PC or Mac

[woodsteach]

My school is looking to purchase a lot of new computers so the discussion begins on which platform PC or Mac.  If you wouldn't mind,

1. List your profession

2. Name your Platform

I'm just gathering information for a meeting tomorrow about what the "real world" is using.

Thank you

Paul

[Warbird]

This isn't the real world here, tho.  ;)

1.  IT Manager for a large team of IT professionals taking care of enterprise level databases and the linux/unix systems they reside on.

2.  Both.  I like running a Macbook Pro and VMWare Fusion.  I can then either natively boot into Windows or run Windows in a VM within OS X.  This gives me the best of all worlds and I have a Unix shell when needed.

What will your school be doing with the new computers?  What needs will they fulfill?  How many computers are you purchasing?  What level is your school at (k-12, university)?

[SwampDonkey]

Forestry, GPS/GIS requires me to have a PC

Hobbies, like weaving, requires a PC for drafting new weave ideas.

Some folks have all kinds of troubles on a PC, but I must be lucky I guess. No major issues, very few little ones and rare.

[fishpharmer]

1. Fisheries biologist. /farmer

2. PC/windows for data crunching

[Ianab]

1 - Computer Tech

2 - Windows / Linux

Chuck Linux into the equation if you really want to set the cat amongst the pigeons  :D In a classroom situation it's actually a viable alternative. What you learn in LibreOffice and Gimp can be applied to MSOffice and Photoshop with about as much difficulty as changing versions of Office.

Personally I'm not a Mac fan. It does have the strength of being a "closed system", which can be more stable and secure, which is an advantage in a school situation. But it's also much less flexible compared to more open systems, and Open Source like Linux.

Ian

[GrahamW]

1 - System Engineer specialising in Oracle PL / SQL and unix scripting

2 - Work - Red Hat Linux running a virtual XP machine to connect to the clients large Unix servers, because we have to :-/
     Home - Windows, Mac Book, Hacintosh, iPhones, Raspberry Pi and Android phones.

What is the real world using?  Our client is a large utility company and they basically have 2 types of applications - bespoke software that only exists for that company and your standard office applications which in this case, and I am sure many others, is MS Office.  What do the local job markets advertise for?  Do you want to teach them how computers work or teach them skills that employers are looking for?

Regards

[clearcut]

1. Consulting Forester, Dad with a 6th grader and a 3rd grader.

2. Mac OS X (Mac mini), Windows Vista (though I should upgrade) for 1 application (NED-2), and an old Windows XP computer for the kids. My wife needs Windows and Internet Explorer specifically to log in to work remotely. iPad (1st Gen), Android (Jellybean), and iPod Touch (4th gen)

I'm a big Mac fan and have been so for a while. For a school with limited tech support resources, I feel that the Mac, because it has a superior security model, is a better choice. The Mac Mini is competitively priced and more than powerful enough for school use. Apple usually gives a price break to educational institutions. Modern Macs can boot into Mac OS X, Windows, or Linux. With the latest system version, the iWork applications are included - Pages for Word Processing, Numbers for a spreadsheet, and Keynote for presentations. iLife is also included - iPhoto, iMovie, and Garage Band.

I respectfully disagree with Ianab. With the exception of some proprietary software, and a few Windows specific applications (like NED-2), the Mac is just as flexible as Windows, can be booted into Windows if necessary, and can run Linux also. I do agree that Linux can be a good choice. Linux boxes will be the least expensive to purchase, but you need a dedicated Linux nerd available to keep everything running smoothly.

My kid's school uses a networked Windows solution, and it simply fails nearly every time more than a few students try to do anything. Some machines always lock up, printing is nearly impossible, and the Microsoft Office applications are overly complex for the younger kids.

Microsoft Office is indeed the solution currently used in the real world, but it does not have to be.

I have my kids use Mac OS X, Linux (Qimo is great), and Windows XP. I want them learn the concepts so they can use any operating system.

[giant splinter]

Project Engineer --- Construction
Principle Engineer --- RMC Engineering Est. 1968
Mac platform interfaced with Trimble DGPS, Topography and machine control systems in field work.
Two laptops and an office desktop / very few problems
Iphone is nice but I miss my Blackberry, I do have a windows 98 desktop that still keeps up with a few things when I need it like interfacing a hand held  Garmin GPS with Topo USA, also navigation software for offshore fishing, I use both and prefer using the one that is best suited in any given application.
Apple equipment works good for me at work and with personal stuff like photography, music and internet.

[SwampDonkey]

In a previous job, we used Macs, the Power Mac generation. We used them for road design (Mac Road) and for terrain mapping. They crashed a lot, mainly because we were using legacy software for the Motorola 68xxx series CPU. When the spinning disk of death showed up on the screen, time to reboot. Locked up tight otherwise. ;D GIS has been on the Mac a long time, sort of, but it was always under Linux using ESRI's ArcInfo. Never was a ArcView/ArcMap released for native Mac OS. Had to use a Mac SE30 for my thesis writing, always crashed because it could not handle removable SCSI media well, such as Zip disks. It was the OS, because I could emulate a Mac 100 % and the same issue would happen with SCSI zip disks. Everything would lock up. When in the native non Mac OS, worked fine. At the time most of the forestry department in college used Macs. I guess they liked the interface and at the time all the pretty fonts that Jobs spend a good deal of time developing with the help of a fellow that never used a computer, just a pen. ;)

[Raider Bill]

Small business owner 26 years

5 in house windows PC's

off site cloud windows server 8

[SPIKER]

Early career in school was Mac (Apple IIs in fact) :/ :  then in Military Dos type specific stuff can't remember (CRS) then in college had both PCs in Engineering (286 systems and in the standard classes there were Macs and the Apple Talk software installed on with writing programs made playing with less computer literate people fun (lots of "possessed"  machines in that room :D 8))   I figured out the university main network OK and could locate rooms but individual machines by IP was happenstance so had to fire it up and starting typing and look for the people to start to freak out to know which mac I was into... 8)   After then has been all PCs with Windows, my first owned PC was Packard Bell Pentium 75 Top of the line.   it was still running some 15 years later (sold it to work for a shop machine.)   After than I bought a DELL worst machine ever.   I nick named that then a 4 letter work that rimed with DELL only had a H in it! :D >:(   Had to have about 2/3's of that thing replaced in first 6 months...   Finally gave up calling them and bought my own parts to FIX it mostly...   Ended up building my own systems after that, until it got so cheap to buy them now running 4 different laptops Toshiba's and HPs.   My last Home Built still has Win98 and will fire up with a reboot disk as the cmos battery died.   It has lots of old job photos and software files on it so it sets gathering dust for the days when I need to fire it up for some old ACAD files and PLC software for OLD machines i have out in fields.

Mark

[Sixacresand]

Retired mines planner.  We used nice desktop PC's to run Cad, hydrology studies, aerial rasters and the Microsoft office programs.  Since I retired, I have only bought laptops (Dell or HP) which seems only work only a couple of months after the warranty runs out.  Recently I bought a IPad which I think has potential.  I am still learning a free cad ap I downloaded.  Bottom line:  Desktops will last.  Laptops don't have a long "lap" time.  Just my opinion.  I have been wrong  :D

[SwampDonkey]

Been buying Toshiba laptops since 2000, have two, second bought in 2006. Both still work, the older one is too slow for today's programs. Some brands I won't mention, that would make good door stops, but are otherwise junk. ;D

[Sonofman]

Electrical Engineer doing HVAC control systems in Industrial and Commercial applications. Windows based PC's. I have one company owned work laptop, and two desktops and one laptop that I own. All are Windows machines.

The decision for which to use does depend somewhat on what will be done with them and what software is needed.

[lowpolyjoe]

1.  Software engineer / Researcher

2.  I primarily use Windows but port software to Linux as required for customers who don't want to pay for Windows licensing. 


I love my iPhone but despise Apple in general.  Their computers are ridiculously overpriced if you ask me and their hardware is sometimes one or two generations behind PCs because they have rigid release schedules.  Might be cheaper if buying in bulk for a school since I think they were all about education back in the day, I don't know.

One big gripe I have with apple, which may have changed over time, is that software is a little limited.  If you need a free software package and go to downloads.com or the like and search for something, you'll probably find a thousand free PC apps that do what you need, but might not find any mac apps.  That was my experience anyway when I bought a mac for iphone app development a few years ago

I think the old "no viruses on macs" argument is out the window since there are finally enough people using macs to make them worth attacking. 

I played with Windows8 briefly in a store and it was kind of annoying, so that might be a drawback.  Maybe there are still "downgrade to Windows7" options?  Win7 is pretty good

[clearcut]

Remember the original question was about Mac or PC for a school. I hear the same arguments time and time again about Macs are more expensive, and have no software, and are about to get viruses, mostly from people who

despise Apple in general.

I don't understand. It's technology, find a device that meets your needs, at a price you can afford, one that you can live within its limitations ,and buy that one. Use current information to make an informed choice.

Their computers are ridiculously overpriced

A current Mac mini for education is listed at $579. Lower prices on large bulk purchases could likely be negotiated. The least expensive PC with similar specs, though with a less powerful graphics card, I could find was listed at $476. Then to make the comparison fair, you should add the least expensive current version of MS Office (Student and Home edition) so add an additional $119. Remember the Mac ships with iWork and iLife free. Updating to the latest Mac OS Mavericks is free. Update Windows 8.1  for $69 for students and $99 for Pro.

I think the old "no viruses on macs" argument is out the window

Oh yes don't forget your subscription to an anti-virus program. I have been running Macs for over twenty years without ever having a malware infection of any kind, using only the built in security and common sense. To infect a Mac, you have to intentionally run the malware, type in your administrator password, even if you are logged in as administrator, then dismiss the warning that this can do bad things. I have spent many hours helping friends clean their computers of all sorts of infections, many of which were acquired by simply clicking on a malicious link. I suggest you look up CryptoLocker (Windows only), and then make sure you have a current back-up. Time Machine is built into the Mac OS.

One big gripe I have with apple, which may have changed over time, is that software is a little limited.

With the exception of proprietary and a few very specific programs (NED-2 is one example that affects the forestry community) there is an abundance of Mac software both free and paid that can do just anything a Windows PC can do. If you use the Mac App store, the software will automatically update. Of course a Mac can boot into Windows if necessary, and there are applications like Parallels and VMware that run Windows applications in a window under the Mac OS. The other big piece missing is Arc-GIS, though there are free and commercial packages that work well.

Let's not forget about Patch Tuesday, that lovely day where the Windows box requires 20 minutes to several hours to install Important Security Updates, often requiring several reboots that need someone to log in each reboot. My Mac tells me when an update is available. Only in about 1 in 5 times is a reboot required, and it warns you before you begin the process.

One thing I never see considered is the support you can get from the Mac community. Because there are limited machine configurations, when you do run into a problem, and yes Macs get problems too, the online community is very helpful. Someone else has had your issue, likely found a solution, and is willing to help. That is addition to the 1 year of AppleCare hardware and software technical support that is included with every new Mac.

The Mac OS is an excellent choice for an educational environment, especially one with limited system administrative resources. If you have a talented system administrator, the Windows platform can perform very well. Linux is a great choice especially if you have to scrimp on equipment and software cost, but again you need someone to maintain the system.

[lowpolyjoe]

Perhaps I shouldn't say I "despise Apple"  :D - it's a harsh statement. But the attitude of many Apple users I know bothers me sometimes, as did Apple's attack ads on PCs a while back (although some were pretty funny).  I often get an elitist vibe from Apple users and they aggressively defend the brand as if I was launching a personal attack against them when I say I prefer a PC.

At the risk of perpetuation the feud and getting this thread locked, I will address some important points that were raised.  I hope this will not be taken as an attack - i'm just clarifying the points i made earlier and elaborating wrt my personal experience

Apple seems to favor form over function sometimes and I'm not a fan.  The "min/max/restore/close" buttons on Windows are fairly straight forward, though muddled somewhat recently.  The randomly colored buttons in the Mac apps puzzle me to this day.  The "Maximize" functionality doesn't always make apps full screen and seems non standard across apps, "Close" doesn't quit the app (except when it does) and you could (until fairly recently) only resize your windows from one location!?!  These things seem silly to me.


Prices may not be as different at the educational level as the general consumer level.  If I look for a deal for a computer for myself, I will almost always find nearly twice the hardware in a PC for a price comparable to a Mac because they never have deals except on outdated models. That said, $579 vs $476 is nearly a 20% difference, which is pretty significant in my book.  Also no mouse or keyboard with a Mac mini last time i checked, so add about $100 if you want the Mac accessories and then there's a 30% cost difference.  If the video cards aren't comparable, then I will grant the above is not really a fair comparison, but would not bundle Office into the mix since OpenOffice and other options are freely available.  I see machines still shipping with Win7 and there is no need to update to Win8 - Win7 is preferred if you ask me.  In the past, Mac updates were not free -  I don't know if they claim all future updates will be.  Last year I tried to update my Mac Mini and it appeared they wanted me to update in TWO STEPS and PAY FOR BOTH.  I believe it's too old to update to the newest OS, but it doesn't matter because I retired the thing.

Regarding virus issues.  I have run virus software on and off for the past 20 years and I believe I've gotten 1 virus in that entire time.  I completely agree that responsible usage is key.  Unfortunately, that is not something you can count on, especially if it's not a user's personal computer - ie. they don't care what happens to it.  I would expect a school to run virus software regardless which road they go.  There are free versions for PC and Mac (I think).

Windows updates are annoying as anything.  But I laughed myself silly when my Mac mini wanted to run updates almost as frequently as my PC.  At least once every week or two...  iTunes alone wants to update practically on a weekly basis.   I don't recall how often a reboot was required on my Mac so I can't comment.  My Mac also crashed/hung from time to time, so my buddies claiming that never happens are full of it. 



I will concede a couple of things though

If the App Store for Mac software has come half as far along as the iPhone version, then software selection is probably a lot better than I remember.  I have written and published software for iOS and Windows.   Windows is completely open and I didn't have to pay to post my programs on download sites to share with others.  iOS publishing requires a license fee and I *think* Mac software has the same issue.  iOS software is censored by Apple.  I'm not sure if Mac software has the same issue.  It could be argued that quality control and malware protection through software publishing restrictions is a good thing.  But that's not what i'm about.

PC tech support is a frightening prospect.  Macs may have it better due to the limited configurations, but I never used their tech support so I don't know.  I'm also unclear if you have to purchase an "Apple Care" subscription to use their tech support, which would be a serious bummer.

I'm not a PC apologist!  I hate PCs  :D :D :D :D :D.  I work at one every day and I hate them.  They are annoying and flaky and slow for no reason sometimes and require constant updates and careful use when online, etc...   But I still prefer them to Macs.

[SwampDonkey]

I see no advantage of buying a computer and boot it in a non native OS to run software I need. All that amounts to is saying, 'look what I can do'. So what? I can buy a PC and never need to emulate someone else. There is no longer any unique program to the Mac, that can't be done on a PC with same or equivalent software. Many programs abandoned the Mac over the years to move to a larger customer base on the PC. I saw lots of PC bashing from other computer platforms over the years and they are pretty much extinct or a few users playing around on antique hardware.

[clearcut]

I am sorry if my response sounded like an attack. I was reluctant to post on this subject because PC vs. Mac is likely to end in a feud.  I was responding to the original question of PC or Mac in a school setting. My opinion is that the Mac has distinct advantages in that setting. Being able to run both Mac OS and Windows is one of those advantages. I felt some of the other posts had outdated and clearly incorrect information and I wanted to provide an accurate and verifiable response.

Running Windows on a Mac is not done in emulation, modern Macs use Intel processors just like any PC. While you can create a Macintosh (Hackintosh) out of a PC, it is much more challenging unifying the hardware and software, than creating a bootable Windows partition on a Mac. Windows will run natively on a modern Mac. The same machine can be a fully functioning Mac, or Windows machine. I consider that flexibility an advantage in a educational setting.

Lowpolyjoe does not like the Mac interface, but I find it much more consistent across all applications than in Windows. A consistent interface in my opinion is easier to teach and is easier for students to master.

The Red X button closes the window. If the application has only one window it quits the app.
The Orange - button minimizes the window to the dock, click on the apps icon in the dock to restore it.
The Green + button Toggles through maximize the window vertically, minimize to the smallest that the user has established, maximize it to the largest the user has established.

That is consistent within apps and across apps.

I added in Microsoft Office because new Macs ship with comparable quality software: iWork and iLife. OpenOffice and LibreOffice are available on all platforms are are great alternatives to both Microsoft and Mac OS productivity suites. In my opinion the iWork and iLife suites are easier to use and easier for students to learn. My kids (9 and 11) strongly prefer to use the Mac software over both MS Office applications and LibreOffice. I prefer that they use the old XP machine that I set up for them. They are not allowed to use Mommy's laptop. They often draft their projects on the PC and add formatting and images on the Mac mini using Pages.

The Windows PC I sourced (on NewEgg) did not include a keyboard or mouse. Any USB or Bluetooth keyboard or mouse will work on the Mac mini. That is a wash.

In selecting Windows 8.1 and Mavericks, those are the most recent operating systems for their respective platforms. The update to Mavericks from Mountain Lion is free. Windows 7 - 8.1 is not. Updating from Snow Leopard to Mountain Lion was $29. If your Mac supported it (older Minis like mine do not) you could update directly from Tiger to Mountain Lion for the $29.

AppleCare technical support is free for the first 90 days, the hardware is warrantied for 1 year. You can extend the tech support and hardware warranty to 3 years for an additional fee ($149 for a Mac mini).

As for pricing, buying a Mac for any student (K-college), qualifies for the educational pricing. As far as I know there is no verification of student status on-line. A student ID may be required in the Apple Store. Refurbished machines, both older and current models when available, have the same AppleCare warranty as new Macs. Apple in the past has supported education and I believe they will negotiate pricing on a larger order. It is worth asking.

When a new operating system is released or a security issue is raised, my Mac may update several times over the next few weeks, and then it is generally quiet. Rarely do I have to reboot for these updates, they just work. I can usually continue working while these updates are being applied.  Sometimes an application like iTunes will update to support a new iPhone or iPad, and then there will be a couple of bug fixes over the next few weeks. Again rarely do they include a reboot. I can not remember a Windows Patch Tuesday that did not include at least 4 Important updates and at least 1 reboot. I have seen as many as 33 Important Windows updates and have spent several hours updating Windows software. My wife's office requires that we install all Important Windows updates before she can telecommute.

I'm taking off my Blue T-Shirt now.

[SwampDonkey]

It's emulating the PC, because windows is not the native OS. There are different methods to emulate: one is transcription to emulate the CPU (slow), and another method is to use the same CPU. In days gone by, the older Macs had 68xxx processors, so did Commodore's Amiga. With Shapeshifter, you could turn an Amiga into a Mac with either dedicated HD or partition, could use the floppy drive because it could read disks from PC, MAC and the native OS, use zip and jaz drives on SCSI, had sound and graphics (my machine used a 32 bit video card) that worked the same and if you wanted could install a card for Appletalk.

Using the same CPU and similar hardware to emulate is nothing new, could do it 16 years ago on this very machine.

Booting into MacOS 7.6.1 on Amiga


Running Photoshop 4 under Mac OS on the Amiga



I'm really not arguing about anything, I'm just discussing the why's and where-fores. And see no real need for a Mac. It exists, it's a choice, so be it. ;D

And my Amiga still works.

[woodsteach]

Thank you all for the great discussion and information.  Who knows what the powers that be will decide,  I just wanted to get some information.  In my area we teach cad, using Sketchup,(Me),  and Design Cad (other instructor).  Might have to go back to AutoCad if we go with the MAC's, is what I'm told. 

Thank you

[clearcut]

According to Apple, the Mac can either emulate Windows using the Intel processor and appropriate software (Parallels VMware) running as a window in the Mac OS, and yes there is a performance hit. Or you can boot natively into a Windows 7 or 8 using Boot Camp which provides the drivers for the Mac specific hardware, but is otherwise a fully native Windows environment. You would be running Windows but not Mac OS until a reboot. It should run as well as any other Windows PC.

In both cases you need to supply a licensed copy of Windows and any Windows software.

You can apparently install Windows only on a Mac without Boot Camp or Mac OS, but then you have to manually download and  install drivers and such, but there really is no point.

The Amiga was an outstanding machine for its time. Incredible graphics and sound for such an early machine.

My 40 year old DEC Rainbow still runs also. 128K of memory, 4 of the "new" 5 1/4" 360K floppy drives. CP/M

[SwampDonkey]

Yes, I still have some working C< 128's and a stack of working drives also have the CP/M disks. ;D Those drives were actually programmable and not dummy drives, so you were able to read DOS and CP/M to. GEOS was a bit late coming (was taken a lot further on PC machines), so the software was pretty basic. But included a publishing program many users at least could produce newsletters and bulletins.  AH, the early days. :D

[doctorb]

I switched my home PC to iMac last year. 

Conversion with some commands hard for a while, now seamless.  Just like any new program the user defaults to his/her old way of doing things, over and over again, until you figure out what works on your new system.

I enjoy the Mac better than I did the PC, except that it does not run Quicken.  There are work arounds for all of that, including Quicken, but it's extra set-up time.  I love the large screen.  Kids watch DVD's on this computer as a "second TV"  their school computers are Mac laptops, so they can help me with any issue I could have, but i haven't had any.  Seems very reliable and "clean" to run.

There's a lot of people who are die-hards for either side, like Chevy or Ford.  I'm happy, and if I bought a new computer, it would be a Mac.  No viruses.

[giant splinter]

I always find that it is easy to agree with DoctorB, I to am happy with my Mac equipment and if anyone has any doubt about how the Mac line of Apple products is priced,sold,supported,backed up or how you get help when you need it, just go visit an apple store and see for themselves how Apple stores work and how well they take care of their customers as well as anyone who walks through the door even to just look around. Eves drop in on a scheduled workshop and you will find out how the store and Mac owners work together to insure you get the most out of your new equipment. In todays competitive environment with any product you purchase you need quality service and support to keep things working properly and keep you happy.

On the Chevy V/S Ford thing I ( GAVE UP ) when I realized that the majority of Ford 1920's through 1940's street rods have Chevy engines in them, though the Ford powered ones are out there, the availability of custom parts and upgrades for the Chevy engines and transmissions is higher. The Ford 8" and 9" rear ends are still widely used.  ;D

[SwampDonkey]

There's no Apple store within 100's of miles from here. However, there is a Staples in every town where I buy my laptops. Never had any troubles. 

[Warbird]

I see no advantage of buying a computer and boot it in a non native OS to run software I need. All that amounts to is saying, 'look what I can do'. So what? I can buy a PC and never need to emulate someone else. There is no longer any unique program to the Mac, that can't be done on a PC with same or equivalent software. Many programs abandoned the Mac over the years to move to a larger customer base on the PC. I saw lots of PC bashing from other computer platforms over the years and they are pretty much extinct or a few users playing around on antique hardware.

I disagree.  From the Unix perspective, there are amazing things I can do via CLI that I cannot do from Windows.  Even when running Putty, WinSCP, or what have you.  There is a lot to be said for cron jobs, scripting, etc.  In the Windows world, you have to install a bunch of extra stuff and even then, the stable, long-term functionality simply isn't there.  With Unix/Linux, it's native.

As for emulating another OS, again, I disagree.  I need to run *nix natively and I need to be able to run Windows on a case-by-case basis.  VM's are a very easy, cheap, and straight-forward way of accomplishing this.  This works either direction - you can always run a Windows PC and VM OS X or another *nix OS to accomplish the same thing.  I did this for a few years.  However, there are stability issues with Windows.  Period.

All of that said, my team runs systems supporting services for 10's of thousands of people.  Our needs are much different and more stringent than the average user.  Windows has it's place in our environment and we have a separate team for supporting those servers.  It should be noted that large Enterprise level applications are moving (or suggesting the move) away from Windows servers.  Banner XE is a perfect example.

Truth is, it's all a case-by-case decision.  Which is why I asked the OP a bunch of questions.  I don't advocate one OS over another just because it makes me feel better.  It's all about what you need to accomplish and how stable you want the solution to be.

[SwampDonkey]

Those kids at school and majority of people at home aren't going to do what your doing at work. Just looking at the vast majority of systems for the home user will indicate Windows is the top choice. I'm part of that majority and have no need for anything else. If you want to do other things then you have the other options available. Kinda like sawing lumber, there are large volumes of 'lumber' and then there is the niche stuff.  I usually just use 'lumber', call me boring. But watch what I can do with it. :D ;)