Water in Diesel

Corley5 · December 03, 2013, 09:33:25 PM

The Fabtek started running rough. I knew it was fuel filters. I hadn't changed them since last spring when I got the machine and it was past time. When I changed them the bowl on the main one was solid ice. I had to chip it out :

The new filters began to plug almost immediately :-\ I'd never drained the water out of the tank. I don't think anyone ever had. I pulled the 3/8" pipe plug out of the tank bottom and had to stick a screw driver in to break through the sludge. I couldn't believe the amount of water that came out

It ran a full stream for a while to the point I wondered if I'd pulled the wrong plug ;) ;D This was after I'd been running the machine for a several hours so everything was warm and much of the ice in the tank had melted. I've drained more water three more times since. Not as much as the first and less each time but enough. It's supposed to be fairly warm tomorrow and I hope to get the rest out after the remaining ice melts in the tank. Then a liberal dose of Sea Foam and a another set of filters and I hope I've got it. Its water that's been in there. I run filters on my transfer tanks, use Sea Foam regularly, keep tanks full, and haven't had issues with any other machines. I've never seen that much water come out of a fuel tank on a machine. I wish I'd have caught it in a bucket so I knew for sure how much there was but I guess there was at the very least 3 gallons and probably more

;)

Guess I should have drained it sooner ;D When it first starting running bad I was cutting a hillside and I think the water level was high enough in the tank that it sucked up water instead of fuel

thecfarm · December 03, 2013, 09:37:26 PM

Would that 911 stuff help? Forgot the name. Or do you just use that Sea Foam? The water must of been there when you brought it.

Corley5 · December 03, 2013, 09:53:38 PM

I've always had good luck with Sea Foam. I'm sure the water has been in there. There's a cover over the fill port plus a big cap so there's no way for rain to get in. It would take a long time for condensation to add up to that amount. I think the last crew that ran it was careless with their fuel.

Mainelogging94 · December 03, 2013, 09:55:01 PM

Where is the fuel pick up in the tank? Maybe your fuel cap vent is leaking or something along those lines, that seems like a awful lot of water for just normal conditions. I would say that the diesel 911 stuff would be a good option, as well as cen-pe-co makes a additive that works well, hopefully you can get it straightened out.

Gary_C · December 03, 2013, 10:00:25 PM

I've had a lot of problems with water in the fuel on my Ponsse too. The best solution is to always fill your fuel tank at night when you are done for the day to keep the condensation in those steel tanks under control. And keep the tank full as much as possible.

A friend of mine bought a small forwarder that came from Missouri and as soon as got down to zero he was fighting water/ice in his fuel. You would be amazed at how much condensation there is in those steel tanks.

It's good you got a reminder now before it really got cold. I've lost weeks in below zero weather trying to restart an engine that lost prime because of water.

coxy · December 04, 2013, 06:08:25 AM

I put 2 of those little cans of dry gas in there once a week never had any prob

snowstorm · December 04, 2013, 07:59:18 AM

with that much water i would look for rust in the tank. i had the same trouble with a cat excavator i bought. i put a magnet on a wire so i could take it out to clean it in the tank along with an inline filter before the pump. it was surprising how much rust the magnet picked up

barbender · December 04, 2013, 10:12:56 AM

I've been trying to be in the habit of filling up at night, for that reason. However, I've had to drain the tank on the Ponsse twice, it had zero water in it. I know because it drained on my head while replacing tank shut off solenoids (they are part of the fire suppression system) :D

barbender · December 04, 2013, 10:21:47 AM

BTW, don't dump Diesel 911 in your tank. I don't think it is meant to be a water dispersant, it is designed to de-gel fuel. The can even says only to use it in emergencies, like a truck froze up on the side of the interstate, hence the 911 name. I think the instructions say to take your filters off and fill them with 911, then dump the rest in the tank. There is no additive that is going to fix whatever is causing Corley's water problem, that's too much H2O.

1270d · December 04, 2013, 11:16:23 AM

Power service I think is the brand that makes 911 also have a everyday use additive. I think this one absorbs some water and lowers the freeze point of the fuel
. Anyone blending fuel yet? I should start, getting to that time of year.

ehp · December 04, 2013, 03:43:57 PM

Gary has the right answer in my mind as I always do the same thing and keep it full , If you donot fill the tank up after your finished for the day in the cold weather , In the morning just take a look in the tank and you will see a ton of ice crystals above the fuel line in the tank, remember most fuel systems now a day return warm fuel back to the tank so the tank is quite warm so when it cools down it forms a ton of ice in it

jwilly3879 · December 04, 2013, 05:52:03 PM

K100 for diesel fuel works wonders and a little goes a long way but not 3 gallons worth.

Corley5 · December 04, 2013, 06:15:12 PM

I didn't run the machine today. I'm far enough ahead of the forwarder that I took today to process some firewood. He'll catch me by the end of the day tomorrow. I'm going to change the fuel filters in the AM and also give it an engine oil change. I drained a tablespoon or so of water out of it this afternoon when I was there. I was thinking about the condensation issue and I'm sure it's a problem with this machine ;) ;D Especially since half the counterweight is fuel and the other half is hydraulic oil which can be fairly warm at times. It was 105 degrees when I shut it off yesterday. I'm going to be sure to fuel it at the end of the day. I'd rather grease and fuel then but don't always.
I haven't noticed any rust or other particles in the filters and nothing but water came out after the first little bit sludge on the first draining. It's all been clean including the water since.

Dave Shepard · December 04, 2013, 06:35:01 PM

Recently a fuel supplier known for delivering water contaminated fuel had to have his delivery truck towed. It had 10 gallons of water in the trucks fuel tank. Karma is great. :D

barbender · December 05, 2013, 12:51:49 AM

How do water dispersant/absorbents work, anyways? I mean, is the water chemically changed or bonded to something else?

Ianab · December 05, 2013, 01:04:17 AM

A "dispersant" would be something like an alcohol. It can mix with both water and oils. A small amount of water will mix with some alcohol, and this then will dissolve in the fuel. As it's dissolved it can pass though the engine without causing as much of a problem. It's not "good", but it's a heck of a lot better than a slug of pure water in the injectors or carb. At least the engine keeps running.

wolf nemeth · December 05, 2013, 09:30:40 AM

coxy, can you explain about the dry ice strategy? How and why does it work?
thanks

coxy · December 05, 2013, 02:14:56 PM

Quote from: coxy on December 04, 2013, 06:08:25 AM
I put 2 of those little cans of dry gas in there once a week never had any prob

dry gas ;D not dry ice :D dry gas has alcohol in it to rid it of water again dry gas ;D

Ianab · December 05, 2013, 04:00:47 PM

Which is what I explained in the "dispersant" post.

But actually, dry ice might help too. Throw some dry ice in the tank, and it would sublimate back into a gas, and could replace the air (and moisture) in the 1/2 full fuel tank? No moist air remains to condense water into the fuel as the temperature drops.

It's actually used on some fuel storage tanks, but mostly to reduce the risk of explosion. Fuel vapour + CO2 = no bang. But it would also reduce condensation in the tank.

SPIKER · December 05, 2013, 07:49:39 PM

Quote from: Ianab on December 05, 2013, 04:00:47 PM
..

It's actually used on some fuel storage tanks, but mostly to reduce the risk of explosion. Fuel vapour + CO2 = no bang. But it would also reduce condensation in the tank.

On most tanks of fuel the fuel vapors are kept high, no oxygen means the vapor amount can't explode without the O2. Not saying they would not pressurize with CO2 but why dump in expensive gasses into the tank when vaporization will keep flammability down.

wolf nemeth · December 06, 2013, 06:00:37 PM

Ah, dry ice,...dry gas....what's the difference? Glad at least I made you laugh, Coxy. And thank you both, Spiker and Ianab, for taking the heat off me!! I WILL read these posts more carefully!

coxy · December 06, 2013, 10:44:44 PM

Quote from: wolf nemeth on December 06, 2013, 06:00:37 PM
Ah, dry ice,...dry gas....what's the difference? Glad at least I made you laugh, Coxy. And thank you both, Spiker and Ianab, for taking the heat off me!! I WILL read these posts more carefully!

not to worry I have done the same got to pick on some one besides me :D

SawyerBrown · December 07, 2013, 12:30:50 PM

As a former engine design guy (Cat), can't emphasize enough how important it is to get that water out of the fuel. The fuel injectors rely on fuel for lubrication for VERY tight clearances (down in the 5 micron range), and water has very low lubricity, which means that at any point when you're running water through them, they could scuff and eventually seize. Then you're stuck replacing injectors. That's great news for the engine company (Deere?), who love to sell you replacement parts, but bad news for you.
Most machine manufacturers recommend checking and/or draining water from the fuel DAILY. I'm not surprised you drained gallons, Corley5, if it's been months or years.
To be on the really safe side, you might think about adding a water separator. Most have a clear plastic bottom, so any water that gets through settles on the bottom and you can just check it daily and drain as necessary.
Just my 2 cents worth!

Dieselsteve · December 07, 2013, 11:02:53 PM

This may have already been said and sorry if it has, but seafoam is one of the best treatments, but with that much water in the tank there is algae in there and that will cause filters to clog also so my recommendation take it or leave it is the company power services the one that makes the diesel 911 which is for gelled fuel also makes a product for algae in the tank that will take care of that problem.

Corley5 · December 27, 2013, 08:32:19 AM

The injector pump has failed which I'm sure is a direct result of the water problem. The best part is instead of a Stanadyne pump this engine has a Lucas which costs double to repair. This has been one VERY expensive learning experience. I've been around more than one piece of diesel off road equipment and never had this problem. The pump on this machine was a real PITA to get off too. Very little room to work between the side of the engine and the counterweight. Everything has to be accessed from the top or the back end of the engine. It's been in the single digits for highs. We broke a bolt off when pulling the pump drive gear. Luckily a left hand bit turned it out otherwise the radiator etc would have been removed to access the front of the engine. This hasn't been a pleasant experience in the least. Because it's a Lucas pump no shops have one on the shelf for an exchange. I sent this one in to be rebuilt and it should be back the middle of next week but Wednesday is a holiday and it's supposed to back in the single digits for highs again. If it was a Stanadyne pump I could have had one today and it's supposed to be close to freezing today and in the mid thirties tomorrow. And the best part is it's got to be reassembled and made to run again. Once we were into this teardown I was wishing I'd have had a mechanic come out and do it. It would have been worth the $$$ this time around

I could have found something else to do to make $$$ to pay him