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Hot water woes

Started by monkeyratmom, November 03, 2013, 06:37:43 PM

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monkeyratmom

We are heating our hot water through a side-arm heat exchanger, we have a 40+ gallon tank, but it is not heating properly and we barely get enough hot water for one shower or bath. This is a new setup, and if we don't figure out what's wrong I am likely to be murdered by my daughter, who always seems to be the one to get the cold shower.  I have checked for air and obstructions as best I can, water appears to be circulating properly through the side-arm, but the water just is not getting hot enough.  It should pretty much scald me when I release it from the pressure relief valve, but it doesn't.  Our OWB stays hot, we haven't let it go out, and nobody takes long showers or super deep baths.  The mixing valve is set to as hot as it will allow, but the water is not getting hot enough before it gets to that point!  :'(

It was my idea to get rid of our electric water heater and go to this method, but I am really getting flak from the family.  We also have a roommate who just moved in and this is rather embarrassing.  I am just glad she is being understanding about it!
Home Security telemarketer:  Hi, we are offering free installation in your area through the end of the month, and we would . . .
Me, interrupting:  We have dogs and guns, we're good.

NWP

The side arm may not be at the proper angle to allow the water in the tank to circulate through it.  It should circulate through the sidearm by itself as it warms.  Mine had the same problem.  I ended up putting a small circulator pump on the bottom pipe of the sidearm near where it comes out of the tank.  I just run it all the time and I have a tankful of HOT water.  I don't have a mixing valve.  You can see the pump at the bottom in this picture.



 
1999 Blockbuster 2222, 1997 Duratech HD10, 2021 Kubota SVL97-2, 2011 Case SV250, 2000 Case 1845C, 2004 Case 621D, John Deere 540A, 2011 Freightliner with Prentice 120C, 2012 Chevrolet, 1997 GMC bucket truck, several trailers, and Stihl saws.

Ohiowood

Did you try opening the bottom valve ?  I heard sometimes they get plugged with sediment.
If it's full you will see some white and yellow junk come out.   

Full Chisel

First get rid of the extra room mate. If your system is flow calibrated and everything sized correctly including the mixing valve it should heat the dhw supply this time of year with the element switched off. Ratmom, is your sidearm exchanger the first in the loop or does it heat the air and then loop to the Side Arm? If the heat is getting scavenged off by the water-to-air exchanger first, it may never heat the domestic tank sufficiently.
Jed: Jethro, how's come they ain't no ice in Kali Forni-a?

Jethro: Don't look at me Uncle Jed. I didn't take it.

upsnake

While getting the side arm working correctly would be good, if you really want to never run out of hot water put a small 10 plate hx in. :)

But really I hope you get it going, I don't have a side arm (had one from the dealer and sent back to get the plate instead), so I can't do much but wish you luck.

mrcaptainbob

I had the same issue with a new 40G heater and new sidearm heat exchanger. Although the exchanger was way too hot to touch, the tank water was just at the 'warm' level. I insulated the exchanger with double layer of black foam pipe insulation and now the hot water is HOT!

monkeyratmom

I will try insulating the side-arm; it's pretty hot, but I think it should be hotter, especially since it is the first stop from the boiler.  I should be burning myself on it, I think.

If I need to get a little pump, what should I order?
Home Security telemarketer:  Hi, we are offering free installation in your area through the end of the month, and we would . . .
Me, interrupting:  We have dogs and guns, we're good.

r.man

Any chances of a few pictures of your setup. A normal side arm should produce a full tank of over hot water in a reasonable time with out a pump. Sounds like you still have a physical problem but it is hard to trouble shoot without visuals. How close is the side arm to the tank and have you double checked the mixing valve piping.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

monkeyratmom

I am thinking about changing out my side-arm hx for a plate style.  My dealer will sell me a 30 for $225 which includes shipping.  A little pump would be cheaper but I think a plate is the better idea, I don't think I have enough room for the pump where I want to put it.  I did insulate around all the exposed pipes and side-arm and it helped raise the temperature some, but did not solve the problem of running out of hot water too soon.  I have a friend who can do the labor for free, well actually a credit against the money he owes me so at least I don't have to worry about that.

Is that a good price? Any other advice or thoughts?
Home Security telemarketer:  Hi, we are offering free installation in your area through the end of the month, and we would . . .
Me, interrupting:  We have dogs and guns, we're good.

r.man

Sidearms are old proven tech, if it is not working for you there is some other problem which may carry over to a plate exchanger if all you do is swap them. It is my opinion that you should fix the system you have since that would be the cheapest. I recently saw a new system that wasn't working and even after taking it apart everything looked ok. We ended up piping it through the pressure relief fitting and the drain fitting and that fixed it. For some reason the hot water fitting wasn't allowing circulation. Pictures would help.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

upsnake

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Plate-Brazed-Heat-Exchanger-Home-Heating-Boiler-/260358062461?nma=true&si=xADTP6ec38Bx31%252FFQ4Oq76E6zWc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

This is the plate I have, it is just a little 10 plate, and it heats the water fine, roughly 130 -140  into the tank. It handles a shower and dishwasher, or two shower etc fine.

And it is like 45 dollars. :) I have not tried a bigger hx for dhw, so i am not sure how much better they would work, but the 10 does everything i ask of it never have ran out or had lukewarm water from it. :)

Old Forester

We have CB 5036, not that that makes any difference and we have had the system for 7 heating season.  We have had the side arm hot water system from the beginning and when we started and it worked well for several season, but it gradually stopped working.  Have flushed hot water tank many times and it hasn't made any difference.  Our system was installed by the dealer and was as per CB recommended installation. (dealer has retired and have no one close now)

Long story short, I visited with a dealer recently and his explanation was the hot water line that recirculates our domestic hot water is plugged/limed up and will not let the water circulate.  The dealers solution was to drain the hot water tank and  unhook the domestic system and run a rod or pipe through the system or use acid through the disconnected system to remove the lime/build up from the system and then re-assemble the system.  Dealer suggest putting a "T" to be able to get a rod down through pipe to unplug it without having  drain the hot water tank and system.

This makes some sense but have not tried to do anything yet.

Has anyone else found this to be a solution???

Holmes

 I'm with r.man on this one.. Some hot water tanks have little rubber check flappers or ball check in the top nipple in the tank to keep the heated water in the tank.  These do not allow thermal migration, this would make your system not work. Putting in a circulator should solve the problem,. A flat plate exchanger could be worse than what you have, it should have a circulator.
Think like a farmer.

albirk

Old Forester I have seen that happen I took the side arm off but left the pex hooked up and ran a rod thru the side arm but you want to start with a small rod and work bigger that way you will not plug it tight with the lime build up. The one I cleaned was so bad the ball valve was so full of lime the guy broke stem were it hooked to the ball that is what I went to fix and then found the plugged side arm it was about 5 years old

r.man

Old forester my friend up the road has the oldest sidearm I know of and it quit working last year. He had to clean one of the fittings feeding it and that fixed it right up. I am thinking that unions on the top and bottom would be a good idea. You would have to drain the hot water tank, unless you also put in isolating ball valves, but it would not be a big deal for most systems.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

David-L


I installed my side arm seven years ago with no pump and it worked fine until recently when we were noticing a difference in the hot water availability. closed the mixing valve down a bit thinking to much cold was coming in and that did not do it. Thanks to the forum I am going to isolate and take off the side arm and inspect and probably clean it as per other folks on the forum. Thanks all.

                                                   David l
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

r.man

David, it is possible that it is the tank too. I know of two tanks in my area that get very large amounts of scale in them. One is my brothers and to replace the bottom electric element I had to dig out scale from the bottom of the tank. Manufacturers recommend that a gallon or so of water is bled off the drain on the tank once a year to try to counteract build up of solids of any sort and while most people are wasting a bit of time doing that some are helping their systems.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

monkeyratmom

Here are some pictures.  Dealer said he thought it would be either air or sediment, but I just went down to check and no air, system is too new to have sediment.  We just started using it in November.  Our water is county, not well, so should not have sediment issue for many years, I would hope.

Unrelated side note:  I have my posts set to notify, but I don't get the emails.  Email address has not changed.

 

  

 
Home Security telemarketer:  Hi, we are offering free installation in your area through the end of the month, and we would . . .
Me, interrupting:  We have dogs and guns, we're good.

Shotgun

Quote from: monkeyratmom on January 11, 2014, 03:47:59 PM

Unrelated side note:  I have my posts set to notify, but I don't get the emails.  Email address has not changed.

 

  

 

This will no doubt be lost in the shuffle here.  My suggestion would be to post this in "Behind the forum" section, or in a PM to Jeff, the site owner, the chief administrator, the chief bottle washer, da Boss, and truly the Forestry Forum one-and-all.
Joined The Forestry Forum 5 days before 9/11.

albirk

It looks like the inlet to the side arm is lower then your drain were it is hooked up you may need to make a shorter side arm or install a pump to move the water thru your side arm

doctorb

I have just a small plate exchanger connected to the DHW flow to the boiler, i.e., no hot water tank at all.  We never run out of hot water when the OWB is turned on, never.  And it's really hot.  (Wife, 2 daughters, laundry, kitchen, the whole nine yards.) 
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

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