Sawing rates

[delvis]

Okay, I have a question for all the people out there who saw for customers and not just for themselves.  Regardless of the amount charged, the standard seems to be by the board foot for sawing lumber.

Here is my question for you:  What are your thoughts on charging by the hour the same as almost every other type of contractor does?

I would love to see the whole portable sawmill community switch to hourly rates because I think the sawyer would get much better sawing conditions.  Most people aren't going to want to pay 'x' dollars per hour to watch the sawyer clean dirt and mud off the logs, or mess around trying to get a jumbled pile of logs in some sort of pile worth sawing. 

I charge by the board foot now and keep my rates right with everyone else in the area, but there are a few jobs that get done by the hour.  Jobs with short logs or less than 1,000 bd feet are charged by the hour as well as a few others.

What do you all do?

[customsawyer]

There are several members on here that charge by the hour. I prefer to charge by the bf as I can do better by the bf than by the hour. There are a few jobs where I charge by the hour but they are few and far between.

[ladylake]

I charge by the hour, keeps me any my customers happy.   Steve

[Nomad]

     I prefer to charge by the bf.  But the small homeowner type jobs are always done by the hour. Slabbing is hourly too.

[TimGA]

Always depends on job, access log size, job site, talk about it with customer, be clear on what is expected from each of us. As long as we are both happy in the end, he got lumber I got paid.
                                                            Tim

[BBTom]

I did charge $60/hr the last 5 or so years.  I have just raised it to $75/hr.   I make enough money at $75/hr. and the customer still gets a better deal IF they have decent logs and good help.  There are those customers that have a bunch of 6" to 12" diameter logs and lazy help, they are the ones who pay more for their lumber. 
I charge by the board foot when customers bring their logs to me, $0.40 for sawing and $0.40 for kiln drying if they want it.  Both of these prices just got raised a dime.  I had been charging $0.30 since I started 12  years ago.
What you charge has a lot to do with where you are, your reputation and what your competition is.

[Magicman]

I make much more charging by the bf.  Some small jobs and sawing ERC are always sawed hourly rate.

[GDinMaine]

I ask potential customers about the diameter and length of logs. I do jobs by the bf but!  If a significant number are less the 10" on small end I only saw it by the hour. Logs less then 8', live edge through-and-through and cutting mantles go by the hour.  It would be very hard to do some of that by the bf. 

[dboyt]

I have a hard time understanding people who say they make more per board ft than they do by the hour.  If you do an analysis, those numbers should be close to the same.  I charge $60/hr (Norwood HD36 manual sawmill), but can make a pretty close bid by scaling straight logs to International 1/4" + 15%. I take on some pretty unusual jobs that no one else will handle, so hourly wage is the only way to go for me.  Some of the logs I cut are as short as 3' long, and the customer knows that he (or she) is paying as much as $1.50 per board ft to have them milled.

[Chuck White]

For the most part, where you're located will dictate the sawing rate, per bf or per hour!

I charge by the bf, but if there's a lot of extra handling, small logs, under 10" or large logs that require chainsaw work, or logs not stacked properly, I charge by the hour!

[jdonovan]

Here is my question for you:  What are your thoughts on charging by the hour the same as almost every other type of contractor does?

The only contractors I know around my area who work by the hour are in the excavation trade. And even that is becoming less and less common. Just did a road job, and that was all fixed price quote.

I don't hire plumbers, carpenters, landscapers, roofers etc.. by the hour. Almost all contractors quote the job, and present a total price. With the caveat that unseen, or unexpected conditions are extra charge. 

IMO the $/bd-ft is essentially a quote the job method. Its easy to measure the logs, and look up on your 1/4" or doyle scale and have a fairly good estimate of the lumber in the logs, and hence the total price for the job.

[Kingcha]

Having bought my mill just this last spring I have only been cutting for myself and most of what I have been cutting has been under 12" so I have no real idea of what my production rate could be.   I plan on charging by the hour and I'm running a manual Lt15 electric mill.    I have no idea what to charge at this point.   My one question is how much time do you think I will spend taking care of the mill(dealing with sawdust, slabs & maintenance) that won't be included when sawing.   I am guessing for every billed hour I will have 20-30 minutes of work not billed.

Matt

[Magicman]

I have a hard time understanding people who say they make more per board ft than they do by the hour. 

The great majority of my sawing is framing lumber and I have a fully (Super) hydraulic sawmill.  I would have to take a $20 per hour cut in pay to saw hourly rate.   ;D

[Tom the Sawyer]

Delvis,

As you can see by the responses to this thread, and the numerous previous threads on the same topic, there are proponents of each method and I suspect many of us are 'hybrids', charging both ways depending on the circumstances.  Even 'hourly' is open to debate, some charge hourly by the mill's engine hours, others may charge from the time they show up until the time they leave. 

I have an hourly rate of $60 (actual milling time), $40 for other work like moving logs, bucking, etc.  Hourly milling is my threshold rate, reserved for low productivity milling - things like short logs, small diameters, specialty milling (splitting poles, mantles, cookies), etc.  I will generally make much more "per hour" when I am milling decent logs by the board foot.  If I'm making lots of boards, I'm making lots of money.   

What works for you may be different than what works for others in your area.  I'm happy with my fee structure, some of my clients comment that I don't charge enough and three of the last four threw in a tip.   

[Suggesting or promoting that an entire 'community' establish a common system that involves rates or fees raises concerns of price fixing, restraint of trade, and other no-no's.] 

[YellowHammer]

To each his own, but...

I will generally make much more "per hour" when I am milling decent logs by the board foot.  If I'm making lots of boards, I'm making lots of money.   

Sawing by the hour guarantees a fixed wage, but also does not benefit a sawyer to increase production.   My competition in this area generally charges $75 per hour.

I charge by the bdft and haven't sawn for that in a long time   ;D

YH

[jmouton]

   we got our mill  located  half way  between detroit and ann arbor   and we charge  65 an  hour  plus  travel charge if we go somewhere  ,  we  arnt  rollin in dough  but we are happy with what we charge and so are our customers  , so far,  oh  thats michigan  for you southeners  who dont know where detroit or ann arbor is , haha , we  dont really like the bd ft price much  cuz we are a manual mill  and we work our but off as it is , so if we charged by the bd ft  we probably make less after moving logs and the sort , so it works for us


                                                                                                                                     jim

[drobertson]

I too saw by the bd/ft,  if you go by the hour, it ranges from 50 to 100 an hour, depending on the logs and product.  I say to each his own,  I would rather make my pace for quality than try an hustle to meet a customers needs or demands (in regards to what they are paying by the hour) ,  I have never had a complaint, felt guilty a few times, but whatever, it is a service, and a good product, just the going rate.  Lots of mills around here, and most have worked in or around timber and mills most of their life.  Most all know quality, and appreciate it when they see it.  Some play dumb, but brag on their boards later, mostly beams and big boards make the footage quickly, moving them off and loading the next make up the difference for charging by the bd/ft over hourly.   Work for yourself, while meeting the requirements is the key.  It will always work out in the end, (whenever this is),   david     

[JustinW_NZ]

I'm by the machine hour as some others here.
Tend to do a lot of quarter sawing hardwoods or other large or difficult stuff, so I would go hungry if I wasn't charging by machine hour. (flooring)
$30p/h for any chainsaw work as well.

I think however you need to have a good production mill to charge by the hour however, there's a big difference in output (or potential output) between a lt-10 and a lt-40super per hour!

I might be about to take up a sleeper contract which is per cube rate but you can knock out big blocks pretty quickly, so I feel if you able to make money on it why not?

Like others have found, if everyone is on the same page and feeling good about the deal being done its should mean re-occurring long term customers and a stable long term business.

Cheers
Justin

[Brucer]

When I'm sawing customers' logs (which isn't that often) I will quote two different ways, depending on the job.

If it is straightforward sawing I will charge by the BF or by the machine hour, whichever is less. That way the customer can calculate ahead of time what the maximum price will be. If the logs are really good, or the customer makes an effort to make things go fast, then he/she gets a break on the price.

If the customer wants something unusual (beveled siding, quarter sawn/edge grain) then I go strictly by the hour.

[delvis]

Here is my question for you:  What are your thoughts on charging by the hour the same as almost every other type of contractor does?

The only contractors I know around my area who work by the hour are in the excavation trade. And even that is becoming less and less common. Just did a road job, and that was all fixed price quote.

I don't hire plumbers, carpenters, landscapers, roofers etc.. by the hour. Almost all contractors quote the job, and present a total price. With the caveat that unseen, or unexpected conditions are extra charge. 

IMO the $/bd-ft is essentially a quote the job method. Its easy to measure the logs, and look up on your 1/4" or doyle scale and have a fairly good estimate of the lumber in the logs, and hence the total price for the job.

When I said contractors I meant people such as plumbing and heating people that come to your place when you have a problem, but what you're saying makes sense.  The general contractors here do the same thing you're talking about.

Delvis,
[Suggesting or promoting that an entire 'community' establish a common system that involves rates or fees raises concerns of price fixing, restraint of trade, and other no-no's.] 

I don't think that having an industry standard of charging equals price fixing, I just think it means the customers would know what to expect when they call someone to come saw for them.

Maine is a hard place to saw in a lot of ways.  The bd ft price for sawing where I am runs about $.21 and $.24 for softwood and hardwood respectively.  That's the travel price, it's less when the wood comes to the mill.

I know that sawing 2" and up makes it easier to make more money by the foot than the hour but when I am sawing 1" boards and a considerable time is spent cleaning dirt and mud off and trying to saw crooked crotched logs that are piled downhill with the small end away from me, I am losing out.  If I tell the customer I get $50 an hour they tend to make sure everything is set up so I am not there longer than I need to be.  I think part of the problem is that I need to start being upfront with the customer about what certain things will cost rather than just doing them myself for nothing.  I want more than anything for the customer to be happy and have me back, but I want to make some decent money for what I am doing as well.

I did charge $60/hr the last 5 or so years.  I have just raised it to $75/hr.   I make enough money at $75/hr. and the customer still gets a better deal IF they have decent logs and good help.  There are those customers that have a bunch of 6" to 12" diameter logs and lazy help, they are the ones who pay more for their lumber. 
I charge by the board foot when customers bring their logs to me, $0.40 for sawing and $0.40 for kiln drying if they want it.  Both of these prices just got raised a dime.  I had been charging $0.30 since I started 12  years ago.
What you charge has a lot to do with where you are, your reputation and what your competition is.

I would love to be getting $.40 per foot to saw.  We sell knotty pine for that around here!  We rarely get help from the customer because they would want to pay even less for the sawing. 

[rmack]

I can't stop anyone else from doing it for nothing, but I won't be "that guy".

If you can't make money sawing in your area, then do something else/somewhere else until the market returns.

humans and vultures are different in that humans will often stay put and try eating each other rather than go looking for a decent meal.