wise to run the new Stihl 63PS chisel chain that I showed earlier on both his saws.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

SawTroll

Quote from: webgal on December 11, 2013, 06:01:28 PM
Low profiles (aka piccos) tend to run spurs from what I've seen. Cool that Stihl offers a rim system for picco. The oregon spline shown is for full 3/8 size pitch chain. You'd run that  on a 372 husky.

All that is correct.

The top handle saws etc in 3/8" Picco/lo-pro usually use a 6-pin sprocket, and that likely isn't possible to make even for the Stihl mini 7-spline drums.

.325x7 isn't much larger, but that is possible even for the regular small 7-spline (as the number of slots for drivers is the same as the number of splines).
That setup comes standard on the 339xp, and I assume that is what Holmentree have used on his 338xpt (basically the same saw, but top handle vs. rear handle).... :)
Information collector.

Rob5073

HolmanTree,  what would be the benefits of running the Stihl chain? Would I have to change anything or can I use the chain with the stock setups?

SawTroll

Quote from: Rob5073 on December 11, 2013, 10:19:13 PM
HolmanTree,  what would be the benefits of running the Stihl chain? Would I have to change anything or can I use the chain with the stock setups?
If the saw is set up for 3/8" lo-pro, the advantage would be that Stihl make a (full) chisel chain for that setup (63PS - forget 63PS3, as it is "green" chain), and Oregon doesn't (so far).

If your wood is somewhat "dirty", and you need semi chisel, there are no advantage to run Stihl chain, Oregon 91VX and /or VXL likely is the best semi chisel options (i have no personal experience though, this is based on what people I trust have posted in the past).
Information collector.

ladylake

 I really like the 91 vx semi chiesel, stays sharp a long time and cuts great.. You want to use a 6 tooth on 45cc and less as a 7 tooth 3/8 lp cuts about the same as a .325 7 tooth, tried that and the 3/8 lp 6 tooth cuts the fastest by quite a bit.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

HolmenTree

Quote from: Rob5073 on December 11, 2013, 10:19:13 PM
HolmanTree,  what would be the benefits of running the Stihl chain? Would I have to change anything or can I use the chain with the stock setups?
Rob, I was just saying you could run the same chain on both saws to keep things simple and still get good or better performance then what you already have.
You'd have to convert your 545 over to 3/8 which is already an option. The 91 VXL 3/8 Low-Profile or Stihl Picco chain will work fine on the standard 3/8 converted 545 for what  little cutting you say you do, it's not perfect but then most chain is not perfect as their pitch changes all the time with wear and tear anyways.
Here's a video comparing a chisel .325 chain to the Picco 63PS chisel chain. The little chisel Picco looks very impressive, if it wasn't -30 below outside I would test mine :D

http://youtu.be/WYG1P3P-lBY
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Rob5073

I see now what you mean.  Thanks for posting the video.  I never realized there were different options and modifications one could make on a saw even if something as simple as the chain/sprocket.  I'll research it further.

SawTroll

Running 3/8" Picco on a regular 3/8" sprocket will be about as using a sprocket that is wore well beyond it useful life.. ;)

Don't do it, unless in a pinch.....
Information collector.

webgal

Gotta know when to fell em, know when to tell em, know when to walk away, know when to run....

HolmenTree

Quote from: SawTroll on December 12, 2013, 05:18:13 PM
Running 3/8" Picco on a regular 3/8" sprocket will be about as using a sprocket that is wore well beyond it useful life.. ;)

Don't do it, unless in a pinch.....
Niko, it must be tough being a armchair coach :D
I put the new Picco 63PS to the test today on my Husqvarna 550XP with a 14" bar in 3/8 LoPro tip from my 338XPT and put a small 7 spline 3/8" 7Tooth Oregon rim on it.
I cut about a dozen cuts through a 10"X10" spruce and the chain cut like crazy ,way faster then the .325 that I had on the 550 and the Picco chain rolled along the bar and 2 sprockets like butter with no side effects.
Seeing the OP ROB 5073 has the sister saw the 545 this setup would work fine like I said earlier. I suggest he get the 16" bar or 18" in the 3/8 LoPro if he can find it.
I remember years ago I ran Picco on my Stihl 066 with no problems miiling lumber and it worked even better with the Picco 7 T standard spline spur drum #1122 640 200 with all the extra power the 066 put out.
But for the power of a 545 or 550XP the standard 3/8 small spline rim sprocket is all that is needed, just make sure to have the 3/8 LoPro nosed bar to back it up.
Here's some pics I took today of the 550 with the Stihl Picco 63PS , other photos of the Picco wrapped around several standard 3/8 rim sprockets including a 13 Tooth 3/8 standard .
Last 2 pics are what doesn't work: a standard 3/8 chain wrapped around and not meshing with a Picco 3/8 rim sprocket ,
And lastly from some misguided advice from Grandedog [Greg] he said run Picco chain on a 8 Tooth .404 rim sprocket , as my pic shows it sure doesn't mesh there. :D


  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

HolmenTree

Quote from: webgal on December 12, 2013, 06:02:28 PM
Ditto  :D
Well webgal, did you learn anything from my last post to Niko ;)
I know your not a official Stihl dealer at Bailey's , but what LoPro sprockets setup do you sell for your LogoSol mills for Stihl 660's etc.?
I know LogO Sol supplied Picco sprocket drums for the big saws , do you still supply them?
I understand you have to be neutral on the Stihl sawchain sales issue I  referred to in previous threads. 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

webgal

The Stihl sprocket in question for running the low profile (aka picco)  chain on a 660 Stihl for milling purposes would be the Stihl part number. 1122 640 2006.

Frankly, I'd be really surprised if Gregg suggested putting 3/8 on a .404 sprocket. Technically low profile is .365 as someone here pointed out.

Rob was asking about narrow kerf benefits. Turns out he mentioned he was happy with his set up and he is even running a narrow kerf set up on his stock saw.

You mentioned swapping the sprocket around like you did, was based on 40 years of sawing and loads of experience. I'm a "by-the-book" gal for sure and encourage Rob to weigh his options. I've a serious respect for timberfallers and chainsaws. I'll let you guys suss this one out for yourselves. I certainly don't have 40  years of sawing experience, but I have listened to tales from a wide range of long timer operators.
Gotta know when to fell em, know when to tell em, know when to walk away, know when to run....

HolmenTree

Quote from: webgal on December 13, 2013, 04:33:15 PM
The Stihl sprocket in question for running the low profile (aka picco)  chain on a 660 Stihl for milling purposes would be the Stihl part number. 1122 640 2006.

Frankly, I'd be really surprised if Gregg suggested putting 3/8 on a .404 sprocket. Technically low profile is .365 as someone here pointed out.

Rob was asking about narrow kerf benefits. Turns out he mentioned he was happy with his set up and he is even running a narrow kerf set up on his stock saw.

You mentioned swapping the sprocket around like you did, was based on 40 years of sawing and loads of experience. I'm a "by-the-book" gal for sure and encourage Rob to weigh his options. I've a serious respect for timberfallers and chainsaws. I'll let you guys suss this one out for yourselves. I certainly don't have 40  years of sawing experience, but I have listened to tales from a wide range of long timer operators.
Yes that part number you gave must be the new updated #, so you must still sell them. So what do you sell at Baileys in LoPro for your LogO Sol mills?

Speaking of "by the book" not everything you hear from some arm chair coaches are worth any thing. Read my last post to Gregg  aka Grandedog in the "milling chain 394XP" thread.
If Rob tries out the Stihl 63PS Picco on his 545 the exact way I did as I explained in the previous post with my 550XP and it doesn't work out for him , then I'll buy him a new b/c. He sends me the b/c , I'll pay his shipping and I'll send him a new .325 NK b/c.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

webgal

Actually for milling with the Logosol units the 63PMX Stihl picco ripping chain is the way to go. We used to have our 30LR made by Carlton, but since then Oregon bought them out and Stihl are the only ones (that I know of) that are steadily producing that specialized chain.

My early days of being big ears for all the tales told, one guy told me how he had done a rebuild and didn't put the cover on to test it out and it sucked his shirt in and ripped it off his back and only left the collar rings and the sleeve rings of his cotton T. Yep, I believed him...  :'(
Gotta know when to fell em, know when to tell em, know when to walk away, know when to run....

Philbert

HolmenTree,

My understanding, based on cut-away photos, is that the Picco/low profile chain will fit into a standard 3/8" sprocket (the 'pitch' / rivet spacing is the same), but that the shallower profile of the Picco drive link does not mesh with the sprocket the way that full sized 3/8 drive links do.

This leads to the sloppier fit that SawTroll referenced, especially with wear.

Does this conflict with any of your findings?

Philbert

HolmenTree

Quote from: webgal on December 13, 2013, 05:19:15 PM
Actually for milling with the Logosol units the 63PMX Stihl picco ripping chain is the way to go. We used to have our 30LR made by Carlton, but since then Oregon bought them out and Stihl are the only ones (that I know of) that are steadily producing that specialized chain.

My early days of being big ears for all the tales told, one guy told me how he had done a rebuild and didn't put the cover on to test it out and it sucked his shirt in and ripped it off his back and only left the collar rings and the sleeve rings of his cotton T. Yep, I believed him...  :'(

I think your the only one telling tales here webgal :D
So, you haven't answered my question what 3/8" LoPro drive sprockets and bars do you stock for your LogOSol  units?
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

SawTroll

Quote from: webgal on December 13, 2013, 04:33:15 PM
......

Frankly, I'd be really surprised if Gregg suggested putting 3/8 on a .404 sprocket. Technically low profile is .365 as someone here pointed out.

.....

The pitch of both regular 3/8" and Picco/low profile is about .366.

There actually is no .375 chain out there, even though that number often is used in marketing of 3/8" chain...... :(
Information collector.

SawTroll

Quote from: Philbert on December 13, 2013, 06:27:11 PM
HolmenTree,

My understanding, based on cut-away photos, is that the Picco/low profile chain will fit into a standard 3/8" sprocket (the 'pitch' / rivet spacing is the same), but that the shallower profile of the Picco drive link does not mesh with the sprocket the way that full sized 3/8 drive links do.

This leads to the sloppier fit that SawTroll referenced, especially with wear.

Does this conflict with any of your findings?

Philbert


True!  :)
Information collector.

HolmenTree

Quote from: Philbert on December 13, 2013, 06:27:11 PM
HolmenTree,

My understanding, based on cut-away photos, is that the Picco/low profile chain will fit into a standard 3/8" sprocket (the 'pitch' / rivet spacing is the same), but that the shallower profile of the Picco drive link does not mesh with the sprocket the way that full sized 3/8 drive links do.

This leads to the sloppier fit that SawTroll referenced, especially with wear.


Does this conflict with any of your findings?

Philbert
Philbert, yes the match isn't perfect but then look how pitch goes out the window when a sprocket has worn and a new chain is put on it.
I think only Oregon has the claim to fame of producing a "true even pitch" chain  with their .404 (can't think of the model#off the top of my head) So "out of pitch chain" is almost normal in this industry.
Over the years I have carved with a Picco chain on a 044, milled with it on a 066 and a 395XP. With all that strenuous cutting with such a small cutter size filing life was not great, but it did the job very well for its short life for what I used it for. Only the little .043 Picco I had a problem with peening and tightening up of the links with the bigger saws .

I was just suggesting to the OP to give the Picco 63PS a try seeing his other saw is running LoPro, for the ammount of cutting he does he should be happy.
I do run the NK .325 on my 550XP and 338XPT and I'm really happy with it, excellent edge holding retention and cuts more aggressively then the .325 chisel 20LPX.
But I was sure impressed with the speed of the Picco chisel today on the 550.
Here's another pic of the 63PS Picco compared to the NK .325 for Rob to ponder over.


 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

joe_indi

Quote from: HolmenTree on December 13, 2013, 08:20:03 PM

Here's another pic of the 63PS Picco compared to the NK .325 for Rob to ponder over.


 
Coincidentally, months ago, I had uploaded a video on Youtube that shows the full chisel Stihl PS3 in action  in comparison with Stihl's semi chisel 63PM .Both chains were out of the box. What to see is the bigger chip size with the Picco Chisel running and the slightly increased cutting speed.Since then I tried it on my 026. The cutting is  nothing short of amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGopVRElc0o

massmanute

Bringing an old thread back to life, I find the whole topic of pitch, gauge, profile, and kerf rather confusing. I understand what pitch is, and I understand what gauge is, but it is unclear to me how profile and kerf fit into the picture, particularly in regards to compatibility.

I guess my real question boils down  to the following: If I have a sprocket and bar for 3/8" pitch and 0.05" gauge, are there any compatible chain types that can give narrow kerf than a standard chain? 

Application: Milling using a MS660 saw.

Thanks.  

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