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Portable garage, or small pole barn style building? It's Gramps Birthday.

Started by Piston, October 19, 2013, 09:31:38 AM

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Piston

My grandfather lives on a mountain in NH.  He is one of 4 houses on his mountain/road.  They get a decent amount of snow and he is still pretty active.  Unless the roads aren't plowed, he goes downtown every morning for his coffee, run errands, and to get his mail.  He doesn't have a garage so he has always had to clean his car off when covered in snow. 

About 5 years ago, we got him one of those portable garages (cheapo $300 dollar unit) to keep his car in over the winter.  Well, it lasted about 3 years until a good storm came and collapsed it. 

The following winter he bought another one, and we assembled it for him.  That one lasted 2 years before a good storm came and collapsed it. 

I was thinking of buying him another one for his 95th birthday, which is this coming month.  Instead of another cheap one that will fall down in a bad storm, I was going to get him a "snow rated" portable garage from Shelter Logic.  They are much more expensive at around $1400 for a 12x25.  Then I started thinking, that although this is "snow rated", I doubt it is "NH snow rated"  :D  I'd hate to spend all that money only to throw it away when a bad storm came along. 

Then I started thinking that maybe I'll just buy 6 or 8 pressure treated posts, bury them in the ground about 4' or so at even spacing, and put 2 large top plates on top of the posts, forming a "wall".  Then either buy, or build, some trusses and throw a roof on it.  It doesn't need to have sides as the main goal is to just keep the snow off the car.  I really don't want him out in his driveway clearing a foot of snow off his roof, or even worse, NOT clearing it off and having it slide off in front of someone else when he is driving down the road. 

The main issue here is TIME!  I will only have 3 days or so to put something up.  This is the main reason I was considering a portable garage, because I could put that up in less than a day, and then actually relax for a day or two.  Then I started thinking about the pole barn idea and how hard it wouldn't really be. 

Does anyone have any advice on which way I should go?  Should I just bite the bullet and buy a portable garage and hope that the "snow rated" one will last considerably longer?  Or would I be able to get a pole barn style building up in just a few days?  It would be fairly small, 12' or 14' wide, and 20'-24' long.  I was thinking of having the roof trusses made to save time, and I can easily dig the holes with the post hole digger on the tractor. 

Any thoughts?
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Al_Smith

I'm looking into a portable type metal carport to keep an old relic of a Jeep in to protect it from the elements .Installed it's under 1000 dollars 15' by 19' and is considered personal property rather that real estate  improvement thus no property tax .Excessive property  taxes annoy me to no end .A subject I could pontificate on for hours but will forgo that conversation.

pineywoods

Single car, all metal portables go for $650 around here. I built a pole building like you describe for a mill shed. Took 2 days start to finish, including building the trusses. But I did have a helper, nail gun, and a tractor with forks.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Al_Smith

That price would be about right for a lighter build version with 5 foot side walls I suppose .The price I got was for 6 foot side walls ,heavier metal framework and 22 guage sheetmetal .There was only about 100 dollars diff over the lighter model .

As far as snow load I've never heard of even the light weights collapsing but this is Ohio not NH .

I've seen the canvas sheds and they are temporary at best .Fact just down the road a fellow had about 4 out of 6 of them get blown into the center of a 160 acre corn field the first big wind that blew up .

Piston

I didn't really think of a metal carport, that is another option I can look into. 

Quote from: pineywoods on October 19, 2013, 09:58:24 AM
I built a pole building like you describe for a mill shed. Took 2 days start to finish, including building the trusses. But I did have a helper, nail gun, and a tractor with forks.

I'm not sure I'll have a helper, but I'll have the tractor/forks and nail gun.  Can you give me some details of the pole building?  What did you use, and how did you set the poles? 

How did you make your own trusses?  I was also thinking I could use 3 large tie beams and put a ridge beam down the middle, then just use rafters instead of trusses, but I would think the trusses would be quicker. 

How do I find out how much, or what type of trusses I would need or what they would cost?  Is this a lumber yard thing? 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

beenthere

This pole shed extension (24' x 24') that was only rim boards, and trusses covered with plywood and shingles, took 3 guys 4 full days (that was after the poles were in and set).
Just tossed in for some comparison.
Will take a good day just to set, brace, and nail in the trusses if working alone, IMO. 
Think I'd go with the cheap and hope it lasts at least two years again. Gpa may outlast it if all goes well.


 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

thecfarm

2 feet deep would be plenty on the posts. that way you could buy 10 foot 4x4 pt and put them into the ground 2 feet. I did this with a horse run in,once every 4 feet years ago and it has done fine,so far.
Some of those metal carport has the steel roofing running the wrong way. the water runs off but the snow can not slide of from them. One of my friends has one and uses the snow rake to get the snow off
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

SPIKER

As someone mentioned the pole style would be property and subject to tax, maybe inspection? maybe permits?   The cheapo toss em up fabric structures are not as they last only a few years.   there also make aluminum car ports that are better cost more and last better with rounded top flat and rounded over side.

check for Farmtek they have several versions from cheap to very good ones and the fabric ones they have are top rated & warrantied for a long time.

Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

Piston

I've made some phone calls and got some more information. 

I called a couple different lumber yards regarding trusses.  (Let me say, it absolutely kills me to buy lumber when I have a perfectly good mill out back! :D)
I gave them a quick sketch of the width/pitch I'd like for the building, for them to come up with a truss design/cost.  It will be 1-2 weeks before I hear back from them. 

I ended up going with a 16' width and a 24' length, figuring that the trusses will be 2' on center I'll have 12 trusses to put up.

Then I called my town building inspector and assessors office for some info.  The building inspector said that indeed I would need a permit, he told me to sketch up what I want to build and send it in, it would be a small fee for the permit of around $40 or $50 and would take 1-2 days, so that is fine.  The assessor gave me a "worst case scenario" of adding roughly $45 per year on the tax bill.  That is fine with me. 

I'm thinking I would use 6"x6"x12' pressure treated posts, 4 per side. 
Is it okay to dig a hole with the post hole digger, and place the posts directly in the hole, and backfill with tamped gravel?  Or, do I need to pour concrete around the post?  I plan to bury 4' of the post and leave 8' sticking up in the air. 

I'm still haven't decided which way to go yet, but I'm leaning towards the pole barn idea for now.  Once I figure out how much it will cost then I'll be able to decide. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Piston

 Here is what I have so far.  Any advice for flooring materials?  I was thinking of putting some landscape fabric down, then crushed stone for drainage as the area get's puddled up and freezes in the winter, then more landscape fabric covered by gravel.  Does this sound like a good idea?  Should I use plastic somewhere as a vapor barrier?  I'll crown the middle for drainage. 


  

 

-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

scouter Joe

Piston you need 13 trusses not 12 for a 24' building . You have it right in the sketch . scouter Joe

Piston

Quote from: scouter Joe on October 23, 2013, 06:56:09 AM
Piston you need 13 trusses not 12 for a 24' building . You have it right in the sketch . scouter Joe

Oh ya  :D
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Jim_Rogers

The fence building book I read many years ago, said to back fill with crushed stone so that the water will drain and no wet dirt sits next to the wood. This is suppose to make the wood last longer.
The only place they said to but concrete would be at the surface as a collar around the post, if you wish.

That's what I did when I build one of my fences except I didn't use any concrete. Having a mill, I cut my own 4x4 fence posts and then painted the bottom 3 or 4' of the post with some wood preservative paint that I got from the hardware store. Back then it was Kuprinal (sp) #10 green, which I don't think you can buy any more.

Another customer of mine wanted to do a horse paddock fence and I milled 4x6 fence posts for her. She bought some fence post paint from Home depot that the paint department had to order in for her. It is for wood that is in direct contact with the soil. She painted the bottom 4' of her posts. The brand was Behr.

I would also suggest if you wanted to save money and you have the time to mill some posts for yourself for this project that you could do the short pole system.

This is you buy pressure treated stock and only use that below ground. Above ground you use your stock. You stand one over the other and sister some 2by stock (PT most likely) onto the sides at the vertical joint.
Like this:



 

Years from now if the below grade post rots out then you would just hold up the roof with a temporary support and dig out the rotten bottom post and replace it. No need to replace the entire post.

Just some ideas to pass along to you.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Piston

Jim,
When you built your fence, and painted the bottoms of the posts, did you use the timbers green, or let them dry a while? 

If I could get away with using green timbers by painting them, I could use my own logs/mill which would be nice.  I could also mill them larger than the 6x6 dimensions I can get from the lumber yard. 

I do have a white oak that came down in a storm last winter and could use that for posts instead of pine. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Hilltop366

Piston I would be tempted to use logs you have and later if required convert over to Jim's setup by cutting the post off and replacing the bottom.

For the roof framing with a short span like that some old stick frame style rafter framing with ridge board would be easy and faster than getting trusses unless you can find some trusses already made.

I was wondering if a few braces would be required in your drawing?

Your Gramps is lucky to have a you as a grandson! Happy birthday!

Jim_Rogers

Quote from: Piston on October 23, 2013, 07:36:57 AM
Jim,
When you built your fence, and painted the bottoms of the posts, did you use the timbers green, or let them dry a while? 

It was a very long time ago, I don't honestly remember but I would say most likely green.

Quote
If I could get away with using green timbers by painting them, I could use my own logs/mill which would be nice.  I could also mill them larger than the 6x6 dimensions I can get from the lumber yard. 

I do have a white oak that came down in a storm last winter and could use that for posts instead of pine.

Use what you got, white oak is very rot resistant and you may need some bracing and some proper hold downs so that the wind doesn't blow the roof away like a kite or sail.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Piston

Quote from: Hilltop366 on October 23, 2013, 07:51:20 AM
Piston I would be tempted to use logs you have and later if required convert over to Jim's setup by cutting the post off and replacing the bottom.

For the roof framing with a short span like that some old stick frame style rafter framing with ridge board would be easy and faster than getting trusses unless you can find some trusses already made.

I was wondering if a few braces would be required in your drawing?

Your Gramps is lucky to have a you as a grandson! Happy birthday!


Hilltop,
I was wondering the same thing about braces.  I'm sure they wouldn't hurt.  I was wondering that if they're buried 4' down into the ground, will that be sufficient strength and rigidity against wind side loads?  I suppose there won't be much side load with only the roof exposed to the wind?

Regarding using rafters and a ridge beam, I don't know how to size the rafters properly for the snow load, span, or pitch of the roof, which is the main reason I am avoiding using my own materials.  If I used something like 2x10's for rafters and a 2x12 for a ridge beam, would that be sufficient? 

I'm not "against" using rafters over trusses if it isn't going to take me too much longer to do it that way.  I'd be milling the lumber at home anyways, so that isn't included in my "time constraint" of a few days. 
I should mention too, that I'm fully aware there is a good chance this wouldn't be finished right away.  The most important part is that I get the posts in the ground and set by the time the ground freezes.  I could always come back the following month to finish the roof, I'd just prefer to start and finish it and be done with it. 
(Some day I'd like to just go up there and relax you know ;D)
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

thecfarm

Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Jim_Rogers

In order to correctly size and space the rafter stock we'd need to know what the actual snow load is for his location. Your building inspector could tell you that.

And we'd need to know what type of wood you'd want to use. Then we can use the online red toolbox calculator here on the forum to figure out the size and spacing of the rafters.

Also, if you are going to talk to the building inspector to get the snow load, you could mention that you may want to do it with your own stock and see what he says. Hopefully he won't ask you to have it graded.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

beenthere

Piston
The first thing I'd suggest, is drop the expectation that this will just be "a few days". ;)

That will help keep your sanity and you will not be disappointed.

You have a number of things to figure out, but if on a short leash then setting the posts, setting in the rim boards (leveling and notching into the posts, or bolting them on?), setting up the trusses with help from some 16' bracing boards or 2x, adding additional bracing to keep everything level and then whatever you decide on roofing (I missed if going to be shingles over plywood sheathing or if stripping the trusses and putting up metal roofing) will take a fair amount of time.

Wish you well on the planning and gathering of materials.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Piston

Beenthere,
I have accepted the fact that this will be a longer project that I was originally planning  :D

Jim,
I called the building inspector, he said that I could use my own ungraded lumber as long as it was not going to be an occupied residence, so anything from garage/barn/outbuilding and so on.

The snow load is 90 lbs/sq foot. 

I'd more than likely be using EWP. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Jim_Rogers

Can you either post the plan here or in the plans section and I can download it and look at the roof area?

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Piston

Jim,
I'm not at the computer with the file stored on it but I'll do so tonight. Actually, the file is pretty basic, I just threw that quick sketch together to satisfy the lumber yards needs. I haven't actually made a real model yet, I wanted to wait and see what the prices were going to look like before spending much time on it.

The roof is a 6/12 pitch and 24' long. Not sure if that is enough info or not?  I did go on the toolbox and messed around a bit but couldn't figure out how to get the dimension needed.



I did look on craigslist real quick and didn't see anything that matches up to what I'd like to do, but there is a garage truss package in there for a 20'x24' gambrel building including floor trusses for a bonus room up top.
I'm sure it isn't rated for a 90lb snow load though.
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Stephen1

I am going to throw my comment in. Gramps is 95, I would think one of these would out last him. I picked up a shelter logic, 2 years ago, and it has held up quite well to our snow load here. I mounted it on 8x8 pine beams. We are at 60lbs snow load. It is enclosed on the sides and the ends if you want. I picked up from Habitat for Humanity reuse store, for 250$ , 10x12x20. I see we have the same on on sale at the Canadian Tire for 275$ . I use the one I have now for a quick storage of my table slabs I needed to protect.
A permanent structure you never regret though.
All the best on on what you decide
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

Hilltop366

Quote from: Piston on October 23, 2013, 09:46:19 AM
Quote from: Hilltop366 on October 23, 2013, 07:51:20 AM
Piston I would be tempted to use logs you have and later if required convert over to Jim's setup by cutting the post off and replacing the bottom.

For the roof framing with a short span like that some old stick frame style rafter framing with ridge board would be easy and faster than getting trusses unless you can find some trusses already made.

I was wondering if a few braces would be required in your drawing?

Your Gramps is lucky to have a you as a grandson! Happy birthday!


Hilltop,
I was wondering the same thing about braces.  I'm sure they wouldn't hurt.  I was wondering that if they're buried 4' down into the ground, will that be sufficient strength and rigidity against wind side loads?  I suppose there won't be much side load with only the roof exposed to the wind?

Regarding using rafters and a ridge beam, I don't know how to size the rafters properly for the snow load, span, or pitch of the roof, which is the main reason I am avoiding using my own materials.  If I used something like 2x10's for rafters and a 2x12 for a ridge beam, would that be sufficient? 

I'm not "against" using rafters over trusses if it isn't going to take me too much longer to do it that way.  I'd be milling the lumber at home anyways, so that isn't included in my "time constraint" of a few days. 
I should mention too, that I'm fully aware there is a good chance this wouldn't be finished right away.  The most important part is that I get the posts in the ground and set by the time the ground freezes.  I could always come back the following month to finish the roof, I'd just prefer to start and finish it and be done with it. 
(Some day I'd like to just go up there and relax you know ;D)

Cutting out rafters is not hard to do once you have one just copy an cut it goes pretty quick, if you take the time  to get your top plates even and straight you could pre-cut the rafters and have them ready to go it should not take much longer than putting up trusses and will be easier to handle,  not sure on the lumber size but would guess a 2x6 24" oc  would be a place to start to check.

A ridge board (goes in between the rafter tops) can be a 1x but I find a 2x easier to toe nail the rafter to.

A brace from the top of first and last rafter down to bottom cross tie will keep the whole roof from moving end to end. As Jim mentioned some hurricane ties would be a good plan too.

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