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Head Lift?

Started by newguy, May 19, 2004, 11:16:00 AM

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newguy

Anyone out there using a screw to lift the head on their mill?  I was planning to use a chain but my head keeps gettin' heavier.  I was just wondering if anyone was having good luck with a screw.

Thanks,

Craig
Still buildin', soon to run home brew cant. head

Rod


newguy

Are you powering yours or do you crank it by hand?  I thought about that but I am using a 12VDC motor to run my head up and down.
Still buildin', soon to run home brew cant. head

GF

I used 4 1" Acme threaded rods powerd by a hydraulic motor.  The head on mine is also very heavy, I actually lift the head, motor, hydraulic tank (17gallon) fuel tank (15 gallon), and a 4 cylinder Wisconsin Industrial engine that has a cast iron block and heads.  

These threaded rods can be purchased at http://www.mscdirect.com I used the alloy steel rods with stainless steel nuts.

newguy

GF,
Yeah, I was thinking about 1" acme 4 tpi for mine.  I only need one though.  I am building a cantelevered head so one in the center should do it.  Do you have any problems with sawdust binding up the nuts?

Craig
Still buildin', soon to run home brew cant. head

GF

So far I have not had any bind problems, MSC has about the best prices they have all different sizes of rods, I bought 6' alloy steel rods for $48 each, I would recommend the alloy over the standard steel.  The standard steel ones are about $18 for a 6ft X 1"

One might look at somehting like a shop vac hose, I know sears uses to have them where they woul collapse down to nothing, could use it around the rod to protect the threads and it would collapse as it went up and down.  One of the hoses on the vac I have is 6' and when I vacuum it likes to pull down, it will collapse down to about 6".  Just a thought.

D._Frederick

Newguy,

I have threaded rods on my LINN LUMBER carriage and have had no problem with them, I oil them with chainsaw bar oil twice a day. If you have to turn them by hand, you will be winded by the time you get the saw to the top. I have a 1/2hp gearmotor, so all I do is operate a switch.

If you are going to operate the lift by hand, you should figure out a counter balance system to off set the weight.

newguy

Thanks for the input guys. 8)

I will be using a 12VDC motor to drive the screw.

GF,

I really like the shop vac hose idea, I didn't even think of it.  I was looking at very expensive bellows covers in Mcmaster-Carr.  I think the hose would work great.  May wear out a little quicker but for the price I guess they can be replaced several times.  I'll check out MSC, the company I work for gets a pretty good discount with tem.

Thanks again,

Craig
Still buildin', soon to run home brew cant. head

Bibbyman

Newguy,  

Why would you want to build a cantilever head sawmill?  The popular wisdom says a four-poster with a pair of tracks is much easier to build.

I've built, modified, and cobbled a lot of things because I had to.  But I wouldn't think of building a sawmill.  They are a readily available commodity in all kinds of design types, sizes, price ranges from many companies that will stand behind their product with training, parts, tech support, etc.

Inquiring minds want to know.  (Or I'm just being nosey.)  ???
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

DanG

Why not?  FDH and Swampy built a cantilever head bandmill that compares to anything I've seen on the market. I'm thinkin' they have about $5k in it, plus their labor. I can't imagine the satisfaction they must feel when sawing on that mill! 8) 8)  Sounds like reason enough for me. :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

newguy

Bibbyman,

Well it's kind of a long story.  I'll give you the short version.  I have wanted to build one for quite some time, I looked at all kinds of different mills, talked to people and did lots of reading on this forum.  The cantilever style seemed like the best one for me.  I worked as a machinist for 12 years and did a fair amount of welding.  I work now as a custom machine designer for a local company.  I thought it would be a great challange to build one.  The biggest reason though, I will hopefully have a machine that would cost 10's of thousands of dollars for around 5K.  (I'm tight!)  :D
Still buildin', soon to run home brew cant. head

Bruce_A

Why would a person lift and haul scrap metal and other sorts of junque for very little money?  The same reason you would build a sawmill you do not need.  For the FUN of it.  :) :)

Buzz-sawyer

About the acme rods and nuts....several people and companies I know of have been through the trial and error with them wearing out...two suggestions to consider, use brass nuts as wearing surface and run the rods up and down in an oil bath....
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Fla._Deadheader

  From experience, if you let them Stainless nuts get dry, they will Gall, Gald, ?? and then ya got some REAL problems. We used steel nuts on our clamping screw. Ed welded 3 together, to give us LOTS of wear surface, and we just shoot drain oil on the screw once a day.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Bibbyman

Newguy,

Fair enough reason..  You're better equipped with experience and tools than most who take on such a project.  And experienced enough to figure in your design time, build time, debug time and materials at a market value rate,  it'd be a lot more than the "hard dollars" you have figured.

Seems like every project I take on requires about 4x the time than I figured and always hidden costs here and there and there is always the little reworks afterwards.  

When the nasty weather broke late last winter,  Mary and I took our two granddaughters on an "adventure".  We drove about and hour and a half to a restaurant out in the country ran by the Mennonites.   We had a lovely dinner and took another route home.   The girls kept asking "Where's the adventure? When are we going to get to the adventure?"  They were not really humored when we told them the drive WAS the adventure.

Enjoy your adventure and keep us updated on your progress.  (Got a digital camera?)  

After all,  your reason is likely the same reason Don Laskowski built his first Dupli-Carver and then the first Wood-Mizer.

History of Wood-Mizer
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

newguy

Bibbyman,

You are correct.  I have only figured actual material and componant costs.  My labor is free!  I had originally planned on having the project complete by the end of May.  That date is coming soon and I am still a long ways from being done.  I can't complain though, so far so good things seem to be coming together pretty well.  No major screw ups yet!  I have changed direction on the head design several times and now I think I have what I want (on paper).  The base frame, log loader, clamp, and dogs are done and ready for the head.  I recently picked up a Kubota V1200 diesel which was a larger  engine than I originally planned to use so it changed the head design a bit.

After 20 years of being in the machine building business.  I have learned (painfully) that once it is built it does not mean it is done.  I expect to spend most of the summer de-bugging and making hopefully slight mods.  I'll keep ya posted.  I will post some pics soon.  I am trying to document the progress with pics as I go.

To all,
This forum has been a great source of knowledge and inspiration.  I have learned a great deal from reading and following the links.  I still have a bunch to learn.  As far as the metal working end of things go, I am fairly confident with my work.  When it comes to sawing though, I have alot to learn.  I will probably be posting some really stupid questions once the blade hits the wood!  

Thanks to all,

Craig
Still buildin', soon to run home brew cant. head

Mark M

For lubricant on those screws you might consider a light gear oil such as 75W or 80W. It will have Extreme Pressure additives that are needed with metal-to-metal contact as you will have in your acme screw. I think the lighter oil will have less tendency to cake with sawdust than a heavier weight such as SAE 90. You could also use a "hypoid" gear grease as in used in some outboard motor lower units. These oil work well for sliding wear situations.

If you want to use grease consider using a 5% moly grease with a calcium sulfonate base. These are water resistant extreme pressure lubricants that work very well in adverse conditions. The product I am familiar with is Caterpillar Auto-lube grease. They also have similar greases for extreme high and low temperatures that are even better (but more expensive). I don't know if sawdust will be a problem or not with the grease, the one advantage to using oil is you can clean the threads with a little kerosene and flush everything away.

Good luck and have fun!

Mark

PS - I use the Cat Auto-lube grease on my Norwood Sawmill screws and wheel bearings and it works very well for me.

newguy

Mark,

Thanks for the tips.  I am not real familiar with Norwood saws.  Are the screws exposed so that saw dust gets on them or are they covered fairly well?  Mine will be fairly well shielded from the saw dust but I was concearned that it may bind the nut.  From what I have been getting for a response I guess I shouldn't worry about it too much.

Craig
Still buildin', soon to run home brew cant. head

D._Frederick

One problem with the home-build stuff is that you will have a hard time sell it when the time comes. People don't want to take the risk with poor design and sloppy workmanship. You will be hard pressed to sell it for the material costs.

newguy

First of all my intent is not to sell the mill, I will not have 10's of thousands of dollars into it so it will not be a financial burden as could be if I bought a new mill and had a loan on it.  Secondly I do have a bit of experience with building equipment so I am expecting the poor design and sloppy workmanship to be at a minimum. :D
Still buildin', soon to run home brew cant. head

Swede

I´ve been a machine-designer and -builder since -85 but building a saw mill, particular the saw head..........no. I CAN but it takes too much time before it´ll be ready for sawing good lumber.

I found "Amerika-Sågen", (manual) get it cheap and have enough work with making it hydraulik and not to heavy (less than 1200Kg).   Was up to a chain type turner first but now I don´t know.  ::) A chain means some more levels and a hydraulic motor. A chain rotating a round log and also a square block with out an extra cylinder for enough tilt seems not that easy. ::) I want everyting be well protected inside the frame so there isn´t much pace.

Looked at an old Forestor Jacko yesterday and get some ideas. Does anyone know how that  log turner  works? Presupposed I can make it better......... ;D

Swede.
Had a mobile band sawmill, All hydraulics  for logs 30\"x19´, remote control. (sold it 2009-04-13)
Monkey Blades.Sold them too)
Jonsered 535/15\". Just cut firewood now.

Fla._Deadheader

  Larry Copas sent me some info a while back on log turners. This design was unique.

  It consisted of a shaft that ran parallel with the log. It had 2 concentric cam wheels welded on the shaft, so that, when you rotate the turner, it will lift and roll the log or cant. I have thought about that style, but, with our widely varying size of logs, I have to figure a way to "adjust" for the sizes of log.

  I think it was on a stationary mill with the log on the carriage, so you could advance the log toward the turner, and then kick it back to the head blocks.

  I will take a look and see if I have the link to the site.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Buzz-sawyer

Newguy ...way to hang in there under the barage of friendly fire....you seem to be able to keep your sense of humor!
  I have every confidence you can build WHATEVER you set your mind to ,I only hope you post a few pics of your neatly designed, valuable, well made, mill ....my friend
Don
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

newguy

Buzz-Sawyer,

I am used to the friendly fire thing.  In the business I am in, everytime I make a mistake the whole place knows about it and lets me know they know.  Thin skin isn't an option if you want to last very long.  

I hope I didn't come accross as arrogant.  I am sure I will run into my share of headaches before it is over.  I will say though, I have seen some mills on the market that are sold as a product line that aren't all that impressive.  I'll post some pics soon and take the heat from you guys.

Craig
Still buildin', soon to run home brew cant. head

Rod

This is just to give you and idea on how you might use a cable.

Here is how the cable works on my mill



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