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When to use a forester?

Started by Hale87, November 01, 2013, 07:35:30 PM

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Hale87

About five years ago I had a logger look at my small amount of timber. At that time he thought my "cut" would be maybe 7 or 8 grd. Considering it wasn't worth that much I decided to wait. Well now I would like to buy a bigger and better bandmill so I'm back to considering it, plus timber is up a little here in PA. So I called 3 different loggers 3 weeks ago, and so far only one has had the time to come look at it. He claims on a 45% cut for me and  the rest to him that I have at least 15grd and maybe as much as 20grd. This guy has a very good reputation plus I was buyin what he was selling as to select cutting. So now that the value of the timber is  up, I was thinking about getting a forester, but I have no clue how it works or if it would be worth it? My timber is on 60 acres of mountain ground and for the most part spread all over, because it was logged off in 1990 I believe. There are areas where it's steep that have never been logged, then other areas that look like it was clear cut. Considering it is steep and spread out my cut was lower than usual. Last time I had someone cut another property I received 60%. So there's the question, when do you need a forester and how does it normally work? Thanks
2002 LT40HD sawmill, WM single blade edger, 23hp Kubota tractor, 2011 Kawasaki Mule, 2002 Honda Foreman, 1983 Case 480D backhoe

KBforester

Each forester will charge for services differently. It's not uncommon for the forester to take a percentage of the harvest, especially if he holds the contracts with the mills. Personally, I charge by the hour, and put a cap on my time if the landowner has financial concerns about my time running high. I'm not a fan of foresters havering motive cut more, or more of a product he makes out better with, when that might not be in the forest's( or the landowner's) best interest. I've charged by the acre at times, but that gets tricky.

Strictly regarding present day finances: with high value timber I'd say using a forester can pay for itself. In lower value (heavy pulp) stands... not quite so much.
For quality, and planning for the future: No exceptions, get a forester. I've met lots of loggers who know how to do a beautiful cut, but have no idea what that cut will do to influence the future productivity, regeneration, and product output. It's always about right now. Though frankly... most landowners I talk to are like that too...
Trees are good.

Ken

Although the idea of a forester helping landowners make decisions and oversee a harvest is very rare here I would suggest that you need a forester when you know what you want from your forest but don't know how to get there.  What are your long term objectives for the property?
Lots of toys for working in the bush

Hale87

Long term objectives? Never really gave it any thought. I purchased it because I always wanted a little acreage with a cabin. The timber is a bonus. Of course going forward I would hope to manage it with another harvest coming at some point. The property is relatively steep so a year might go by without me even seeing that part of the woods.  Point is I'm not adverse to seeing stumps as long as they don't surround my cabin.
2002 LT40HD sawmill, WM single blade edger, 23hp Kubota tractor, 2011 Kawasaki Mule, 2002 Honda Foreman, 1983 Case 480D backhoe

RCBS

Very happy with the results of our last cut using a forester.  Had a well prepared contract,  toured the tract with me to assess our expectations and provided insight as to what to harvest, what not to, and why, cruised and  marked the timber, secured a bond with the buyer, marketed the timber and completed the job to specifications.  His fee was 10% of the sale value, but overall he added 40% to the selling price between highest and second highest bids by having a large portfolio of buyers. 

My one and only gripe with the job was the cutting crew.  Overall a good job, but too much residual damage.  My next contract will include provisions regarding excessive damage on the leavers.  In defense of the cutters, the terrain is pretty rugged with lots of 40% hills and valleys.  I feel a good portion could have been prevented with some corner poles on the skid trails.  The job was completed using one large Cat cable skidder and a D6 Cat longtrack with a custom winch tower on the rear.  No forwarders as it was a tree length skid and sale.  42ac select cutting of mixed hardwood with Red oak dominating the log count.

Thinking of releasing another 35-40 acres in the next year, but first I am going to call my forester and see what he thinks.   smiley_thumbsup
Echo CS-3400, 550xp, Jonsered 2166, L3130 Kubota, '78 JD 300 backhoe, Kubota RTV900, JD2305, lots of sharp stuff and several firearms

gspren

  I used a Forester after hearing stories about some unhappy land owners after dealing with the logger direct. I now believe the less you know the more you need a GOOD Forester as I'm sure not all foresters are equal. The forester I selected after talking with 3 asked me the right questions such as what do I want it to look like when the cuttings done and how many years before another cut. Depending on where you are in PA I can recommend the forester that I used, send a PM if interested.
Stihl 041, 044 & 261, Kubota 400 RTV, Kubota BX 2670, Ferris Zero turn

RCBS

Quote from: gspren on November 01, 2013, 10:00:39 PM
  I used a Forester after hearing stories about some unhappy land owners after dealing with the logger direct. I now believe the less you know the more you need a GOOD Forester as I'm sure not all foresters are equal. The forester I selected after talking with 3 asked me the right questions such as what do I want it to look like when the cuttings done and how many years before another cut. Depending on where you are in PA I can recommend the forester that I used, send a PM if interested.

Even if you are somewhat knowledgeable about your woodlot or forest, there's still a place for a forester.  I have zero people I know personally I could try to sell my timber to, where my forester solicits two dozen or more for a large sale.  That alone is worth the fee.  Not to mention that all I really had to do was make two signatures: one on the conract, and one on the check....which was cashed before the first saw ever fired up. 

I'm sure that there are some unsatisfactory dealings with foresters, but for my experiences I can't recommend their services enough.

Also!  There may be a "free" forester available to help you.  Get ahold of your local soil and water dept, state division of forestry or county farm office.  All great places for information/assistance if available in your area.
Echo CS-3400, 550xp, Jonsered 2166, L3130 Kubota, '78 JD 300 backhoe, Kubota RTV900, JD2305, lots of sharp stuff and several firearms

ga jones

45percent to you is low. If the ground is very hard to access and the timber is of low quality it may be a fair bid.Try some other loggers. Where's the guy that gave you 60/40?were you happy with his work?if he's to far away he may know someone in the area.market vicinity can play a roll in it also.
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars d31 komatsu 350 tj grapple

Clark

Knowing what is going to be left and how it will grow should be an equal consideration to how much money will I get and how or what will be cut.  Long after the logger has moved on and the money you received is spent you will be left with this piece of land. It's future growing potential (and ability to make you money) is directly affected by the previous cut. Most loggers that I know can't tell you what is best to leave for future productivity and can't tell you how the land will respond.

Point is that you should seriously consider hiring a forester, they can answer all your questions and tell you exactly what will happen in the future.

Regarding KB's concerns over foresters who take a % of the stumpage: A smart forester would rather have a happy customer who's likely to recommend him to others and whom he may do another harvest for in 10-20 years rather then rape and pillage the land.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

ga jones

It's very disheartening to see so many people here have no faith in a loggers ability to manage forests.. Loggers aren't uneducated people . There are plenty of loggers with forestry degrees.loggers need to be able to go back and harvest again and again.. loggers have there markets well established for maximum benefit.you want a lump some from a giant mill or logging operation at a slashed price, for sitting on there money. Or make the maximum amount at a slower pace as the logger cuts?this is Appalachian  hard wood country cut and skid, many  one man operations. Easy on the forest floor ,minimum damage to remaining understory. I read  statements here made about loggers ability to buck and market timber.i average 65 to 70 cents a board foot. Mixed species hardwood.
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars d31 komatsu 350 tj grapple

thecfarm

I would not let a logger on my land that did know how to buck trees and cut for future growth. The logger I have we walk around each time he cuts here to see where I want cut and why. Sometimes he agrees with certain areas and sometimes points out other areas that need some cutting. Trust is really the key word. I do alot of cutting in some areas and I feel I am doing the right thing.This logger has cut many places that was run by a forester. After a while,a good logger should learn something from each site marked by a forester.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

ga jones

Quote from: thecfarm on November 06, 2013, 01:38:37 PM
I would not let a logger on my land that did know how to buck trees and cut for future growth. The logger I have we walk around each time he cuts here to see where I want cut and why. Sometimes he agrees with certain areas and sometimes points out other areas that need some cutting. Trust is really the key word. I do alot of cutting in some areas and I feel I am doing the right thing.This logger has cut many places that was run by a forester. After a while,a good logger should learn something from each site marked by a forester.
. Well put!
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars d31 komatsu 350 tj grapple

RCBS

Quote from: ga jones on November 06, 2013, 01:19:30 PM
It's very disheartening to see so many people here have no faith in a loggers ability to manage forests.. Loggers aren't uneducated people . There are plenty of loggers with forestry degrees.loggers need to be able to go back and harvest again and again.. loggers have there markets well established for maximum benefit.you want a lump some from a giant mill or logging operation at a slashed price, for sitting on there money. Or make the maximum amount at a slower pace as the logger cuts?this is Appalachian  hard wood country cut and skid, many  one man operations. Easy on the forest floor ,minimum damage to remaining understory. I read  statements here made about loggers ability to buck and market timber.i average 65 to 70 cents a board foot. Mixed species hardwood.

For me it's not so much doubts of ability, but rather having a go between for myself and the logging operation.  I tell my forester what I want and how I want it carried out, and he makes sure that happens while I am at work.  The service aspect is just as important to me as the management aspect.  I am sure that many loggers are proficient in forest management practices, BMPs and timber marketing. 

Admittedly, I carry a bit of a grudge against loggers in general in regards to business dealings...but with good reason.  Victim of two timber trespasses in the last 25 years, one of them quite substantial and blatant.  I know this doesn't represent everyone out there in the woods, but it does happen...and in cases like mine...much too often.  I work in industrial distribution and we have Loggers in occasionally to buy supplies.  One day, I overheard a conversation between one of our employees and a customer who operates his own outfit.  The subject of timber trespass was being discussed and the logger blurts "...any logger worth a *stuff would've covered those stumps with dirt and no one would be the wiser....".  Maybe it's just my area, but it seems hard to find a reputable outfit.  I once contacted a local man to take down a Pin Oak about 4' in diameter on a 50/50 split.  Beautiful tree in a bad spot in the yard, so it had to go.   Long story short....I had to harass the logger for my side of the payment two months later and when I received the invoice from the mill, it listed a *red oak of much smaller size.  Again...I do carry bias, but not without reason.   

Hmmm...got a bit off topic there.  Anyways....my experience using a forester was excellent and I will continue to recommend their services to others.

Echo CS-3400, 550xp, Jonsered 2166, L3130 Kubota, '78 JD 300 backhoe, Kubota RTV900, JD2305, lots of sharp stuff and several firearms

thecfarm

RCBS,I use to know some loggers like that. I wouldn't even let them walk on my land,let alone cut wood on it.
Covering the stumps with dirt would not work for me. There has to be limbs,twitch trail,something left behind to tell me something is not right. I've had land cut on all sides of me. Mine land is very well marked. I would always approach them to make sure they knew where the lines was. I had some very nice pine and I wanted to keep it too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

RCBS

Quote from: thecfarm on November 06, 2013, 02:58:05 PM
RCBS,I use to know some loggers like that. I wouldn't even let them walk on my land,let alone cut wood on it.
Covering the stumps with dirt would not wprk for me. There has to be limbs,twitch trail,something left behind to tell me something is not right. I've had land cut on all sides of me. Mine land is very well marked. I would always approach them to make sure thjey knew where the lines was. I had some very nice pine and I wanted to keep it too.

I dont want to come off like every logging outfit is bad.  I actually enjoy watching them work immensely and am jealous of their saw handling skills.  I just have not had much in the way of good experiences thus far.

The theft that went to court was a nightmare.  Landowner who had the cut done signed for most of the liability in the "contract" he put his signature on.  Had to sue both parties.  Got a pittance from the cutters and a lien against the landowner.  The cutters had to have known they were over cutting.  Approximately 25 acres above and beyond the 40 that was supposed to be cut.  Took everything except the wolves down to about 16" dbh.

These days you would have to be Helen Keller to miss my boundaries!  Paint, signage, and tape.

   
Echo CS-3400, 550xp, Jonsered 2166, L3130 Kubota, '78 JD 300 backhoe, Kubota RTV900, JD2305, lots of sharp stuff and several firearms

Ron Wenrich

There's only a handful of foresters I would let on my property.  Same goes for the loggers.  In PA, you can use the moniker of forester without any problem.  There's no licensing in the state, so anyone can do it.  Pick your forester wisely.  The state has a list of them with degrees.  Some work for mills, some are consultants.  Sometimes you can't tell the difference between the two.  Get the list from DCNR and interview at least 3. 

He will charge a commission for the sale, which means he has a vested interest in the outcome, but also a vested interest in what's cut.  Good forest management often comes down to what you leave in the forest, not what you take out.  I don't like the commission side of things, but that's generally how timber is sold by consultants in PA.  At a minimum, I would have a forester mark the timber and give you the tally.  If you want to handle the sale on your own, you might save some bucks.  But, you will know what you're selling.  Right now, you have no idea and you are at a disadvantage.

For some reason, landowners and most foresters don't take a pre-sale inventory.  It doesn't take long from a forester's standpoint.  A day in the woods and a few hours on the computer for a property like yours.  Then, you have data and a map.  You know what timber you have by size class, species, and quality.  Then you can make an intelligent decision on what's to be taken out.  Its a management plan without the bells and whistles.  Doing it without an inventory is flying by the seat of your pants and practicing cookbook forestry.  But, that's my opinion.

Loggers could do the same, but rarely do.  They have an eye for merchantable timber.  In my area, most do either a diameter limit cut or do an economic clearcut.  Residuals are generally small trees that don't have much of a value and are supposed to be the next forest.  Low quality small trees grow into low quality large trees.   

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

treeslayer2003

Quote from: ga jones on November 06, 2013, 01:19:30 PM
It's very disheartening to see so many people here have no faith in a loggers ability to manage forests.. Loggers aren't uneducated people . There are plenty of loggers with forestry degrees.loggers need to be able to go back and harvest again and again.. loggers have there markets well established for maximum benefit.you want a lump some from a giant mill or logging operation at a slashed price, for sitting on there money. Or make the maximum amount at a slower pace as the logger cuts?this is Appalachian  hard wood country cut and skid, many  one man operations. Easy on the forest floor ,minimum damage to remaining understory. I read  statements here made about loggers ability to buck and market timber.i average 65 to 70 cents a board foot. Mixed species hardwood.
we have been managing some propertys for three generations, so yes loggers can be the answer and I agree with ga jones post. but as stated there is probably more that don't care than those of us that do. I have herd so many times, why do you care, you won't ever cut that again. well, if my father thought that way I wouldn't be cutting it now. it is a shame but most of us don't really manage or are so far in debt they have to produce and just can't take time. best advice is talk to many loggers and foresters to find the ones that fit what you want to do.

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