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dishonesty

Started by CX3, October 28, 2013, 09:06:34 PM

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CX3

Ok I feel like I only get on here when I have a problem so here goes lol

I have a 50mbf job that I haven't been able to get to for awhile. The landowner calls me and says if there's anyway I could to please cut the timber because he's needing some dough. So I hire a guy that I know does a good job to go cut it for so much a thousand.

THE VERY FIRST DAY on the job the neighbor comes over and my logger and the new guy cut a deal to whack 200mbf of good timber. My logger goes back to the mill bragging about the patch of timber he just got. (Everyone there knows the deal he and I made. I basically did him a favor because he's out of work)

Well during his bragging session he tells everyone "don't tell Clancy"  (that's me)  That didn't work so well for him because my phone blew up immedietly

Needless to say I'm a little upset. I feel like the landowner should have been directed towards me. That could have just as easily been my skidder sitting there drawing attention if I wouldn't have hired him. What's your opinion?
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

nath78

Seems like that happens often do some guy a good turn and get the screws in the end that's why I don't use subs no more not much you can do unless he hasn't got a contract signed yet.

Windy_Acres

Isn't this the proverbial, "no good deed goes unpunished" ?

nath78

Yep like saying good guys finish last

beenthere

CX3
Maybe some others can understand what happened from your explanation. But it's not clear to me (no big deal, but just sayin... ).  ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Nemologger

That's one of the reasons I always use a contract.
Clean and Sober

Peev

I wish more of this work were in Southern Colorado, you'd be happy, so would I.

barbender

Well, the fact that he doesn't want you to know about it seems telling.
Too many irons in the fire

treeslayer2003

it has happened to me before, that's why I don't share work with any one now. sorry buddy, but people ain't right.

treeslayer2003

Quote from: beenthere on October 28, 2013, 10:07:45 PM
CX3
Maybe some others can understand what happened from your explanation. But it's not clear to me (no big deal, but just sayin... ).  ;)
he was busy so he subbed the job out to another logger. the other logger was approached by an adjoining owner about logging his land as well. the right thing to do here is direct that landowner to the original logger but instead this  dude greedily took over.

beenthere

Thanks, that explanation sunk through the thick skull.... and I can pick it out of the OP too (now).
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

CCC4

A good analogy for this situation would be, "don't give yer buddy your girlfriends phone number".

So what's the deal, you already logging somewhere else? My boss draws a contract and puts say $10g's down on it until I can get there to cut it. I have a tract simmering for next Spring already.

CX3

Thanks for the replies. I understand there is not much I can do about it.

Yes I am logging somewhere else. I am very busy right now it is hard to get to all the jobs and make everyone happy.
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

justallan1

I'd say it may be sneaky on your loggers part, or he wouldn't have asked people to keep quiet about it.
I will say that if I'm working in your shop for you and am approached by someone needing some work done I'd send them to you, but if you give me a job that you couldn't get to and I'm approached by someone else, that has had no communication with you in any way, then that's business and I would let you know how things worked out and keep you in mind for when I need a hand or couldn't get to a job myself.
Please keep in mind that I'm not a logger and don't know the ins and outs of the way things are done in a lot of places.

Allan

nmurph

Quote from: CCC4 on October 29, 2013, 06:31:38 AM
A good analogy for this situation would be, "don't give yer buddy your girlfriends phone number".

So what's the deal, you already logging somewhere else? My boss draws a contract and puts say $10g's down on it until I can get there to cut it. I have a tract simmering for next Spring already.

No, it's like you give your GF's your friend's number and she gives it her to hot best friend: I don't see a problem here. The only thing the OP should be upset about would be if the the sub stopped cutting on the OP's timber and jumped ship to the neighbor's timber without finishing up the original job.

nmurph

Quote from: justallan1 on October 29, 2013, 08:04:01 AM
I'd say it may be sneaky on your loggers part, or he wouldn't have asked people to keep quiet about it.
I will say that if I'm working in your shop for you and am approached by someone needing some work done I'd send them to you, but if you give me a job that you couldn't get to and I'm approached by someone else, that has had no communication with you in any way, then that's business and I would let you know how things worked out and keep you in mind for when I need a hand or couldn't get to a job myself.
Please keep in mind that I'm not a logger and don't know the ins and outs of the way things are done in a lot of places.

Allan

Yep, but keeping your business to yourself is good business. The sub-contractor has no obligation to send business to the OP. Looking down the road, it might be wise on his part to make the OP aware and possibly make some offer to split the job. But the OP seems to think he is doing the sub a one-way favor by steering some work his way, while failing to see that the sub is doing him a favor by making a land owner happy by cutting wood he can't get to in a timely manner.

moosehunter

I don't see this as dishonest either, maybe it could/ should have been handled differently but not dishonest. Now if he were your employee,.. that is a different story.
"And the days that I keep my gratitude
Higher than my expectations
Well, I have really good days".    Ray Wylie Hubbard

Kemper

Add me to the group that doesn't see this as a big deal. He was doing you a favor by getting wood that you dont have time to do and you're upset he isn't sending you more wood that you don't have time to work. I send jobs to other people all the time, some times they give me a kick back, most times they don't. I'm just happy to help others out.

Quote from: moosehunter on October 29, 2013, 03:38:49 PM
I don't see this as dishonest either, maybe it could/ should have been handled differently but not dishonest. Now if he were your employee,.. that is a different story.

thenorthman

Sounds like business to me.  He probably shouldn't have been bragging about it, and maybe should have told you first, but he got the job cause he had boots on the ground.  Granted I would be a little peeved too, but I would have to get over it, as long as he's finishing the first job first, and then moving on to the second.

Contract logging and logging private ground is more about word of mouth than anything else, most people have no idea how to contact a logger, or that most of us are loggers they just see some filthy dude that needs to shave driving a filthy truck that needs a new fender, or tailgate... Professional is not the first word that comes to mind... So when Joe neighbor sees Billy the "logger" they think hot *DanG I should sell my timber.
well that didn't work

exSW

It's a little crappy but on the list of crappy things that go on in the woods this one is pretty far down that list.
"well I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison"

Gary_C

What this is really like is giving a friend the phone number of a girlfriend that you trying to give up and then finding out the friend found a better gal thru the unwanted girlfriend. And you already have too many girlfriends anyway.

So what's the problem? Sounds like more envy than dishonesty.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Ron Scott

It happens to me all the time. ;) Often when I put a logger into a job; he will get additional jobs from the nearby neighbors.
~Ron

beenthere

I think the OP (Clancy) should be most concerned that the logger he says he hired to do the delayed job for him, is doing a good job and is getting the landowner his money that he said he needs.
The other landowner that contacted his logger is completely different deal and should be of no concern (other than some envy) to the OP.

But a good friendly talk with his logger is due, if not done already so everything is above board.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

rfm7fxfox

I'm in agreement with everyone who doesn't see this as a big deal. You subbed out the job and because he was there doing the work an adjacent land owner confronted the logger and asked him to log his land. As long as the original job gets done before he moves on then I dont see it as a problem. You said you're very busy and the guy you hired wasn't working so you helped him out, now he has more work after this job, you should be happy for him. He diddnt steal anything from you, if you were the one logging it you would've been the one the land owner contacted. If you're that busy with other jobs then one job "lost" shouldnt upset you at all. Only thing I see wrong is the hired logger "bragging" other then that be happy you helped someone who wasn't working and be happy that you're so busy that you don't have to worry about your next job. There are much bigger problems to worry about I'm sure!
Stay safe in the woods!
Dolmar 7900, Ported Dolmar 7910, Ported Johnsered 2172, J-Red 2186, Ported Husky 385, Ported J-Red 2258,Tree Farmer C5D,Timberjack 460 D.A. Grapple, 2015 KMC 2500 Grapple Track Skidder and 2005 Peterbilt 379 Logtruck

Draco

hon·es·ty
1.
the quality or fact of being honest; uprightness and fairness.
2.
truthfulness, sincerity, or frankness.
3.
freedom from deceit or fraud.

He wasn't really dishonest.  He took advantage of a situation.  I don't know what the original agreement was, but I'm fairly sure that you would have made a few bucks from the original reference that you gave him.  If you had made me the offer and I was put in the same situation, I would have accepted the job and worked out a deal with you that would have been similar to whatever arrangement you made with him.  I would not have shared the information with anyone else before we had things settled.  Everyone is different and every relationship is different.

If it really gets to you, I'd ask to have a talk with him.  You might want to break any future ties with him, or he may be a good friend who thought he was doing no wrong.  If there is bad blood now, just break things off and call it a lesson learned.  Tell him that he won't be getting another job from you in the future.  If not, he may just not see it the same way that you do.  He may be willing to give you a cut for the reference that got him the job, or need some help if you have time.

I try not to burn bridges, but if he doesn't believe in returning favors, I wouldn't hand out any more of them.

CX3

I suppose dishonesty was a poor choice of words for me to use. Maybe more like unethical would have been better?

I believe the people not seeing this as a big deal have it wrong. If I were a general contractor and had a framing crew hired, and joe neighbor walks up and hires the framing crew to build his house, guess what somebody gets fired right after the fist fight.

I feel like the job should have been referred to me and I would have happily paid to have him log it.

He was working for me on my job. Period.

Ever heard of alley trading at the salebarn? Yep it's not the thing to do.
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

beenthere

Clancy
He was his own man when the neighbor approached him. As I see it, and not alley trading as you see it.
Sorry, but I'd give the guy credit for making his own deals based on his "advertising" on your job.

Get over it, and move on catching up with the jobs you are behind on now.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

exSW

Nope,he didn't pen hook you either,work don't wait.If you want it all expand your business to cover what you bid.Think hard about this,he was pulling your weight taking the job you couldn't get to,then he benefited from it by getting the next door job.There is NO FASTER WAY to shoot yourself in the foot than by making people you are contractually obligated to wait,it gets around,FAST.Have you thought that the neighbor didn't contact you on purpose when he saw how long it was taking you to get to the original piece?
Also,if he is working for you are you sending him a w-2 or a 1099 at the end of the year? 
"well I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison"

Woodboogah

I dont see anything wrong here.  Maybe he should have let you know, maybe.  He is helping you out, by doing so he was able to line up some work for after the fact.  I would be more worried about him doing a good job on the lot he is cutting for you then him getting some work lined up for when he is done.  If you are booked out and cant get to the work then who cares anyways.  If he didnt get it someone else would have.  Cant have it all!
Keenan Logging & Tree Care, LLC

Ianab

Employee vs Subcontractor

If someone is actually employed by you, and pulls this stunt, then it's pretty low. As in you would be justified firing them.  But if you have an employer / employee relationship, that makes you responsible for lining up the future work, and providing that security to the worker, that he has a job next week / month / year (hopefully).  He then owes you some loyalty, and in this situation, puts the job through your business.

BUT - if you hire someone to Sub-contract a one off job, with no definite promise of ongoing work. Sure he should complete the agreed work for you, but in the back of his mind he's got to be thinking, "What am I going to do once this job is done?". You haven't promised more work, so what's he to do? Line up the next job, and if that happens to be some neighbour flagging him down as he leave your job site, what's he going to do?

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

rfm7fxfox

I feel you're over reacting. You stated that you have more work then you can handle now thus sub contracting one of your jobs out. Basically it sounds like you would have had him cut the neighbors job too but you feel like you should get some money for the deal. Wrong! He is NOT your employee, he IS helping you by doing a job you could NOT do. Congrats to him on lining up another job for himself after this one. I don't see anything wrong about what he did. Maybe the neighbor was going to contact you but saw that you were too busy, saw the job the sub contractor was doing, liked it and decided to hire him. What's done is done and griping about it now will solve nothing. Move on, after all its one job and you have many.
Dolmar 7900, Ported Dolmar 7910, Ported Johnsered 2172, J-Red 2186, Ported Husky 385, Ported J-Red 2258,Tree Farmer C5D,Timberjack 460 D.A. Grapple, 2015 KMC 2500 Grapple Track Skidder and 2005 Peterbilt 379 Logtruck

beenthere

And to add, what if this neighbor was just someone happening by on the road, saw him logging, and stopped to inquire about him doing some logging for them??  No real difference, and should not owe you anything for taking another job. I think it is pretty clear. Now hope you can get over it and not lose anymore sleep over it.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

treeslayer2003

well I been on both ends of this and I do think it is unethical. I have refered the landowners to who baught the original tract. I guess I see why this happens now, maybe we should all be dog eat dog. isn't that why rates are so low for cutting for a mill? because there's allways another guy that will cut the rate. because we won't stick together.

Gary_C

Quote from: treeslayer2003 on October 30, 2013, 07:55:18 PM
because we won't stick together.

WE are not together. Cause it's illegal for one thing.

Quote from: CX3 on October 30, 2013, 05:09:39 PM
If I were a general contractor and had a framing crew hired, and joe neighbor walks up and hires the framing crew to build his house, guess what somebody gets fired right after the fist fight.

But you are not the general contractor. There is a big difference there.

And being a hothead and throwing fists is going to get you in big trouble.

"Vee Get Too Soon Olt Und Too Late Schmart!"
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

lynde37avery

well a few ways to look at it. 1. he was hard up for work and he got lucky and you can be proud he has tons of work now and you were a generous friend. 2. get so mad and don't resolve anything and fist fight with him over it "who ever wins gets the jobs" or 3. say to him you wont be needing him anymore after he finishes, and be silent about it.
..myself id be upset for a bit. id get over it in time. cuz maybe he has a hungry family or debts to pay for.
Detroit WHAT?

thenorthman

The way I'm seeing this is, he is under contract with you to finish one job.  Making you the general contractor defacto for one job once said job is complete, the Sub contractor is free to find other work, also there is nothing stopping the sub contractor from looking for other work while finishing the job he's currently on.  If other work finds him what reason would he have to turn it down?

Secondly, is it possible that someday the favor could be returned?  If so you should maybe keep your trap shut, lick your wounds for not getting the job, and move on.

If it where to come to blows over finding other gainful employment, then there would be a whole pile of bosses with black eyes and skinned knuckles.

Like I said its sucks you didn't get the contract, but you didn't get the contract because you where not available at the appropriate time and place.  Which is the same reason why any of us get contracts (that and not coming off as a skeesy criminal crack head... don't ask...its the secret to my success...)
well that didn't work

redprospector

I have my opinion about this, but it's irrelevant. If you decide to confront him about the situation, my advice is the same that my Dad used to give me all the time.
Be careful of the words you say,
keep them soft and sweet.
You never know from day to day,
which one's you'll have to eat.

Very simple, and very true.

Andy

1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

OlympicYJ

CX3 you are right, this is an ethics problem. Like northman says someday the favor could be returned if he's busy and you're not. Perhaps he should have referred them to you but as others have pointed out he is subbing not an employee. He may have even told the landowner that he was subbing for you and therefore the landowner said he wasn't interested in selling to a guy that was so busy he has to sub work out. Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with subbing as long as the work is accomplished to the expected standard. Ethically should he have been bragging about it, probably not. The question to ask is are you upset about him not referring you or that he shot his mouth off about it?

CX3

To be honest guys I don't know why I'm upset. If that makes sense. I can say if I were in his shoes the very first thing I would have done was called me to see what I felt about it. I am happy he's got some work now. Hes a decent fella. The skeesy crackhead look comment does come to mind a bit but hey showers aren't for all of us lol.

I haven't said anything but I do feel we need to talk like men with no fighting I just need to state my opinions and go on. I am blessed by God with some awesome jobs to do. My human tendancy is to WANT THEM ALL lol

Thanks guys I just love this site
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

Gary_C

This isn't fighting. We just are trying to make sure you see our point and you seemed to be resisting.  ;D

The fighting is what comes on Black Friday when the stores open their doors to the bargains. Then those people will kill to get the best bargains.  :)

You just cannot get all the jobs that are out there.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

exSW

Quote from: CX3 on October 31, 2013, 09:29:49 AM
To be honest guys I don't know why I'm upset. If that makes sense. I can say if I were in his shoes the very first thing I would have done was called me to see what I felt about it. I am happy he's got some work now. Hes a decent fella. The skeesy crackhead look comment does come to mind a bit but hey showers aren't for all of us lol.

I haven't said anything but I do feel we need to talk like men with no fighting I just need to state my opinions and go on. I am blessed by God with some awesome jobs to do. My human tendancy is to WANT THEM ALL lol

Thanks guys I just love this site
I think your ambition is over riding your logic.I used to be young and in a bid business,you just can't get them all,if you did you wouldn't be able to get it all done.People are going to crow a little when they get a job over you.How you handle it says a lot.You won't get where you seem to want to be by carrying this stuff around.It's history,water off a ducks back,quack,quack and move on.Save the POed for when someone really tries to put it to you and then make a point of making it stick.
"well I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison"

Dieselsteve

Boy there is no such thing as honor, integrity, trustworthiness, and honesty anymore. I was raised by my grandparents and they instilled all of these qualities in me. and I know a lot of you have these same qualities,  but we are truly the 1 percent anymore. why people have to go around and try to screw others over I have no clue, I guess the ways of the world have changed, and everyone wonders why this country is the way it is!

beenthere

Dieselsteve
Don't see where anyone was "screwed" here.
The logger hired to cut the wood that the OP couldn't get to for his customer took the job. While on the job, another landowner saw him working (presumably) and asked him to take on another job.

Maybe the only mistake that has surfaced was bragging about it at the mill and saying "don't tell" CX3.  I gather CX3 is man enough to talk it over and move on. Not seeing any lack of honor, integrity, trustworthiness, or honesty here.

Any person in business and out on the job, be it logger, plumber, landscaper, AC repairman, carpet cleaner, adinfinitum would entertain a new customer if asked while on someone's job.
Only if the worker was an employee of a company would he need to pass that request for more work along to his boss.  CX3 seems real clear that he wasn't this loggers boss, if I read it correctly.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Howdy

So here I was, enjoying the good life.  I had a best friend who I hung out with a great deal, going to college and meeting lots of people.  I drove a two seat convertible sports car and being young-I didn't think things through before acting a lot of the time. 

My buddy attended another college so we seldom had common friends though I knew he was a real bird dog, always after the girls.  I was more a one gal kinda guy but could also see the trees in the forest.  I maintained a smaller set of friends and tried to be loyal, kind, and sharing some times to excess. 

Remember the sports car? Remember that it was a two seater?  Usually when my bud and I went out we took it as his car was a real boat, big, expensive to drive and a real pain to park.  He enjoyed older cars, the ones from the late 50's and early 60's though not always running well. We were in college and didn't have enough money to have dependable cars and still go out several nights a week at the same time.   Besides the weather was good and what guy wouldn't want to be in a sports car. 

Now here's the rub.  I also wanted to spend time with the girl friend.  So the three of us went places in my car a lot-like most of the time.  She liked my bud, he liked her and I likes both of them. Life was good!  How you may ask can three people ride around in a two seat sports car?  Well of course being one of the three is a girl she would sit on my buddy's lap with them giggling and having a good time as I drove everywhere.  We were young and remember my bud was always hunting the brush for opportunities. 

The moral of the story is to accept that you are not always in control of the actions of others.  Or maybe to let my buddy drive my car.  Of course, neither of us ever passed inspection with the gal.  She met a new fella and five days later got engaged.  I kept the buddy and got a larger car. 

On a side note (as though this entire posting isn't side enough) one night my buddy and I met a couple of gals who over the course of an evenings frolicking wanted him to give them a ride to their home.  I didn't join them (remember I was a one gal kinda guy) and truly expected him to return to the place and get me as he was my ride that evening.  I ended up walking 10 miles home that night.  But I learned to always keep a little money back just in case, something he never could learn.  Another time he was carousing and met a couple of "lady's" who talked him into driving them 700 miles from Oregon to Montana.  His old boat of a car made it 150 miles down the highway before it blew up.  They had to hitchhike back to town and he never did recover the car.  But I bet he thought it was worth it somehow. 

Dieselsteve

Quote from: beenthere on November 01, 2013, 01:49:43 PM
Dieselsteve
Don't see where anyone was "screwed" here.
The logger hired to cut the wood that the OP couldn't get to for his customer took the job. While on the job, another landowner saw him working (presumably) and asked him to take on another job.

Maybe the only mistake that has surfaced was bragging about it at the mill and saying "don't tell" CX3.  I gather CX3 is man enough to talk it over and move on. Not seeing any lack of honor, integrity, trustworthiness, or honesty here.

Any person in business and out on the job, be it logger, plumber, landscaper, AC repairman, carpet cleaner, adinfinitum would entertain a new customer if asked while on someone's job.
Only if the worker was an employee of a company would he need to pass that request for more work along to his boss.  CX3 seems real clear that he wasn't this loggers boss, if I read it correctly.

Ooohh I thought I read he took the current job from the logger sorry  :-X

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