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Need opinions , on a BIG decision

Started by valley, November 10, 2013, 07:39:44 PM

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valley

Ok I've been talking with a local sawyer for over a year now on his equipment , he is wanting to move and semi retire so here goes , he has offered me all of the following for 25 k or my b-20 ( 08 model with 650 hrs ) and 5 k trade , if I trade I will buy another band mill because I'm trying to expand my operation not trade it and I like the portability , he has a windham mill and windham two blade edger , the mill has one 54" blade and one 52" blade and two sets of new teeth , sharpening equipment , live 17 ft live deck hydralic log turner and head locks with three heads , 12 ft carriage will cut logs a little over 16 ft , 150 ft of dust chain , conveyer belt ( take boards away ), belt is powered with a small gas eng  cab with ac and heat ( small window unit ) , mill powered with a totally rebuilt 290 cummins ( 460 hrs since rebuild ) 250 gallon fuel tank modified from a propane tank , the mill is all steel and mounted on a 46 ft flatbed trailer with a removable wheel dolly , it is currently set up and I ran it today everything seems to run great with the exception of one cylinder is not working on the far right head lock but he has cut with it with the other two heads for quit a while , the edger is powered witha 239 john deer that needs the valves adjusted he had to put a new head gasket on it and has not completed that so I have not heard or seen it run , the edger also has a sawdust chain set on a steel frame on an incline that you can back a dump truck or trailer under, also a 1990 freight liner fld with a 425 cat ( needs brakes on rear and tires ) runs good 85 k miles on rebuilt eng. has no trailer or wet kit , and finally a sky track lull made by ford I guess has ford on transmission says new holland on exhaust manifold 35 ft reach 6000 lb capacity and it runs looks and lifts great all for 25k or my timberking and 5k , he just wants to downsize and relocate , seems like a good deal to me but really would like to know what y'all think , thanks for any help , I am really hoping and praying to work my way into full time sawing , I always have the dirt work and residential construction to fall back on but this is what I enjoy the most , I just like most of us have limited resources therefore I need to make good decisions hopefully I have gave y'all enough info to help , also includes 30 ft of roller beds
Have a great day unless you have other plans !!!

drobertson

Yea, you have a bonified head scratching situation there for sure,  and I am still scratching my head, this is a hard one, I kinda like the idea of keeping your present band mill, just cause you know what you can do with it. The other mill may have some periodic down times, that get into your lunch sack, hope all goes well,   david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

valley

Thanks for the reply I'm seeing that this is getting lots of views but very little replies , maybe it's to much of a head scratcher , I'm really thinking that him giving me 20 k trade alowance for the b-20 is pretty good I have been wanting to upgrade the band mil anyway probably a tk 2000 , but I really don't know what all the other stuff is worth I'd guess the lull at 7000, freight liner around 7000, and I'm basing that on what I've seen at equipment auctions and the circle mill and edger I'm not really sure but from what I've researched on line I'd say about 20 grand on those I hope I get some more input from the guys here
Have a great day unless you have other plans !!!

redprospector

Remember what they say about opinions...everybody has one.  :D
From where I'm sitting (in my recliner at least 1200 miles west of you, with no financial ties to your decision), it sounds like a smoking deal. But I'm not the one who will "sink or swim" as a  result of the decision.
You're right, YOU have a BIG decision to make. If it were me, I'd be tossin' and turnin' all night thinking about it.

Andy
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

Hilltop366

I can't help you with the value of the equipment but what I think of first when looking at stuff is if I want to do what it is going to take to keep things running (money and time) that is a lot more gear to keep moving compared to one band mill but I bet it will cut a wack of lumber in a short time.

It might be wise to check things out again and take someone with you that can offer a second opinion.

Magicman

It's too much of a head scratcher for my opinion.   smiley_dizzy
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

valley

Quote from: redprospector on November 10, 2013, 10:11:47 PM
Remember what they say about opinions...everybody has one.  :D
From where I'm sitting (in my recliner at least 1200 miles west of you, with no financial ties to your decision), it sounds like a smoking deal. But I'm not the one who will "sink or swim" as a  result of the decision.
You're right, YOU have a BIG decision to make. If it were me, I'd be tossin' and turnin' all night thinking about it.
Yea I'm tossin and turnin right now
Andy
Have a great day unless you have other plans !!!

fishpharmer

Valley, I found a youtube with a Windham mill, is this similar to the one in your deal?
http://youtu.be/8WQwJYQGb4w

I don't know enough about circle mill's to give an opinion.  What are the limitations of your present setup that would be improved with all the "new" equipment?  The  "new" equipment may be a maintenance nightmare, or maybe not.  Praying always helps.
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

5quarter

I'd do it for sure. as long as you have the space to work and utilize the equipment and as long as you're prepared to step up to the Majors. a lot you can do with the gear you listed off. I wouldn't bother with another bandmill if I were you. if you really need something cut on a bandsaw, hire him to do it. I'd spend my time scaring up steady work and getting the most out of that saw. No portable bandmill is a match for a well tuned circle saw. That's big dog equipment for sure. If you really want to run a sawmill full time, there's your chance.
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

mad murdock

The only question that pops up for me is will you be able to feed the mill with logs? That setup will process a lot more logs than your B20 in any given Amount of time, and if you want to do it for more than just a hobby, you will need to count on a steady log supply, not to mention buyers wanting the product coming off the milling operation.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

redbeard

Valley  you will have to overcome a learning curve switching to circle sawing. You knowledge and experience will help you but its going to eat up a lot of time. Maintaining all that equipment is going too occur more cost plus your going to need more employees. The B-20 is economic to run. The 2000 will get you a lot more production with faster up down and you can cut 8" wider. If your looking to produce more dimensional lumber a swing mill would be a good choice to run with the B-20 especially being potable it can be transported in truck pulling the TK. 
Whidbey Woodworks and Custom Milling  2019 Cooks AC 3662T High production band mill and a Hud-son 60 Diesel wide cut bandmill  JD 2240 50hp Tractor with 145 loader IR 1044 all terrain fork lift  Cooks sharp

longtime lurker

Big caveat on all this: I don't know anything about windham equipment, but having said that:

IF you can get enough logs to keep the mill fed
and
IF you've got enough of a market to keep YOU fed.
and
IF you really want to run a sawmill full time.

To me this would be a no-brainer. A decent circle mill will cut rings around a portable band.

If you stood the circle mill up against a band and two equal log piles... at the end of the first day the circle guy would be at home. At the end of the third day the bandmiller would have gotten a few % more recovery.
You can do your current annual volume in a hell of a lot less time, meaning you can make as much money and spend more time fishing or whatever... or use the extra time to saw more logs. There's no such thing as a mill that cuts too fast.
Sawmilling is a volume business. He who cuts the most volume at the lowest cost generally wins.

Personally if I had that choice (assuming I had the logs and enough of a market) I'd finance the circle mill and keep the bandmill. There's a lot of flexibility in having both, and also if you get a breakdown you aren't totally stopped. Failure to deliver on time kills ongoing business relationships - and those are the ones you need to survive in this game. While it is occasionally unavoidable it needs to be a very rare occurance.

Just my $0.02, whatever you choose I wish you luck with it.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

mmartone

I would make a list, pros and cons, work off that. Would you keep all the stuff or sell some of it and recoup $? Sounds like a heck of a deal to me but will the circle do all you need it to do to satisfy your current customers so you can stay in biz? After selling any stuff you dont want how much will that help towards a circle mill?
Remember, I only know what you guys teach me. Lt40 Manual 22hp KAwaSaki, Husky3120 60", 56" Panther CSM, 372xp, 345xp, Stihl 041, 031, blue homelite, poulans, 340

valley

Thanks for all the replies , can someone tell me how to answer these posts one at a time where my reply is inserted into each post individually
Have a great day unless you have other plans !!!

PC-Urban-Sawyer

Quote from: valley on November 11, 2013, 08:19:15 AM
Thanks for all the replies , can someone tell me how to answer these posts one at a time where my reply is inserted into each post individually

Just click on the quote button on the post you want to reply to.  Be sure to reply after the close quote token (the slash quote enclosed in square brackets...) You can use preview to check how it will appear.

Herb


thecfarm

Quote from: PC-Urban-Sawyer on November 11, 2013, 08:44:48 AM
Quote from: valley on November 11, 2013, 08:19:15 AM
where my reply is inserted into each post individually

(the slash quote enclosed in square brackets...) You can use preview to check how it will appear.

Herb

And if you want you can click onto a qoute and delete part of it too,as I did. And yes,please use the preview button too make sure it makes some sense too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

dboyt

Quote from: longtime lurker on November 11, 2013, 06:40:17 AM
IF you can get enough logs to keep the mill fed
and
IF you've got enough of a market to keep YOU fed.
and
IF you really want to run a sawmill full time.

To me this would be a no-brainer. A decent circle mill will cut rings around a portable band.

Another thing to think about...  You are probably used to operating solo.  It will take two HARD working people to run the Windham mill, and three to run it smoothly.  Are you ready to take on some employees?  What support equipment will you need to add?  First thing that comes to mind is a good-sized loader.  If you are out on a portable job with the band mill, the circle mill will be sitting idle, but you'll still have your employees to keep busy.  If you are running the circle mill, the band mill is sitting idle, though you could cut cants on the circle mill and re-saw them on the band mill.  Keep us posted.  I think everyone is watching to see what you decide.
Norwood MX34 Pro portable sawmill, 8N Ford, Lewis Winch

fishpharmer

Quote from: valley on November 11, 2013, 08:19:15 AM
Thanks for all the replies , can someone tell me how to answer these posts one at a time where my reply is inserted into each post individually

You mean something like this?

Go to post you want to answer and hit "quote" button on top right side of post, a reply will automatically pop up with quote in it.  Not sure if that works with ipads and all browsers.
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

valley

Quote from: mmartone on November 11, 2013, 07:44:33 AM
I would make a list, pros and cons, work off that. Would you keep all the stuff or sell some of it and recoup $? Sounds like a heck of a deal to me but will the circle do all you need it to do to satisfy your current customers so you can stay in biz? After selling any stuff you dont want how much will that help towards a circle mill?
I am planning on keeping all the stuff , the lull will be a lot of help handling logs and the truck will be great because I need it to haul my Dozer and escalator
Have a great day unless you have other plans !!!

valley

Quote from: fishpharmer on November 11, 2013, 09:56:27 AM
Quote from: valley on November 11, 2013, 08:19:15 AM
Thanks for all the replies , can someone tell me how to answer these posts one at a time where my reply is inserted into each post individually
Got it thanks
You mean something like this?

Go to post you want to answer and hit "quote" button on top right side of post, a reply will automatically pop up with quote in it.  Not sure if that works with ipads and all browsers.
Have a great day unless you have other plans !!!

valley

Quote from: 5quarter on November 11, 2013, 12:23:18 AM
I'd do it for sure. as long as you have the space to work and utilize the equipment and as long as you're prepared to step up to the Majors. a lot you can do with the gear you listed off. I wouldn't bother with another bandmill if I were you. if you really need something cut on a bandsaw, hire him to do it. I'd spend my time scaring up steady work and getting the most out of that saw. No portable bandmill is a match for a well tuned circle saw. That's big dog equipment for sure. If you really want to run a sawmill full time, there's your chance.
i have to agree don't think I will be in a hurry to replace the band mill might set my sights on a baker resaw or something of that nature
Have a great day unless you have other plans !!!

valley

Well I did it I made the trade and was really not even going to try and talk him down I felt I was getting a good deal but he came over this afternoon and knocked a grand off and threw in a box trailer ( 18 wheeler ) and we did the deal , I will take some pics and start posting them in the next couple of days thanks to everyone for all of the good advice as far as labor, as some mentioned ,I also run a Christian based recovery house that helps with men who have had addiction problems. The branch of hope, when I bought the timberking I wasn't sure how the guys would like sawmill labor but most of them love being at the mill and this should allow more room for more of them to work I weighed all the pros and cons and I just really think this will open doors in several directions . More will be revealed !!  :)
Have a great day unless you have other plans !!!

valley

Quote from: Hilltop366 on November 10, 2013, 10:24:15 PM
I can't help you with the value of the equipment but what I think of first when looking at stuff is if I want to do what it is going to take to keep things running (money and time) that is a lot more gear to keep moving compared to one band mill but I bet it will cut a wack of lumber in a short time.

It might be wise to check things out again and take someone with you that can offer a second opinion.
i took your advice on taking someone with meand the guy I took has owned band and circle mills and when we pulled up he was JAW DROPPED , he absolutely could not believe the deal I was being offered and actually said if I didn't want to do it he would buy the guy a brand new mill and trade it to him so after seeing marks reaction I had total confirmation that this was a good thing and mark is one of those guys who is not easily impressed
Have a great day unless you have other plans !!!

fishpharmer

Congratulations!!! Maybe you shoulda waited another day ;) 8).  Looking forward to pics.
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

mad murdock

Congratulations on the new (mill)operation! 8)
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

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