How much wood can this woodchuck expect to chuck?

[woodrat]

So, I know this is a question loaded with variables, but I figured it would be worth asking anyway.

My parents have a couple of small lots in SW WA state, one 3 acres and one 5 acres, and both are covered in 30-50 year old alder. Both are reasonably level ground and the small lot has easy access, too. I can't seem to get any conventional logging outfits even interested in looking at them, I guess they're too small for the guys around here, used to doing 200 acre clearcuts for the corporate landowners.

Anyway, I have a 32 HP tractor, and have some experience selectively logging alder on my own place for firewood with a borrowed Farmi winch. I was thinking of buying my own winch, and doing at least the three acre parcel myself, but I'm trying to figure out how much I can expect to get done in a day or week, so I can figure out if it would be worth it.

I would be clearing most of the three acre lot, since it has a view and they would like to sell it after we cut the alder.

The lots were cruised in 2007 or so, and the small lot had about 44 mbf of alder on it at that time, so maybe about 9 truck loads?

Any help I could get with estimating time on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[redprospector]

Way too many variables here.
Are you just talking about the time to cut & skid the timber? Or time to complete the slash treatment too? What kind of slash treatment are we talking about, if any? Since you're talking about selling it after the harvest, I'm assuming (yes, I know what happens when I assume), that you are going to want to do a pretty extensive slash treatment. Another variable is that 30 to 50 year old trees vary quite a bit from place to place. I'd bet that a 50 year old tree in WA is a lot bigger than a 50 year old tree in Southern NM. How tall are these trees, and what's the DBH?

Andy

[thecfarm]

Depends on how fussy you are too. I rarely drop only one tree when I cut one. Even 2 inches through gets cut,if it gets knocked down. Hard to run through the brush with a tractor too. I cut anything that I leave about 2-3 feet long,2 feet is better. I have no idea how much alder sells for roadside. I've never even seen that stuff. But one thing I do know,you will get ALL the money. I have cut here on my land and got all the money and I have shared the money with a logger. Cutting it yourself is the way to go. I have 150 arces and no way was I gaining on the wood.Even pulp at $50 a cord I was making money.

[woodrat]

The trees are mostly 12-18" dbh, with some smaller ones mixed in. Probably one full length log truck length log per stem. There's a little bit of fir, too, but not much.

I would be only cutting and skidding the logs to a place that a self loader could pick it up. The way the lot is shaped, the farthest corner is about 225 yards from the road. I have a mill, but no ready market for green alder lumber, so I would just sell the logs.

Slash would be lopped 2-3' long and left spread out on the ground, which is how I do it here at home. Anything over 2" or so but less than marketable I would take home as firewood. Depending on when I do the job, I might have access to a teenager to lop slash and load cordwood. She's done it for me at home before, not that she was too happy about it...  ;)

[mad murdock]

I would call NW Hardwoods or RSG and get a buyer to look and have a contract in hand before I cut any. Alder and Big leaf maple, the mills don't like it to be more than a week or two from stump to mill. You would need to get it down and to the mill straight away.

[redprospector]

Ok, since some of the variables have been removed I'll venture a W.A.G.
Not knowing if you are, or have ever been a production faller or not, I'd say working by yourself with a 32 hp. tractor, 1 acre per week would be a pretty safe bet (but don't hold me too it). Your mileage may vary.  :D

I've never cut Alder before, but when I was falling for the mill (I was younger then) we would cut better than 10,000 bd. ft. a day in trees that size. So 4 days to get it on the ground and worked up.
When you're doing it by yourself, I find logging to be a lot like Elk hunting. Once he's on the ground, the work starts.

Andy

[woodrat]

I would call NW Hardwoods or RSG and get a buyer to look and have a contract in hand before I cut any. Alder and Big leaf maple, the mills don't like it to be more than a week or two from stump to mill. You would need to get it down and to the mill straight away.

Yes, absolutely. Alder does not keep well as a sawlog. I talked to NW hardwoods years ago when we were first thinking of cutting these lots.

I was thinking that if I could get the whole thing done in three weeks or less I would come out alright.

[thenorthman]

Greatings

First off 44 mbf seems a bit high for 3 acres.  and thay would be more along the lines of about 11 log loads, you might be able to squeeze out 2 loads to the acre, unless there is some really nice alder in there.

Secondly, Tractor logging is slow, the winch helps, but tractors just plain suck in the sticks.  Figure on getting maybe a load a week.

Do call the mills, northwest hardwoods will be more than happy to set a price for you.  There are more around I'm just not real familiar with that end of the state.

And find a Self loader, I know of a couple around centralia that might be willing to wander on down... a closer one would be much better.

[thecfarm]

And I have no idea how your state is,but here in Maine I need to fill out an intent to log paperwork through the state. It's no big deal here. A very simple form,just keep all the slips from the mill or mills you sell too. Only takes about an ½ hour to do. Or use too. I have not done one for 15 years.
I can only cut about a cord a day of hardwood,that is wood no bigger than 18 inches across with my tractor. And that is doing a fussy,clean job too. No jumping and bulling,cutting the limbs off for firewood,just an easy day with me,the woods,and my tractor.
Now I THINK I could double that if I just sawed the limbs off and not bother with the small stuff. But than I would have to pull out more cable because I could not drive through the brush either.

[ayerwood]

Woodrat,

My property is south of Olympia and I have been selling alder logs for years.  I have relatively flat land and also use a tractor and farmi winch.  You would not want a logging outfit on parcels that small anyway.  Even if an outfit did the work, you will get very little money.  A few thoughts I had:

Do not cut alder at 40'.  The taper in red alder will kill you on the scale.  I use Cascade Hardwoods in Chehalis.  Call them and ask for Tom(their buyer) and get some ideas and a spec sheet.  He is a good and helpful guy.  I use a self loader and my longest logs I cut are 31'.  I can get 3-4mbf per load and easily a couple loads per week by myself.  Sometimes 3.

This time of year, with our cooler weather, it is ok for alder to be down longer than a week.  It is common for me to have logs sitting around for 3-4 weeks in the winter with no problems at all.  In the summer, however, you want to get them out asap and keep them in a shaded area.

Make sure you get a self loader and plan with him.  A self loader will need a certain amount of bunk logs to carry your load.  Cascade will take logs as short as 16'8" so I have plenty of small guys that get loaded as well.  What is nice about their spec sheet is the various log lengths they accept make it easy to drag an entire alder to the landing and cut it up in those sizes with the least amount of leftover(waste aka pulp/firewood).

Also, look into selling veneer logs.  Minimum size is 12" which sounds like what you have.  There are several places around western Washington that buy them but look into the smaller log yards.  They usually have a piece of that market and will take smaller amounts at much greater prices than a sawlog.  An alder veneer log only needs to be 9'6" or 10'6".  They will also work out transport of those short logs since most self loaders cannot carry pieces that short.  Get their spec sheet as well to figure biggest bang for the buck.

Just my 2 cents.  Good luck to ya...

[woodrat]

Thanks for all the input, guys. It looks like this is a workable proposition. I don't need to make a pile of money on the job anyway, just need to help my aging parents deal with these lots, and when I wasn't having any luck at getting anyone to bid on it, I started looking at winches.

I was wondering about the taper, and whether or not the alder mills paid by scale or by weight. There is some nice alder in there, the cruise there showed about a quarter of it being 12" and up on the small end.  And I don't mind having firewood, either.

Hadn't thought of the veneer market, didn't realize that they did that with alder. I'll look that up, thanks!

[Southside]

Hi Woodrat, 
Not sure if the conditions you are in are the same as what I work in but I have done some logging with my 67 HP 2 WD IH tractor - and like others said - it sucked, my production was 1/3rd or less than that with my JD 540a skidder.  One thing to watch out for is the lack of armoring on a tractor compared to a skidder, can be really easy to break things or get hurt with a rogue stick.  I was able to put up 1/3rd of a semi load per day working with the smaller twitches and such.  Of course if that is what you have and expenses are low then it may very well make sense to do the job with it. 

[thenorthman]

Some more "help"...

Most of the self loaders here in warshington are set up to load long logs, that being said, many of them can bunk down to 20'8", however they don't like it.  So if you can try cutting 1/3-1/2 of the load at 24'8" or better.  It helps the trucks drive better, cause the trailer has more steer to it.  The down side is that most of the mills are full up on 24's, so if you can cut longer you'll get a better scale.  Not all your logs have to be the same length, if you have enough  bunk logs you can stack 16's 10's 12's or whatever in between, it all depends on what the mills want and what the log is telling you to buck it at, you'll lose a little on total volume but make up for it by having a better scale.

There are only a handful of pulp mills around anymore, maybe more down your way, so most mills will pay scale (scribner C) and nearly all mills have gone over to a bureau scale (third party scaler), for better or worse...

And if I lived anywhere near ya I would have given you a bid, I'm small scale, three acres is just about right for me.  the 200 mile commute is not though :D