Bar oil substitute?

[onegunsmith]

I'm working in a remote village in Alaska and don't have any bar oil. They shipped us a brand new MS461 to cut timbers with (seems to be overkill but the project manager is an old logger) but since there isn't a tree within two hundred miles bar oil is nowhere to be found. We got plenty of two stroke as this is snowmachine country. What can i use to not ruin this new bar and chain?

Thanks

[JohnG28]

ATF or maybe hydraulic oil,  add a tackifyer of some sort if you can get it. Or a light weight motor oil.

[MidWestTree]

In a pinch, I'd look around for some 30 to 40 weight oil, and some 90 weight gear oil and play with the mix until it looks right. Any oil would be better than nothing but straight oil or atf would seem to thin to stay put long enough.

[onegunsmith]

I got ATF, 30 weight and might be able to get some hydro. Thanks!

[joe_indi]

ATF with about 15% gear oil to give it some badly needed anti-fling property would be right.

[Ianab]

If nothing else is available then cheap 30wt engine oil will work.

Maybe in Alaska (cold?) you might want to mix in some ATF or kero to keep it flowing?

Proper bar oil has a "tackifier" to make it stick to the bar better, but you can run clean engine oil if you have nothing else. Heck some folks run used engine oil, but it makes a nasty black mess of everything   :-\

Main thing is that you have "something" oily pumping into the bar  ;)

Ian

[Plan-b]

I'm working in a remote village in Alaska and don't have any bar oil. They shipped us a brand new MS461 to cut timbers with (seems to be overkill but the project manager is an old logger) but since there isn't a tree within two hundred miles bar oil is nowhere to be found. We got plenty of two stroke as this is snowmachine country. What can i use to not ruin this new bar and chain?

Thanks

You can always try canola oil.

[Al_Smith]

You could use anything in it that would pump through the system .Any oil would work but perhaps not as well as regular bar oil .

However I'd think if they can ship in a chainsaw then bar oil shouldn't be a problem--dog sled .

[JohnG28]

If nothing else is available then cheap 30wt engine oil will work.

Maybe in Alaska (cold?) you might want to mix in some ATF or kero to keep it flowing?

Proper bar oil has a "tackifier" to make it stick to the bar better, but you can run clean engine oil if you have nothing else. Heck some folks run used engine oil, but it makes a nasty black mess of everything   :-\

Main thing is that you have "something" oily pumping into the bar  ;)

Ian

I was thinking about the cold, being he's in Alaska and its almost November with the ATF idea.

[onegunsmith]

Thanks for all the responses. It's not cold here yet, about 20 degrees. THe hard part of getting bar oil is the Hazmat fee as everything comes in by plane (no dog sleds) and the paper work needed to get it bought and sent. Thanks again for all your input. Can't wait to fire up that new 461.

[beenthere]

Surely they have oil available for the planes and other engines where you are. The gist of the responses is about any oil will work for you.
Just keep an eye on your bar and the oil reservoir.

[mad murdock]

Are you in one of the bush towns with an airport that has aircraft maintenance capabilities?  If so, the straight weight aircraft engine oil is good, you can add Lucas oil treatment as sticker, or STP motor honey.  Which town are you in? I did my time in the bush, lived in Aniak, Kotzebue, and Nome.  Been to most of the towns in the INterior and NW coast.  You should be able to find something that will work.  if it is a hub town, you can get bar oil from one of the suppliers in ANC or FBKS on the next flight out.  Good luck. 

[onegunsmith]

There is plenty of oil avalible, just no bar oil. Planes come in and leave daily depending on weather of course. To get a gallon of bar oil i would have to get a quote from a vendor, send it to Barrow for approval and a PO. Then it goes back to the vendor and they would take it to the air carrier. The air carrier would then charge us 1 dollar a pound and a 50 dollar hazmat fee. That makes for a dang spendy jug of oil for a couple hours of sawing. I'm in Anaktuvuk Pass, right inside the "Gates Of The Arctic National Park". Saw a giant herd of caribou today and a dandy Dall Sheep ram that a local shot.
Thanks again for all your responses. I think we are going to run 15W30 as thats what we have the most of.

[AKDoug]

I understand your purchasing problems, but bar oil shouldn't be hazmat. Stihl accidently mailed some to me last week by Priority Mail. You won't have an issue using motor oil, though, for what you are using the saw for.

[fuzzybear]

I know this will stir some people up...but... use canola oil.  There is no hazmat fee and it works up to -10 after that cut it with diesel. when you sharpen the chain clean everything good so it doesn't build up.  I spray everything down with carb cleaner once a week.  I've used it for over 8 years , cutting in the same climate as you with no problems.
  Nice thing is you can get it sent with your food order. I buy 5 gal jugs for $20 from the wholesale supply.
FB

[onegunsmith]

AKdoug, It started out as a way to cut 4x12's, 6x6's and a couple glue lams. By the time it got here we had already cut them with a 7 1/4 skill saw. Now it's to cut alders. Think a 461 can handle 3" alders? lol That's life in the bush I guess. If we had real trees they would have sent a wild thing.

[grweldon]

 :D :D :D

[UniversalFogger]

Sounds like you could get some used oil.  If you can get some your hands on STP, or motor honey or even gear or diff oil and add a little of that as a tackifier or thickener, you'd be able to get buy pretty well.   Thin enough for the cold, just strain the used oil well.  Don't run it dry, and used oil even in the cold will be too thin on its own.   

[GAB]

Onegunsmith:
You wrote; "Now it's to cut alders. Think a 461 can handle 3" alders?"
If it does not check to make sure the chain is on correctly, as they only work one way.  There was something published not too long ago that showed a chainsaw with the chain on backwards.  Enjoy the new saw.  Gerald

[Lanternguy]

this is going to sound kind of funny but this just happened to us, we were bush camping in Northern Ontario and my brother forgot bar oil so we used fry grease and bacon oil, i just made sure to pure some extra oil over the nose sprocket after a few cuts but it seemed to work fine for what we were doing

[Al_Smith]

I was going to be a wise guy and suggest bear grease .I got to thinking though first you need a bear which most likely would protest .That could prove to be a problem weather you get the bear or the bear gets you .The later would be unacceptable .

[clww]

Onegunsmith:
  There was something published not too long ago that showed a chainsaw with the chain on backwards.  Enjoy the new saw.  Gerald

That was shown on a Husky advertisement. :D

[thecfarm]

I saw it last week. It's still around.

[Cedar Savage]

I'd just dump some of that 2 stroke oil in it...should work fine in a pinch, especially in the cold.

[Al_Smith]

Wow that would be pricey bar lube .On the other hand if they didn't have enough sense to get some bar oil shipped in letem pay the piper .That'll show them where the bear did his thing in the woods except evidently there is no woods by whats been said .

Maybe the area is bearless in a manner of speaking which would cause my theory of bear grease to be ineffective and an inane idea .Which quite frankly it was anyway .

[onegunsmith]

We got bears! The grizzly kind. The saw is working well, a bit heavy for clearing brush but helps to get your chain saw fix. The 5w30 seems to be working well. Thanks again for all the comments.

[7sleeper]

Come on guys be serious! Don't use engine oil in an environment where the residue is guaranteed to stay for the next millennium! Any el cheapo vegetable, cooking oil will do! A lot of pro loggers here only use canola or vegetable oil on bars up to 22 inch because it costs a lot less than bar oil. They have no problems whatsoever.

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[beenthere]

7sleeper

A lot of pro loggers here only use canola or vegetable oil on bars up to 22 inch because it costs a lot less than bar oil.

Where is "here" ??

[firefighterwolf]

gunsmith... Alaska... bears... bears fat is used as a lubricant... there must be a way...  ;)

[Terry Syd]

Cheap vegetable oil, who would have thought it was so versatile. A mate of mine went camping and forgot the chain oil, so he used his wife's cooking oil.

Another time out bush I was going to run out of diesel before I got to town, but there was a corner shop on the way where I got 4 litres of cheap vegetable oil and poured that in the tank - the engine (mechanical injection system) ran fine and actually felt a bit 'crisper' .

[7sleeper]

7sleeper

A lot of pro loggers here only use canola or vegetable oil on bars up to 22 inch because it costs a lot less than bar oil.

Where is "here" ??

Sorry my profil has been updated now. Some guys here know me from another forum which is having serious problems recently. I'm from Austria and there is a german(german speaking guys from around the world=> Japan till Southamerica) forum where, believe it or not, these questions are also discused.

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[beenthere]

Thanks for the update, and welcome to the Forestry Forum.  8)

I have great memories of travelling in Austria, spring of '79. A beautiful country without a doubt. Drove along the Danube to Wien, and then to Graz and then West to Salzburg. A couple weeks of beautiful flowers everywhere across the landscape and very gracious people.

[HolmenTree]

Yes the Austrians have a beautiful country and they take environment issues seriously. I almost got in a fist fight with one Austrian.
I was staying at a Salzburg bed and breakfast in 2002, and while cleaning up my breakfast plate and putting the garbage in the different recycling bins the owner came running over , grabbed my wrist and started yelling at me.
He was offended when I put my paper napkin in the food waste bin.

Yes I have been using Canola oil in my saws for almost 10 years now and have had no problems with it. Only gets solid below -20C.

[7sleeper]

That is true. The environment is a serious thing for us. Most of our lakes have drinking water quality!

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[onegunsmith]

The environment will be fine as we are buiding houses on the land we are clearing. Cooking oil is a great idea but there is nothing cheap about it in the village. Heck that stuff isn't cheap in town.

[bandmiller2]

In cold weather plain old ATF works fine, adjust the delivery system a little richer and don't look back.No oil hangs out on the bar and chain very long anyways. Frank C.

[Hillbilly Rick]

One logging co. I cut for used old engine oil, even in his brand new Husky. Never saw any problems. I've seen guys use cooking oil too.

[schmalts]

One logging co. I cut for used old engine oil, even in his brand new Husky. Never saw any problems. I've seen guys use cooking oil too.

I work with a lubrication specialist in my full time job.  It also so happens his father ran a logging and mill operation in NM for 40 years. I asked him about using drain oil from your car and truck and his response was this "bar oil is about the lowest grade oil you can buy. Engine oil you drain from your engine is still leaps and bounds ahead of bar oil as far as wear resistance and all you need to do is add a tackifier. Since drain oil is free, run your oilers wide open and you will be fine in cold temps. Add a tackifier  for warm temps and then you are even better than commercial bar oil"  He said for winter use you could mix bar oil 50-50 with drain oil and be just fine because the add pack in motor oil.  He said "would you trust running an engine on brand new bar oil? I't low grade junk, it just sticks better than motor oil"  He also gave me a bottle of tackifie from a lube manufacture that works wonders, but it isn't available to the public unless your in the lube business. He used it to formulate a sticky engine assembly lube.

[Al_Smith]

They have found used crankcase oil  to be sufficient enough to act as bar oil as has used hydraulic oil .I don't use and won't ,too much of a mess all over things .

I suppose if push came to shove you could also use recycled French frier oil if that's all you had .Adding another chapter to the great oil debates .

In fact while the subject is being kicked around ,they even have some water based stuff which is said to be eco friendly .Most likely it's nothing but water with a jelling agent .Industrial strength KY jelly which BTW is exactly what some wire pulling lubricants are .I don't know maybe for the DIY group or "prepers" you might even be able to make your own from water and corn starch .This could cause some lively conversation . 8)

[HolmenTree]

Using waste engine oil in your saw and spraying it all over your work clothes and everything else would not be a good idea.
We all know how dirty and carcinogenic used engine oil is. Acids amongst other waste chemicals, metal filings.
One time I thought it was great idea to run used gear oil my logging partner drained out of his skidder for bar oil.
Ran it in my brand new Jonsereds 920, within 2 days the metal flings destroyed the saws oil pump. Plus the stink of the gear oil on my work clothes that couldn't be washed out :D

Here's a product that was quite poplar back in the 1970's.
This was touted to replace bar oil. Just turn off adjustable oil pump and don't add bar oil to saw.
One can would last 40 tanks of fuel. Spray on bar and chain every time saw is refueled .



 

[schmalts]

Using waste engine oil in your saw and spraying it all over your work clothes and everything else would not be a good idea.
We all know how dirty and carcinogenic used engine oil is. Acids amongst other waste chemicals, metal filings.
One time I thought it was great idea to run used gear oil my logging partner drained out of his skidder for bar oil.
Ran it in my brand new Jonsereds 920, within 2 days the metal flings destroyed the saws oil pump. Plus the stink of the gear oil on my work clothes that couldn't be washed out :D

Here's a product that was quite poplar back in the 1970's.
This was touted to replace bar oil. Just turn off adjustable oil pump and don't add bar oil to saw.
One can would last 40 tanks of fuel. Spray on bar and chain every time saw is refueled and one spray between refills
I used it in chainsaw speed cutting competitions.


 

Used gear lube is not the same as drain engine oil. One is constantly filtered,  one isnt. If you havw metal filings in your engine oil you have a lot more to worry about that your chainsaw. 

[HolmenTree]

Well my point was whether there's metal filings or not. Used engine oil after 5000 miles or more of use will be as black  as the ace of spades.

I sure in the heck wouldn't want that dirty stuff in my saw or on myself.

How about we try some nice blackened oil out of a screaming 353 Jimmy diesel :D   

[HolmenTree]

Here's a product that was quite poplar back in the 1970's.
This was touted to replace bar oil. Just turn off adjustable oil pump and don't add bar oil to saw.
One can would last 40 tanks of fuel. Spray on bar and chain every time saw is refueled.



 

Here's a further writeup about this TriFlon lubricant tested by loggers in Finland.


  

 

[Al_Smith]

Actually I was surprised that the oil really wasn't as black as it once was .2008 Mercury ,4.6 engine .It could be the tighter tolerances,better oil and better filters might have something to do with it.I'm still not going to use it for bar oil .

[HolmenTree]

I found this writeup in a 35 year old magazine, people even talked about this long before the internet :D


  

  

 

[Al_Smith]

Story time .I bought a big  old PNW classic from E-bay .Homelite 2100S ,redwood slayer .Evidently it had been used for a firewooder in it's later years because it had half a tank of black oil in it .How they ever got it started is beyond me because the decompression valve was inoperative.Fixed that, got it running,real good as a matter of fact and before I even put a bar on it I flushed the oiling system twice with kerosene .Luckily the system had not sustained any damage.That could have turned out badly  because parts for that saw are not that common .

[petefrom bearswamp]

Back in the dark ages, the late 50s and early 60s there was no such thing as bar oil, we just used 30 wt non detergent.
Bars were all hard nose not roller in them days.

[Caloren]

Back in 1971 my Father-in-law bought a Montgomery Wards [Remington] chainsaw and the manual said to use a 50/50 mix of kerosene and 30 wt motor oil for bar lube. No matter what brand he bought after that, Mac, Homelite, whatever, that 50/50 mix was all he used until he gave up using them in the late '90's. I don't believe he ever read another owners manual!

[Bob Rooker]

Folks, I need to tell you one thing for certain - DO NOT USE USED OIL!!  It is very carcinogenic!  Even horses will get skin cancer if they come in contact with it.  There is the infamous Bliss Oil Company case in Times Beach, Missouri where the entire town was ordered evacuated after Mr. Bliss had sprayed the horse arena and gravel streets with used motor oil and all the horses got skin cancer.  Their skin fell off like they had leprosy!  Every building was burned to the ground and the contaminated area was never inhabited, again.  Please don't use it!  :-[

[schmalts]

Do you eat bacon and ham?? I bet your odds of getting cancer are higher for that than if you used engine oil in your saw.

[Ianab]

Most of those "waste oil" contamination things have been due to something other than used engine oil getting in the mix. Like old electrical transformer oil containing PCB etc,

But that's the problem with "any old mystery oil". Unless you drain it out of the sump yourself you can't be 100% sure what's mixed in it.

[DelawhereJoe]

There is the infamous Bliss Oil Company case in Times Beach, Missouri where the entire town was ordered evacuated after Mr. Bliss had sprayed the horse arena and gravel streets with used motor oil and all the horses got skin cancer.  Their skin fell off like they had leprosy!  Every building was burned to the ground and the contaminated area was never inhabited, again.  Please don't use it!  :-[

I was aware that it caused cancer but they would have had to have been swimming in the used oil for months. I went and looked it up, it turns out that it was Dioxin that was mixed into the oil that was the problem. If oil was that bad I'd never touch the stuff again.

[HolmenTree]

Most of those "waste oil" contamination things have been due to something other than used engine oil getting in the mix. Like old electrical transformer oil containing PCB etc,

Yep good old toxic PCB cleanup can be very expensive.
Back in 1985 the Kenora,Ontario PCB highway spill was a big story. I hear there was a similar situation in Florida.

About a 100 mile section of the Trans Canada highway near Kenora, Ontario was contaminated with 400 liters of transformer oil containing 56% PCBs which leaked from a transformer being transported on a flat bed trailer.

By summers end the whole stretch of highway was tore up and resurfaced at the cost of millions of dollars in the cleanup process.
Not to mention the countless expense of quarantine and cleanup of vehicles that were sprayed by the oil.
Crazy stuff.

[DelawhereJoe]

Around here you don't need to look far for pcb's, ddt or dioxin...just go fishing all the fish in this state are contained. Including the near costal water for bluefish.