Pruning in managed forests

[Clark]

SD brought it up in the "Tending your little piece of earth" thread and I pushed it further in that direction but I think the topic of pruning in forests deserves it's own thread. There are many ways we could follow this topic, so let's get 'em all!

I've been looking into this subject because my family has some red pine that is ready for it's first thinning and I plan on pruning the best remaining stems. WDH has recommended the Silky pole saws, I'm looking at getting the Hayauchi 21' version.  (I just looked it up and in the last week or two it has come down about $40 in price...Christmas sales or are they getting rid of old product?) Anyone else have experience with pole saws or pruning red pine for sawlogs?

Of course, Ianab has some great knowledge in this area and we can neglect what they do in NZ and Australia, the only thing I can offer is the following link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fYXBxk8Cks

It's obvious this isn't his first day on the job!

Clark

[thecfarm]

Offthebeatenpath said something about hand pruners,reply #22
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,70866.msg1064369.html#msg1064369

[John Vander]

That guy in the video knows his stuff.

[Ianab]

Having done a bit of that pruning, the video there shows how it's done pretty well. Being part ape does help  :D

But getting up in the tree makes for a faster and neater job, and seems to be a lot easier on the neck and shoulders.

My kit is pretty much exactly as shown, the lopper and saw are heavy duty steel things. They can take the abuse, get dropped out out trees etc

Power saws aren't favoured because it's too easy to damage the bark and end up leaving large scars. With the hand tools you can do a much neater job, and as shown, it's arguably faster.

Main thing is to prune early, if it's left later in the trees life all the knotty wood is already laid down in the trunk, and it's just a waste of time.

It does slow down the tree growth somewhat because you are removing some of it's green growth. But the lower branches are generally shaded, especially in a plantation situation, and so less important for growth, and where probably going to self prune later anyway. Other advantage we find here is removing the lower growth opens up the stand a lot, and helps control a fungus blight that likes wet conditions. It also helps with fire resistance. With the branches removed a fire will usually just burn across the ground with little damage, and has no "ladder" to get into the crowns of the trees and really become destructive.

Ian

[SwampDonkey]

Red pine would be worth pruning because it heals fast, grows fairly quick and is most valuable as a large log. Just keep the moose out of them. :D At least in these parts, a small red pine is only worth pulp or hog fuel prices, sometimes can't get rid of it at all.

As Ian said, I would scratch off power saws. They get heavy after a while and your arms get lazier as a result. I've seen many woodlot owners who prune and butcher the bark real bad with a chainsaw. Just be careful of how heavy you prune, you can loose volume growth rate potential. My idea is to remove those limbs that are not doing much or are dead. They will still make a knot as long as that useless limb is attached. Be aware of silvics, a shade tolerant softwood like spruce and fir can brush back up if the light gets to the stem. Not pine though. On the west coast of BC, the only pruning I saw was in the hemlocks. And the work was government subsidized.

[WDH]

In the Southern US, it is done with long pole saws (not the motorized kind  ).  Weyerhaeuser does it on a very large scale.  When the crews are in the woods pruning, you can hear the the "zing" of the saws from a good distance.  The experienced pruners only need one or two strokes on most limbs, but the saw has to be very sharp. 

[ayerwood]

That was a cool video of the hand pruning process.  Do those guidelines in the video pertain to only pine or to all softwoods in general? Or hardwoods too for that matter?  I am curious because I have a large western red cedar patch I will need to attend to in the next year or two.  Any thoughts?

[Ianab]

That particular regime would be specific to Radiata Pine, which seems to handle the heavy lift pruning well, especially the improved cultivars that are planted here. But a similar system can be used on most softwoods, just the timing, stem dia and how much greenery is left on the tree might need to be adjusted.  Douglas Fir, Nootka and Monterey cypress and Japanese Cedar are only grown on a smaller scale, but they can all be pruned and managed in a similar way.

Hardwoods do grow a little differently, but again it should be possible to improve log quality with a bit of careful pruning early on.

Like SD says, it's a balancing game. Remove too much greenery and you slow the trees growth too much. Don't remove enough, and you end up with a larger "defect core" at the centre of the log, and lower recovery of clear wood. It's also only worth doing if you are going to get a premium for clear high grade logs. If the wood is going for pulp etc, then not pruning actually produces more wood. Locally, pruned logs might sell for $300 / ton. Good unpruned sawlogs maybe $150. So a few minutes spent pruning each tree is a good investment.

Ian

[ayerwood]

Once again...Thank you Ian.   

[mesquite buckeye]

Red cedar branches are hard, tough and nasty. I'll stick with my chainsaw and power pruner. Just have to be careful and take a lot of breaks. I'm good at that. ;D

[Ianab]

Yeah, even heavy duty loppers aren't going to go through those hard cedar branches like they do on the soft young pine trees  :D

A good sharp heavy duty hand saw does OK though.

Ian

[Clark]

cfarm - Thanks for the link, that's another good review of the Silky saws...yet to see a legitimate bad review.

SD - You're right about pruning red pine, it does seem like more people should be pruning but as Ianab points out, some places have a market for pruned sawlogs, others don't.  As best I know, around here we don't have a higher paying market for that product.  Aside from market considerations it would seem that the silvics of red pine would allow one to prune ~100/acre right after the first thinning and then reap the benefit at 50 years for an industrial rotation. Or let them grow longer, harvest some of those pruned trees and have some monsters down the road that have nothing but clear wood in them.

Ianab - I had the same thought about being part ape...or 24 again! I have never seen a pruner that folds back on itself like the guy in the video has, who makes those?

WDH - What brand of pole pruners do the crews for Weyerhaeuser use? What is the price difference between clear and "normal" sawlogs?

Clark

[WDH]

Clark,

I do not know the brand of saw.  The poles are aluminum, but they are fixed for a given height, that is, they do not telescope out like the Silky saw.  The blades look just like the Silky blades, but I do not know if they are the same.

Weyerhaeuser uses the logs in their own sawmills to gain a lift in lumber quality.  The general open market does not recognize a premium for those  pruned logs, so you might have to be fully integrated to see any real value.  I did it on the 10 acres because the plantation is in the front of my house, and I wanted to do it, and I wanted the stand to look nice.  When and if it is harvested, not sure if there will be any incremental value that will be recognized.

Here is the stand in 2010 at age 23.



  

[SwampDonkey]

large clear red pine makes nice lumber. Only the knotty young red pine is fickle compared to large logs with clear fine grain wood. Mom has a round red pine kitchen table made of red pine, Not a knot in it. Nice and heavy to. When you take a hold of it you know you got something. ;D We have mills here that are medium sized that will saw other than spruce and fir logs. They'll saw hemlock and pine to if they are nice logs. ;D But I don't know that red pine logs have developed much of a market anywhere other than poles and log homes. We sure planted quite a few on woodlots. And the market for them was future utility poles.

Pasture spruce has no market much, but yet some people will try and make lumber out of severely knotted wood and then complain. :D

[SwampDonkey]

Meanwhile, I'm still pruning my saw logs for my future hobby mill. :D ;)

Like when Dirty Harry asked the cop friend if he's going to retire. "I'll never retire, I'm going out fight'n" ;)

[Ianab]

I have never seen a pruner that folds back on itself like the guy in the video has, who makes those?

I think they are made here in NZ by Levin Sawmakers.
http://www.timbersaws.co.nz/site/Index.html

I've not seen them on any web pages outside of NZ so I think they are just a local product made to fill a local need.

Is there a market locally for wide clear pine boards and beams? There is here, and they fetch a premium, hence the mill will pay the premium for the logs.

Other thing you should do is document the pruning. What and when, photos etc. This shows the buyer what stage they where pruned at, and helps them estimate the quality of the log before they saw into them. Can help with a better price, even if it's for your children.

Ian

[WDH]

The good thing is if the knot scars have disappeared, and the logs have clear faces, at least in southern yellow pine, that indicates clear wood, and the buyer will be able to see that.  In my pruned plantation, 14 years after pruning, the knots scars are still visible in the bark even though the tree has produced clear wood over that pruned limb for 14 years.  Knot scars (indicators) can persist for quite a long time in the bark in pine.   

[SwampDonkey]

I've seen fir heal injuries pretty quick, not even a rough spot on the bark, but you can still see evidence of something. But what looks like no rotten wood and the bark has smoothed over. Price will have to come up pretty good for anyone to get my logs. If it doesn't, just means they don't need my logs. ;)

[mesquite buckeye]

World famous clear red cedar


 


Pruned red oak


 


Healed over pruned red cedar


 

[Ianab]

Knot scars (indicators) can persist for quite a long time in the bark in pine.

Yes, hence the suggestion to document the pruning for future reference. If you have a 24" dia log, and you know it was pruned when it was 6" dia, then it's mostly clear wood, no matter what marks are left on the bark. If it was pruned when it was 18" dia, it's not much better than an un-pruned log, but the difference may not be obvious from the outside.

MB's good looking cedar tree there is the look you want. Healed over scars, and now any wood that's being added to that log is going to be nice clear high $$ stuff. Also reduces the taper effect as the new wood is laid pretty evenly up the butt log as the tree grows. You still have some, but the effect gets less as the log grows.

Ian

[enigmaT120]

I don't think pruning is very common out here.  I use a Logrite pole saw on my Douglas Fir, it cuts very fast and is light.  I guess I reach up maybe 12 - 14 feet.  I do it for looks, ease of moving through the woods, and fire resistance more than for any potential future financial benefit when I sell the logs.  The president of our local small woodlands association chapter invented a pedal powered device that gets you up into the trees for higher pruning, but they are expensive and I am sceptical that it has much benefit. 

[mesquite buckeye]

One other comment regarding pruning rot resistant trees, which are those that the dead branches persist for a long time. Examples: redcedar, white oak group, black locust to some extent, and red oak group to a lesser extent.

Persistant dead branches result in loose knots. I'm thinking pin oaks could make pretty good lumber if they were pruned early. Same deal with other oaks, lots higher quality logs.

The other thing is that if the tree ever gets harvested, you are going to have to cut those branches off at that time, increasing harvest costs. I'm thinking that in the case of redcedar especially, the combination of clear wood, easier forest access, and lowered harvest cost is a winner.

And don't forget lowered disease incidence because of better air circulation within the forest.

[Ianab]

Properly pruned logs will be beneficial for someone down the track.

Compare the cost of clear grade Douglas fir boards to the knotty equivalent. Even fast grown "second growth" or plantation stuff with the wider growth rings

The question becomes who is going to get the windfall. If the mill pays the same price for the logs, but cuts 50% more value in lumber, then they get the benefit. Forest owner looses as they did the extra work, for no extra return.

If you can get a 50% (or even 100% premium) for the higher quality logs, then it's you that reaps the benefit. And don't worry, the mill wont loose out in the deal, as they are can still make good profit on quality logs.

Ian

[mesquite buckeye]

When you mill your own you reap what was sown. ;D

[SwampDonkey]

Ian makes a good point. That's why my pruned trees are for me and not someone else. I know of no mill around here who would pay a cent more for clear softwood logs. We have no softwood veneer mills. There was one NB mill that bought a veneer mill in Maine, but they would not buy NB veneer logs. Thy had to go to there NB sawmill and on saw log price, which at the time was not even half the price, if I recall. They've been so used to crown timber for easy pickings that my logs wouldn't even get a second look anyway. And a fir log is worth less than a spruce log, don't matter if it's stamped SPF on the grade.

[beenthere]

When you mill your own you reap what was sown. ;D

If ya can live long enough...

[mesquite buckeye]

There's that. I'm working on it. ;D 8) 8) 8)

[SwampDonkey]

This long term stuff is meant to be done when your young. I got 20 years before I can even think about retiring, so them fir would saw out some nice on my horizontal slabber. Fir grows pretty good, at least mine anyway. I have 18" + a year growth on leaders as I look around this fall. And they are over 30 feet now. In 1993, I could look across my lot and see the high spot in the field to north. Haven't been able to do that for years. Neighbors to the south cut 45-50 year old fir (20") and 70 foot.

[mesquite buckeye]

I think in my case a lot of the planting and pruning will be for the next generation. But I am beginning to cut from the first thinned and pruned stands from the early 1990's, so who knows? My wife has ordered me to live to be 100. Doing my best, dear. ;D

[SwampDonkey]

Well good luck to ya. I just get through life the best way I know how. Lots of work, some just hobby, some pays the bills. :D

[GATreeGrower]

I like to go around the edges of the bottom lands of 4-7 year old Slash pine, pick the straightest and biggest trees, and prune just what I can reach with loppers.  Then spray the wounds with TreeKote.  Its my hope that I'm adding a couple of loads of poles to the harvest one day.  Assuming theres even still a market for poles in 25 years  :D